Was James confused?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You asked him which commandments he keeps.
You know very well that we cannot keep the commandments perfectly.
That does not mean that we should do away with them.

The word fulfull is a problem.
The word law is a problem.
The word believe is a problem.

Maybe we should be discussing what these words mean??
Lata.

We are not the ones doing away with them. It is God who has placed us in the position we as Christians are in, so that the law has no authority over us.

Yes, I know we cannot keep the law. That is why God gave it. He shows us we cannot measure up. All the law does is condemn you.

I myself am convinced that you or I, if we kept the law perfectly, we would not be what God wants.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,157
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I agree with the entire second half of your post.

I don't understand why we can't make it simple and just say that God demands obedience and we are to obey Him.

Some say Christ lives through us,
You say we live in Christ.

These are words and concepts.
The concrete part of Chrisitianity is that we are to emmulate Jesus.
It's that simple.

If we do our best,
Jesus will do the rest.

When all is said and done it seems that much of what is seen as conflicting beliefs on this site really come down to different wording.
In a nut shell if we do as Jesus said and " Abide in Me and I in you..you WILL ( not must, not try, etc..) but will bring forth much fruit.."

So..Abiding in Him...solves all the semantics of works v grace, faith and grace, faith and works or anything else.
By... Abiding in Him ...we will be keeping any and every law!
So simple yet so profound.

So easy, but some still prefer to believe that we 'as mere humans' must continue to work at keeping laws...rather than Labour ( work) to enter... and ABIDE.
Heb 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief...."
I believe that is the 'good fight of faith' that Paul spoke of...entering by Faith, not by the sweat of our brow..and ABIDING there...in His bosom.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009 and ScottA

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
You ask me '"where does Paul say that we are not to follow the commandments?" First tell me what you believe (2 Cor. 3:7-11) means. I gave these verses in my last post.

Stranger
Answer a question with a question.
Ok.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
What have we been discussing ?
Have we not been discussing the difference between the OC and the NC?
I've said all along that the NC is better.
It's the one for which all the covenants strive, beginning with the Edenic.

I've been saying all along that we still must obey the commandments.
The METHOD by which we obey them had changed,,,not the commandments.

Before they were chisdled in stone, nw on our heart.
Jeremiah
Ezekieli

But they are still chiseled somewhere!

Why?
Do you believe 2 Corinthians 3 is removing the commandments?
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Answer a question with a question.
Ok.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
What have we been discussing ?
Have we not been discussing the difference between the OC and the NC?
I've said all along that the NC is better.
It's the one for which all the covenants strive, beginning with the Edenic.

I've been saying all along that we still must obey the commandments.
The METHOD by which we obey them had changed,,,not the commandments.

Before they were chisdled in stone, nw on our heart.
Jeremiah
Ezekieli

But they are still chiseled somewhere!

Why?
Do you believe 2 Corinthians 3 is removing the commandments?

Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it. (2 Cor. 3:11)

Let me ask a question. I say we don't have to follow the law, and I acknowledge that I cannot keep the law. You say you are to follow the law, but acknowledge also that you cannot keep the law.

Are not you and I in the same boat here? If not why?

Stranger
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
When all is said and done it seems that much of what is seen as conflicting beliefs on this site really come down to different wording.
In a nut shell if we do as Jesus said and " Abide in Me and I in you..you WILL ( not must, not try, etc..) but will bring forth much fruit.."

So..Abiding in Him...solves all the semantics of works v grace, faith and grace, faith and works or anything else.
By... Abiding in Him ...we will be keeping any and every law!
So simple yet so profound.

So easy, but we some still prefer to believe that we 'as mere humans' must continue to work at keeping laws...rather than Labour ( work) to enter... and ABIDE.
Heb 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief...."
I believe that is the 'good fight of faith' that Paul spoke of...entering by Faith, not by the sweat of our brow..and ABIDING there...in His bosom.
I agree.
But then you ruined it with the works thing.

We are all here because we're born again .
No One is here because of their works.
We're all here because we have faith in Jesus and His grace.

Now what?
Do we sit back and do nothing?
Do we still be the commandments?

