Was James confused?

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GodsGrace

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they were temporary coverings for sin.
Now think about this... Christ was the unblemished lamb that was the sacrifice for..... SIN. Now look back in the old testament and see what all the animal sacrifices were for.
When Christ came to the world to take the place of the animal sacrifices and become the final sacrifice for sins he essentially eliminated the need for the entire sacrificial system right? so all those Jews who would convert to the new covenant had not need to perform any of the sacrificial works of the law anymore because they could now offer Christ as the sacrificed lamb to permanently cover their sins.
This is why there were many discussions about the Jewish laws / customs since it required them to change the habits of many generations.
Right.
Also why some Jews were thinking of going back to the Jewish religion after having known the saving grace of Jesus to which Paul preached to them not to.
Galatians
Hebrews
 
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GodsGrace

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Indeed, none of us can keep the law. And the law does not recognize our 'trying'to keep it.

Jesus did fulfill the law. I believe we have answered what fulfill means already. I don't think it means 'more complete'. It means Jesus has fufilled all that the Law says. For it all spake of Him. For us Christians however, the law has been removed from having any legal force over us. (1 Cor. 3:11) Read also (1 Cor. 3:7-10).

I know it is often said that some believe grace means it is ok to sin. But I have never met a believer who has said that or acted like that. I have found that usually, because a believer takes a certain doctrinal position, he will be accused of saying that, when in reality he isn't. This occurred with Paul. He preached grace. (Rom.5:21) And he knew his preaching of grace would cause people to say they can sin all they want. (Rom. 6:1) But he told them "God forbid". (6:2) But he still preached grace. I find myself when I listen to a preacher or Bible teacher trying to see if I could accuse them of seeming to say 'I can sin all I want' by the grace that is in their message. Most always it is an emphatic no. So, I believe, that if you haven't taught or preached grace to the degree that you can be accused of telling people they can sin all they want, then you haven't yet preached grace.
I agree with what you've said. I do believe, however, that new Christians must have a difficult time with this thin red line.
I like Joseph Prince, for instance. He teaches hyper grace.
He says we're not even supposed to ask forgiveness for sins.
John clearly says we are in chapter 20 (22?). Who are we to believe?
John, of course!

You said, "God is grace", and then "But Jesus said follow His commandments." These commandments cannot be the Mosaic Law. (John 1:17) "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
I also said that grace does not nulllify the Law.
The New Covenant changes HOW we keep the commandments of God.
God has not changed His mind. He demands obedience.
When you say "the Mosaic Law" you cover a lot of ground.
The Ceremonial Law has been abolished.
The Civil Law has been abolished.
The Moral Law can NEVER be abolished because God IS morality.
The 10 commandments are the moral law.
God's grace has been loving enough and great enough to supply us with what we needed to keep the commandments as best we could.
Before it was VERY DIFFICULT.

Paul certainly provides what we as believers need under the New Covenant and gives in many places how we are to act. But he is not giving it as law. There is no 'thou shalt' or 'thou shalt' not. His appeal to our obedience is usually based on who we are in Christ. (Rom.12:1) "I beseech you therefore, brethren..."

As to future instructions, that which Christ revealed to Paul and the other disciples who wrote the New Testament. But most especially to Paul.

Stranger

You say that Paul gives us instructions and tells us how to act.
You've said that rules are not necessary in the past.
(like when we mentioned marriage)
Is this a contradiction??
 

GodsGrace

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I failed to give the chapter in my second paragraph showing where Abraham was declared righteous by God. I have since edited it. It is (Gen. 15:6). And here you can see that it was not when Abraham left Ur that he was declared righteous by God. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

I believe also that Abraham had faith when he left Ur. But it was a faith with a work attached and so God did not count that faith for righteousness.

Was he saved at Ur? At this stage I would say he was definitely going to be saved.

Stranger
I THINK I agree!
 

GodsGrace

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shades of the Hebrews, wanting to go back to Egypt there, ya
They were raised with their religion and really practiced it --- not like some today in any religion.