Easy yes or no answers.
My answer...
No
Yes
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it. (2 Cor. 3:11)

Let me ask a question. I say we don't have to follow the law, and I acknowledge that I cannot keep the law. You say you are to follow the law, but acknowledge also that you cannot keep the law.

Are not you and I in the same boat here? If not why?

Stranger
Here's the difference...
I know that God demands obedience and He's given me a way to obey Him with love.

You claim He no longer demands obedience.

Has God changed?
 
  • Like
Reactions: KBCid

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it. (2 Cor. 3:11)

Let me ask a question. I say we don't have to follow the law, and I acknowledge that I cannot keep the law. You say you are to follow the law, but acknowledge also that you cannot keep the law.

Are not you and I in the same boat here? If not why?


Stranger

P.S.
One of the first things you learn in theology is that you do not make a doctrine from one verse.
The Bible is a complete thought...

Where does it say we are no longer to obey God.?
What commandments is Jesus talking about in John 14:15?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: KBCid and bbyrd009

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tell me which ones you obey? Stranger
All including the expanded meanings that Christ brought in the new covenant. Am I perfect at it? no which is why I have an advocate with the father willing to cover my error's when I falter along the path. Does this answer give anyone license to not even try to obey?

You did not answer my question as I did yours.

Which of the moral commandments do you feel it is ok to not obey?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These things we will not do because we are 'in the Lord Jesus Christ'..

You say we won't do them because we are 'in the Lord Jesus Christ' right? So, if you are not in Christ then you would have no choice but to do those things? The way it's coming across sounds like you believe that Christ will prevent you from doing any error by removing your freedom of choice.

You mentioned that God is Holy and He wants us to be Holy.
When are we going to agree with Him that according to His word..we are...NOT in ourselves, but in Jesus Christ! ✟....H

If we are not still within ourselves then why were we told to be perfect? In fact while we explore this point let's look at the rest of that verse in context;

Matt 5: 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Who is Christ talking to here? isn't he giving instructions to those who would be disciples? who would be part of his body? Why should he give any such instruction if your normal will is to be superseded by being in his body?
If your freedom to choose the good from the bad is no longer in effect once in his body then Christ has wasted his time preaching these concepts. He really should have taught that we don't have to do anything but believe in him and he will control everything that could be offensive to the Father.
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
You say we won't do them because we are 'in the Lord Jesus Christ' right? So, if you are not in Christ then you would have no choice but to do those things? The way it's coming across sounds like you believe that Christ will prevent you from doing any error by removing your freedom of choice.



If we are not still within ourselves then why did were we told to be perfect? In fact while we explore this point let's look at the rest of that verse in context;

Matt 5: 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Who is Christ talking to here? isn't he giving instructions to those who would be disciples? who would be part of his body? Why should he give any such instruction if your normal will is to be superseded by being in his body?
If your freedom to choose the good from the bad is no longer in effect once in his body then Christ has wasted his time preaching these concepts. He really should have taught that we don't have to do anything but believe in him and he will control everything that could be offensive to the Father.
Very good post.

Of course everything you say is true.
IF what some believe were so, all the N.T. would have to say is:

JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU'LL BE OK.

Not only does it NOT say this, but verses cannot be provided to support the above position.

All the N.T. does is implore us to do as Jesus would want us to.

The new concept these days is that Jesus taught one thing, and Paul taught another thing.

Jesus taught the Old Law
And Paul taught grace.

Nonsense.
GOD IS GRACE.
NOT PAUL.

Was Jesus too dumb to preach what He wanted to say while He taught?
He had to give the word to Paul??

Paul confilicts with Jesus?
Great.
So who do we listen to and obey?
Paul or Jesus.

(even if there were a conflict - which there IS NOT)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Who is Christ talking to here? isn't he giving instructions to those who would be disciples? who would be part of his body? Why should he give any such instruction if your normal will is to be superseded by being in his body?
If your freedom to choose the good from the bad is no longer in effect once in his body then Christ has wasted his time preaching these concepts. He really should have taught that we don't have to do anything but believe in him and he will control everything that could be offensive to the Father.
zing
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it. (2 Cor. 3:11)

Let me ask a question. I say we don't have to follow the law, and I acknowledge that I cannot keep the law. You say you are to follow the law, but acknowledge also that you cannot keep the law.

Are not you and I in the same boat here? If not why?