They must have been very torn and unsure at times.
It's a true miracle Christianity even continued.
Acts Gamalial. Too tired to look it up...
Manana...

P.S....

He said if it's not from God it'll just disappear.
If it IS from God, nothing can stop it...
 
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pia

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And you "KNOW" because you have seen Him, you say. So, you don't walk by faith/belief in Jesus because you have already seen Jesus?
Would you say He has been revealed to you, as described in the verses below?

1 John 3:2
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

1 Peter 1:8
"...whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,.."
I have not seen the Father, If that is what you are asking...It's funny, people have asked me before, why I get is so easy ( by knowing that He is a reality )...BELIEVE me, this is not easy, not by a long shot...Of course I live by faith every single day.....I got to ask Him questions for a little while, I didn't get to hang out with Him for 3 years straight....
There are still many many things I am awaiting revelation about, or things I yet do not fully understand, but I have to be patient.
Just a an example, I started asking Him years ago, to please explain Revelations to me, and He took me to Genesis, right at the beginning. He did this many times over a period of a couple of years.....About the 3rd. or 4th time He did, I began feeling really stupid in myself , as if I just wasn't getting it......But as we did more and more, I began to see, that even the first chapter of Genesis, has so very very much to say and teach us and from then on I got excited every time we would get back to Genesis....
John is writing this after being with Jesus after His resurrection, correct ? And was John also not at the Mount of Transfiguration? So perhaps this verse is speaking of the Father ? For sure we don't know what we shall be, but if we are to be resurrected as Christ is, we should be getting new bodies, perhaps like Jesus has, which are
uncorruptible and indestructible, so not like our flesh and blood bodies...
I truly don't know, I have never thought to ask that...You get a real sense of just trust when with Him. When He says something, your entire being just goes :" Ok" and you get a knowing within you, that it is the Truth He is speaking, so some things you kind of just leave with Him. Don't think I have ever questioned Him about anything He has said to me, but I sure had a lot of questions about the world and the state of it, and going to church and failure and all sorts of things, and I will be forever grateful for His patience with all that.
Peter also spent time with Jesus after his resurrection so perhaps he too is writing of seeing the Father ?
I think it marvelous all the people who believe in Him, and all I ever do is tell people that He is as real today as He was post resurrection.....Trying to share that He is right by them / you, He knows every thought we have, knows every word we speak, sees every deed we do AND He knows our motives behind them...Nothing of us is hidden from Him, but most Christians I have met stop short of reaching out and connecting with Him.
We are told to live by Faith in God our Father, and that every one of us have to do that by holding on to Jesus till the end...He helps us through always, knowing that He is reality, doesn't negate that. I do really get confused that Christians don't want to gt to know Him as real ? At first I had thought any Christian would have happily reached out to Him and we would all then come together in Him, but that was not to be so, at least not yet....
Hope you have a lovely day.......Be blessed in His Love.......Pia
 

Stranger

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I agree with what you've said. I do believe, however, that new Christians must have a difficult time with this thin red line.
I like Joseph Prince, for instance. He teaches hyper grace.
He says we're not even supposed to ask forgiveness for sins.
John clearly says we are in chapter 20 (22?). Who are we to believe?
John, of course!


I also said that grace does not nulllify the Law.
The New Covenant changes HOW we keep the commandments of God.
God has not changed His mind. He demands obedience.
When you say "the Mosaic Law" you cover a lot of ground.(2
The Ceremonial Law has been abolished.
The Civil Law has been abolished.
The Moral Law can NEVER be abolished because God IS morality.
The 10 commandments are the moral law.
God's grace has been loving enough and great enough to supply us with what we needed to keep the commandments as best we could.
Before it was VERY DIFFICULT.



You say that Paul gives us instructions and tells us how to act.
You've said that rules are not necessary in the past.
(like when we mentioned marriage)
Is this a contradiction??

I don't believe in a 'hyper-grace'. Grace as it is, is hyper. Joseph Prince, who I don't know, is not teaching hyper-grace. He is teaching a lie. You ask who are you to believe? Believe the Scriptures.

You said earlier that keeping a rule or law after you are saved does not negate grace. Wherein I said any rule or law that takes away any position you obtained by grace does negate grace. Now you say that grace does not nullify the law. But what of (2 Cor. 3:7-11)? My apologies for giving again the wrong reference in my post #409. It should be (2 Cor. 3:7-11). I edited and changed it. Been a long day.

Grace does nullify the law in that the law has no power over us. It has no jurisdiction. It cannot reach us. Thus it is nullified. When I say the Law, I do cover a lot of ground. All of it. All of the law. The moral law we call the 10 commandments cannot reach us. We are dead in Christ, thus the law has no power over us. It has no authority over a dead man.

I do not see any contradiction in what Paul says and in what we discussed concerning marriage. I think I was clear that Paul laid down no laws. Do you have laws your husband must obey. Does your husband have laws that you must obey. And if you don't obey, that is it. Or, do you just do what you do out of love toward each other? And when you both fail, you learn to forgive and go on. Understand I need to heed my own advice here. As I have been married quite some time and I personally don't understand how anyone stays together. So, Paul is not laying down laws. And law is not going to keep a marriage. Thus I see no contradiction.

Stranger
 
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KBCid

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I also said that grace does not nulllify the Law.
The New Covenant changes HOW we keep the commandments of God.
God has not changed His mind. He demands obedience.

When you say "the Mosaic Law" you cover a lot of ground.
The Ceremonial Law has been abolished.
The Civil Law has been abolished.
The Moral Law can NEVER be abolished because God IS morality. The 10 commandments are the moral law.
God's grace has been loving enough and great enough to supply us with what we needed to keep the commandments as best we could.

I bow to the truth

I humbly submit the two commandments that the prior 10 came from and I'm sure now that you know them anyway;
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
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KBCid

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Right.
Also why some Jews were thinking of going back to the Jewish religion after having known the saving grace of Jesus to which Paul preached to them not to. Galatians Hebrews

Thankyou Lord for allowing me to see your truth in others.
 

KBCid

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Grace does nullify the law in that the law has no power over us. It has no jurisdiction. It cannot reach us. Thus it is nullified. When I say the Law, I do cover a lot of ground. All of it. All of the law. The moral law we call the 10 commandments cannot reach us. We are dead in Christ, thus the law has no power over us. It has no authority over a dead man. Stranger

If the moral law contained in the 10 commandments which came from the royal 2 commandments doesn't reach you then you cannot know God. God is holy and he wants us to be holy too as it is written;
Matt 5:8 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our bodies of flesh may be dead to the dictates of the mosaic laws but our soul is to live unto Gods commands and we should do our best to live up to Christ's example that showed us how to live a Godlike existence.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness....
Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth
Luke 14:12–14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind...


God commanded a number of commands for our souls moral compass. Tell me which of the moral commands do you feel it is ok not to obey if one calls himself a Christian?

Tell me which of the following commandments do you think it is ok for your soul to not obey?
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
 
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Stranger

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If the moral law contained in the 10 commandments which came from the royal 2 commandments doesn't reach you then you cannot know God. God is holy and he wants us to be holy too as it is written;
Matt 5:8 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our bodies of flesh may be dead to the dictates of the mosaic laws but our soul is to live unto Gods commands and we should do our best to live up to Christ's example that showed us how to live a Godlike existence.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness....
Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth
Luke 14:12–14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind...


God commanded a number of commands for our souls moral compass. Tell me which of the moral commands do you feel it is ok not to obey if one calls himself a Christian?

Tell me which of the following commandments do you think it is ok for your soul to not obey?
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Tell me which ones you obey?

Stranger
 

Helen

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If the moral law contained in the 10 commandments which came from the royal 2 commandments doesn't reach you then you cannot know God. God is holy and he wants us to be holy too as it is written;
Matt 5:8 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our bodies of flesh may be dead to the dictates of the mosaic laws but our soul is to live unto Gods commands and we should do our best to live up to Christ's example that showed us how to live a Godlike existence.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness....
Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth
Luke 14:12–14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind...