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
"Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it."

so do all the criminals lol, change your mind here imo.

We are expressly told that not one jot or tittle of the law is done away with, by Christ Himself, and all this "I cannot keep the law perfectly, so i don't even need to bother trying" is a bunch of hooey, and irrelevant to boot. Most 90 year olds seem to do fine at keeping the law, seems to me
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's the difference...
I know that God demands obedience and He's given me a way to obey Him with love.

You claim He no longer demands obedience.

Has God changed?

Neither you or I are obedient. We both acknowledge we cannot keep the law. Why are we not in the same boat?

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
P.S.
One of the first things you learn in theology is that you do not make a doctrine from one verse.
The Bible is a complete thought...

Where does it say we are no longer to obey God.?
What commandments is Jesus talking about in John 14:15?

I was just responding to a question you asked. You asked 'where does it say', didn't you? I am not building a doctrine on a single verse.

Have I not answered your question already?

Stranger
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,157
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@KBCid Brother if you believe that with all you striving and effort you will end up being perfect,
I am sorry, you are somewhat deluded. It is the impossible task.
Just like all the many verses you quoted from the sermon. Impossible. I would have thought that you could see that clearly and get Jesus' message!

Matt 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said .. Thou shalt not kill; 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Can't you see here that Jesus is so obviously showing them how IMPOSSIBLE it is??
He here raised the bar ABOVE the old ten commandments!!

Notice He speaks of- "unless your righteousness" exceeds...etc
We know, because we all can see beyond and after the Cross...these people He was speaking to were still under the old law. We are shown after His death and victory it is no longer a matter of "our righteousness" getting the job of perfection done...BUT HIS!!

As with Abraham it was his FAITH which was imputed to him as righteousness.
Salvation is by grace through faith....never ever ever can be by becoming so righteous that we finally in our own effort reach perfection!! :eek:

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
It is all in and by Him...the Institutions are full of people who have driven themselves crazy by "trying" to be perfect.
I know..I have visited those poor people in those places. Sadly I have not managed to convince them the God sent Jesus to take our place and that "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Rom 4
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All including the expanded meanings that Christ brought in the new covenant. Am I perfect at it? no which is why I have an advocate with the father willing to cover my error's when I falter along the path. Does this answer give anyone license to not even try to obey?

You did not answer my question as I did yours.

Which of the moral commandments do you feel it is ok to not obey?

Well, if you are not perfect at it, what good has it done you. When you say you are not perfect, that means you are not following the law. Why not? If you fail in part of the law, you fail in all. So, how is that going for you? Not to well I see.

I am not required to follow any of the law. I do not obey the law.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Neither you or I are obedient. We both acknowledge we cannot keep the law. Why are we not in the same boat?

Stranger
How we answer is one thing...

What GOD requires is quite another.

God requires us to obey...
How we answer to that requirement is a totally different idea.

You're saying, in a post above, that you believe the law has been done away with as far as we having to follow it.
Here's your quote:
"Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it."

That's a rather scary sentence to read to be honest.
The law has NOT been done away with.
We are REQUIRED to follow it.

Mathew 5:17-20
What do you believe Jesus is saying here?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I was just responding to a question you asked. You asked 'where does it say', didn't you? I am not building a doctrine on a single verse.

Have I not answered your question already?

Stranger
NO. You haven't.
No one who believes as YOU do has ever posted a supporting verse.

WHERE in the bible does it say that we are to do nothing but BELIEVE in Jesus?

And if you're going to use John 6:29, you're going to have to explain what BELIEVE means.

You posted 2 Corinthians.
I explained what it means,
YOU never did...
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How we answer is one thing...

What GOD requires is quite another.

God requires us to obey...
How we answer to that requirement is a totally different idea.

You're saying, in a post above, that you believe the law has been done away with as far as we having to follow it.
Here's your quote:
"Yes, I believe the law has been done away as far as we having to follow it."

That's a rather scary sentence to read to be honest.
The law has NOT been done away with.
We are REQUIRED to follow it.

Mathew 5:17-20
What do you believe Jesus is saying here?

I was looking hard for an answer to my question, 'how are we not in the same boat'. And I couldn't see it. Perhaps I missed it. Could you show me.

Stranger