God commanded a number of commands for our souls moral compass. Tell me which of the moral commands do you feel it is ok not to obey if one calls himself a Christian?

Tell me which of the following commandments do you think it is ok for your soul to not obey?
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

I am confused...Your post #428 which I gave a 'like' to...and then now your post #430 seems to contradict what you said in #428!! Or maybe I am just too tired and brain-dead tonight and can't read in a straight line.

When Stranger said the 10 commandments did not reach him...I am sure he was saying that it first passed through Jesus. The moral law is 'within Christ' and we are In Christ..therefore the judgement of the law does not reach us. He and He aline did and does fulfill it.
The 10 commandment listed..change as they came through the cross ..in Christ and become the 10 PROMISES!!
In Christ/Love Himself:-
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
These things we will not do because we are 'in the Lord Jesus Christ'..
THIS is the change of nature...from ours old nature into His.
That is the walk of faith.
We continue to keep looking at each others flesh and saying.." but they are not.. they do not..."
And...looking through the eyes of the flesh we are far from perfect...but...when we look at our brothers and sisters and see them as God sees them..'in Christ' they are perfect. Not because their walk is perfect...but because GOD says that they are. That is our blessed hope. Ps 103;10 "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."
When we get up in the morning we must choose who's life we are going to live...ours or His.
Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."
That is our choice..either our weak and failing life..or HIS?
We can either look and each other and see the weak and failing life of the flesh..or we can choose to "see Christ in them."
If we are going to win this...and be the Overcomers that God has called us to be...at sometime we must start imputing the integrity that God has inputed through Jesus.
Sometime..(and lets pray it be sooner rather than later)...we must all- 'live and move and have our being, in Him' ...and quit seeing everything 'in the flesh and in this world...it's time we matured and starting seeing with the anointed eyes of the Kingdom realm.

You mentioned that God is Holy and He wants us to be Holy.
When are we going to agree with Him that according to His word..we are...NOT in ourselves, but in Jesus Christ! ✟

....H
 
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ScottA

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If the moral law contained in the 10 commandments which came from the royal 2 commandments doesn't reach you then you cannot know God. God is holy and he wants us to be holy too as it is written;
Matt 5:8 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our bodies of flesh may be dead to the dictates of the mosaic laws but our soul is to live unto Gods commands and we should do our best to live up to Christ's example that showed us how to live a Godlike existence.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness....
Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth
Luke 14:12–14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind...


God commanded a number of commands for our souls moral compass. Tell me which of the moral commands do you feel it is ok not to obey if one calls himself a Christian?

Tell me which of the following commandments do you think it is ok for your soul to not obey?
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
If it is true that those who are in Christ no longer live, but Christ who lives in them (and it is). Then who are you saying should be perfect and keep the law...those who have nothing to do with Christ, or Christ? Because, there are no others who remain.

If you are referring to those who have nothing to do with Christ: they are not under the law.

If to Christ: then He has kept it and does keep it, and has no need to be told to keep it.
 
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GodsGrace

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If it is true that those who are in Christ no longer live, but Christ who lives in them (and it is). Then who are you saying should be perfect and keep the law...those who have nothing to do with Christ, or Christ? Because, there are no others who remain.

If you are referring to those who have nothing to do with Christ: they are not under the law.

If to Christ: then He has kept it and does keep it, and has no need to be told to keep it.
This is why there is so much confusion in the church today.
CHRIST does not need to keep any Law.
He's God. He's in heaven.

WE need to keep the Laws of God.
JESUS Himself said to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Mathew 5:48

Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect. He meant that we are to be as perfect as we can because we love God. God is good to us. We know have the identity of God, so we are also to be good to others. IOW, we are to behave as God would want us to.

@ByGrace is confused and I don't blame her.
She's changing the 10 commandments into 10 promises.
It could be understood this way, nothing wrong with it.

But she or someone she heard or read has done this for our spiritual edification. However, Jesus NEVER changed the 10 commandments into anything other than the 10 commandments.

@Stranger explained the born again experience very well and I believe we're agreed on everything except HOW we can explain our duties to God.

Jesus made it simple.
We make it difficult.

If you're saying that Christ lives through us, then realize what you're saying...

It would mean that when we sin, it is JESUS sinning since it is HE who lives through us.

If HE lives through us, why do we still sin???

Paul is trying to explain the new life.
PAUL does NOT say that we are not to live holy lives.
There is no discrepancy in the bible.
Jesus
Paul
James
All said the same.

If Paul in Romans and 1 Corinthians is telling us what NOT TO DO,
He is, in effect, telling us WHAT TO DO.
Romans 13:8-13
Do Not Commit Adultery
Do Not Commit Murder
Do Not Steal
Do Not Covet
Lay Aside The Deeds of Darkness
(let us be perfect)
Behave properly
Do Not Be Jealous
Do Not Become Drunk
etc.
THIS IS PAUL SPEAKING.

Romans 9:24
Paul says to run the race as one that will win the prize.
HEAVEN is the prize.

Bible Dictionaries
Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament
Prize
https://greek/gw.html
According to the Gospels, reward (μισθός) finds a place in the teaching of the Kingdom of God. But the doctrine is redeemed from mercenariness by the fact that the reward is reckoned of grace and not of debt (Matthew 20:1-16, Luke 17:10) as well as by the nature of the reward. It is no mere external or material reward. Generally speaking, it is the Kingdom of God or, according to the Fourth Gospel, eternal life, that our Lord sets before His followers as the reward to which they may look forward. The blessedness which is to be theirs consists in the attainment of that moral perfection after which they strive. They that hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled: the merciful shall obtain mercy: the pure in heart shall see God.

The same doctrine is found in the apostolic writings. But here the reward is described as a prize. This phraseology is most common in the speeches and Epistles of St. Paul, but it occurs also in the Epistles of St. James and St. John and in the Revelation of St. John. The imagery is taken from the Greek games which occupied such a large place in Greek life and were invested with almost religious significance. The four great festivals were the Isthmian, the Nemean, the Olympian, and the Pythian games. Of these the Olympian were pre-eminent in theory, being the chief national festival of the Greeks, and in practice they outlasted all the others, continuing to be celebrated till the reign of Theodosius. But when the Epistles of St. Paul were written the chief interest of Greece was in the Isthmian games, which also from their proximity to Corinth were likely to supply the Apostle with the metaphors of the foot-race, the pugilistic contest, and the prize, of which he makes frequent use. The Isthmian games were held on the Isthmus of Corinth, in a grove of pine-trees sacred to Poseidon, near the shrines of the Isthmian Poseidon and Melicertes, in the first month of spring, in the second and fourth year of each Olympiad. The contests consisted of gymnastic exercises, horse races, and competitions in music. Besides the customary palm the prize in Pindar’s time consisted of a wreath of dry σέλινον (often translated ‘parsley,’ but more probably identical with the ‘wild celery’-apium graveolens). After the destruction of Corinth, a crown of pine-leaves was substituted for it. The Nemean games, which were celebrated in the valley of Nemea in the territory of the Argive town Cleonae, consisted of gymnastic, equestrian, and musical contests. The prize was a palm-branch and a garland of fresh σέλινον. The Olympian games, held in honour of Zeus at Olympia in the Peloponnesian district of Pisatis, consisted of foot-races, chariot-races, leaping, quoit and spear throwing, wrestling and boxing; and the prize was a wreath of the leaves of the sacred wild olive, said to have been originally planted by Heracles, which had been cut with a golden knife. The Pythian games, held on the Crissaean plain below Delphi, consisted of gymnastic and athletic contests similar to those held at Olympia, with the addition of musical ceremonies. The prizes were a wreath from the sacred bay-tree in the Vale of Tempe and a palm-branch (Seyffert, Dict. Class. Ant., pp. 326, 413, 427, 531).
 
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GodsGrace

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I am confused...Your post #428 which I gave a 'like' to...and then now your post #430 seems to contradict what you said in #428!! Or maybe I am just too tired and brain-dead tonight and can't read in a straight line.

When Stranger said the 10 commandments did not reach him...I am sure he was saying that it first passed through Jesus. The moral law is 'within Christ' and we are In Christ..therefore the judgement of the law does not reach us. He and He aline did and does fulfill it.
The 10 commandment listed..change as they came through the cross ..in Christ and become the 10 PROMISES!!
In Christ/Love Himself:-
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
  5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. “You shall not murder.
  7. “You shall not commit adultery.
  8. “You shall not steal.
  9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
These things we will not do because we are 'in the Lord Jesus Christ'..
THIS is the change of nature...from ours old nature into His.
That is the walk of faith.
We continue to keep looking at each others flesh and saying.." but they are not.. they do not..."
And...looking through the eyes of the flesh we are far from perfect...but...when we look at our brothers and sisters and see them as God sees them..'in Christ' they are perfect. Not because their walk is perfect...but because GOD says that they are. That is our blessed hope. Ps 103;10 "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."
When we get up in the morning we must choose who's life we are going to live...ours or His.
Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."
That is our choice..either our weak and failing life..or HIS?
We can either look and each other and see the weak and failing life of the flesh..or we can choose to "see Christ in them."
If we are going to win this...and be the Overcomers that God has called us to be...at sometime we must start imputing the integrity that God has inputed through Jesus.
Sometime..(and lets pray it be sooner rather than later)...we must all- 'live and move and have our being, in Him' ...and quit seeing everything 'in the flesh and in this world...it's time we matured and starting seeing with the anointed eyes of the Kingdom realm.

You mentioned that God is Holy and He wants us to be Holy.
When are we going to agree with Him that according to His word..we are...NOT in ourselves, but in Jesus Christ! ✟

....H
I agree with the entire second half of your post.

I don't understand why we can't make it simple and just say that God demands obedience and we are to obey Him.

Some say Christ lives through us,
You say we live in Christ.

These are words and concepts.
The concrete part of Chrisitianity is that we are to emmulate Jesus.
It's that simple.

If we do our best,
Jesus will do the rest.
 
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GodsGrace

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I don't believe in a 'hyper-grace'. Grace as it is, is hyper. Joseph Prince, who I don't know, is not teaching hyper-grace. He is teaching a lie. You ask who are you to believe? Believe the Scriptures.

You said earlier that keeping a rule or law after you are saved does not negate grace. Wherein I said any rule or law that takes away any position you obtained by grace does negate grace. Now you say that grace does not nullify the law. But what of (2 Cor. 3:7-11)? My apologies for giving again the wrong reference in my post #409. It should be (2 Cor. 3:7-11). I edited and changed it. Been a long day.

Grace does nullify the law in that the law has no power over us. It has no jurisdiction. It cannot reach us. Thus it is nullified. When I say the Law, I do cover a lot of ground. All of it. All of the law. The moral law we call the 10 commandments cannot reach us. We are dead in Christ, thus the law has no power over us. It has no authority over a dead man.

I do not see any contradiction in what Paul says and in what we discussed concerning marriage. I think I was clear that Paul laid down no laws. Do you have laws your husband must obey. Does your husband have laws that you must obey. And if you don't obey, that is it. Or, do you just do what you do out of love toward each other? And when you both fail, you learn to forgive and go on. Understand I need to heed my own advice here. As I have been married quite some time and I personally don't understand how anyone stays together. So, Paul is not laying down laws. And law is not going to keep a marriage. Thus I see no contradiction.

Stranger

You don't know Joseph Prince but you know he's teaching a lie???
How could this be???

Joseph Prince teaches hyper-grace.
There IS such a movement - because you're not familiar with the term does not mean it doesn't exist. You should find out about it - you might be a member of that movement.

God IS grace.
God DOES require us to obey Him.

Does His grace nullify the fact that He demands obedience?
WHEN did God stop demanding obedience?

See John 14:15
JESUS said this, not me.

It sounds like those who speak as you do are saying that it is no longer necessary to obey since Jesus did it all and "fulfilled" the Law.

I know you addressed this in your 3 page post. I know what you mean, but I'll be a new Christian doesn't. I'll be he's feeling that he could do whatever he wants because Jesus has his back.

It's interesting to know what Ignatius of Antioch thought about works and salvation. He was a student of John the Apostle.

“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)

The Didache, the teachings of the Apostles, was probably written closer to the year 90 AD. It speaks as to what we are to DO.

Mark 7:7-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 ‘A)">But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the B)">tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your C)">tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘D)">Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘E)">He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to a]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-24474a">[a]be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is F)">Corban (that is to say, b]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-24475b">[b]given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your G)">tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”




2 Timothy 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 A)">All Scripture is a]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-29870a">[a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for b]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-29870b">[b]training in righteousness; 17 so that B)">the man of God may be adequate, C)">equipped for every good work.

Where does Paul say that we are not to follow the commandments?
He just says that we are not UNDER THE LAW.
In Romans He asks if we should sin more so that grace may abound.
What does Paul answer?
MAY IT NEVER BE!

We should keep God's desire for us simple.


 
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Stranger

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Why put down someone who is trying to be a Christian the way Jesus intended him to?

Well, 'the way Jesus intended' is what we are discussing. Isn't it? So, I apparently disagree with KBCid in his question as to which commandments I believe I should disobey.

I don't see it as a put down, but a disagreement. And, it is an important one.

Stranger
 

GodsGrace

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Well, 'the way Jesus intended' is what we are discussing. Isn't it? So, I apparently disagree with KBCid in his question as to which commandments I believe I should disobey.

I don't see it as a put down, but a disagreement. And, it is an important one.

Stranger
You asked him which commandments he keeps.
You know very well that we cannot keep the commandments perfectly.
That does not mean that we should do away with them.

The word fulfull is a problem.
The word law is a problem.
The word believe is a problem.

Maybe we should be discussing what these words mean??
Lata.
 
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Stranger

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You don't know Joseph Prince but you know he's teaching a lie???
How could this be???

Joseph Prince teaches hyper-grace.
There IS such a movement - because you're not familiar with the term does not mean it doesn't exist. You should find out about it - you might be a member of that movement.

God IS grace.
God DOES require us to obey Him.

Does His grace nullify the fact that He demands obedience?
WHEN did God stop demanding obedience?

See John 14:15
JESUS said this, not me.

It sounds like those who speak as you do are saying that it is no longer necessary to obey since Jesus did it all and "fulfilled" the Law.

I know you addressed this in your 3 page post. I know what you mean, but I'll be a new Christian doesn't. I'll be he's feeling that he could do whatever he wants because Jesus has his back.

It's interesting to know what Ignatius of Antioch thought about works and salvation. He was a student of John the Apostle.

“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)

The Didache, the teachings of the Apostles, was probably written closer to the year 90 AD. It speaks as to what we are to DO.

Mark 7:7-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 ‘A)">But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the B)">tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your C)">tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘D)">Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘E)">He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to a]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-24474a">[a]be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is F)">Corban (that is to say, b]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-24475b">[b]given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your G)">tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”




2 Timothy 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 A)">All Scripture is a]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-29870a">[a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for b]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-29870b">[b]training in righteousness; 17 so that B)">the man of God may be adequate, C)">equipped for every good work.

Where does Paul say that we are not to follow the commandments?
He just says that we are not UNDER THE LAW.
In Romans He asks if we should sin more so that grace may abound.
What does Paul answer?
MAY IT NEVER BE!

We should keep God's desire for us simple.


You ask me '"where does Paul say that we are not to follow the commandments?" First tell me what you believe (2 Cor. 3:7-11) means. I gave these verses in my last post.

Stranger