Jesus' Gospel, and Paul's.

jaybird · Oct 17, 2017

ScottA said:
It was Paul who was specifically chosen to be an apostle under the Holy Spirit, not by the fleshly ministry of Christ, but of the Spirit of Christ.

what about everyone else that had an experience with the spirit just the same as Paul? where are their teachings?

The other apostles were under Christ under the old covenant and would join "the dead in Christ", the salvation of "those who are asleep", those under "the first Adam." This we know, because He told them, "Where I go you cannot come", meaning "in the spirit."

"other apostles" would this be the 12 Apostles that walked, talked, lived and trained by the living Jesus, the ones Jesus Himself personally chose to be within His inner circle? but they were not chosen to continue His work? they were chosen to . . . .do what exactly? and why in the world did they go off founding churches everywhere?

But, it is "the living" "in Christ", whom "are alive at His coming" who have the Holy Spirit which Paul also had. For he said, "we who are alive at His coming", including himself. These are the descendants of "the Last Adam", "a life-giving spirit."

if Jesus and the 12 Apostles were not to be followed because they were under some other covenant and we were to wait for another one (Paul) to come and be our real example to follow. why did Jesus nor any one of the 12 mention this?
throughout the Hebrew bible there are lots of covenants, why is it the religion never changes? why does the Father not come out and say with this new covenant we are going to make a new religion and disregard everything before. that never happenes yet after rome takes over the faith that is pretty much what rome tells everyone.

ScottA · Oct 18, 2017

jaybird said:
what about everyone else that had an experience with the spirit just the same as Paul? where are their teachings?

There are many who have had an encounter with Christ and certainly with the Holy Spirit, but all are not teachers or preachers. Nonetheless, all who have been born again of the spirit of God during these times of the gentiles receive gifts of the Holy Spirit to do a multitude of service, until the end.

jaybird said:
"other apostles" would this be the 12 Apostles that walked, talked, lived and trained by the living Jesus, the ones Jesus Himself personally chose to be within His inner circle? but they were not chosen to continue His work? they were chosen to . . . .do what exactly? and why in the world did they go off founding churches everywhere?

Both the 11 and Paul were to complete the ministry of "that generation", which were a part of "the dead in Christ" under the old covenant. That was a time of transition, the greatest of all time. It was Paul, specifically, who crossed over to preach the good news of Christ to the gentiles. But Jesus preached to both: "My words are spirit", but it was Paul alone who counselled to "rightly divide the word of truth" between the dead and the living, which is the first and the second resurrection.

jaybird said:
if Jesus and the 12 Apostles were not to be followed because they were under some other covenant and we were to wait for another one (Paul) to come and be our real example to follow. why did Jesus nor any one of the 12 mention this?
throughout the Hebrew bible there are lots of covenants, why is it the religion never changes? why does the Father not come out and say with this new covenant we are going to make a new religion and disregard everything before. that never happenes yet after rome takes over the faith that is pretty much what rome tells everyone.

It is not Paul that is to be followed, but Christ, who was the "Firstfruits"...not of the dead only, but of the spirit of God. But, remember, in preaching to the gentiles who were not under the law and the old covenant, many would hear for the first time and believe, and then be met by Christ at his coming (in spirit), without ever following the traditions of Israel.

Therefore, the dead in Christ are saved by faith, but the living in Christ are saved by belief.

jaybird · Oct 18, 2017

ScottA said:
There are many who have had an encounter with Christ and certainly with the Holy Spirit, but all are not teachers or preachers. Nonetheless, all who have been born again of the spirit of God during these times of the gentiles receive gifts of the Holy Spirit to do a multitude of service, until the end.

and of all those, why are their works not listed in the bible as scripture?

Both the 11 and Paul were to complete the ministry of "that generation", which were a part of "the dead in Christ" under the old covenant. That was a time of transition, the greatest of all time. It was Paul, specifically, who crossed over to preach the good news of Christ to the gentiles. But Jesus preached to both: "My words are spirit", but it was Paul alone who counselled to "rightly divide the word of truth" between the dead and the living, which is the first and the second resurrection.
It is not Paul that is to be followed, but Christ, who was the "Firstfruits"...not of the dead only, but of the spirit of God. But, remember, in preaching to the gentiles who were not under the law and the old covenant, many would hear for the first time and believe, and then be met by Christ at his coming (in spirit), without ever following the traditions of Israel.
Therefore, the dead in Christ are saved by faith, but the living in Christ are saved by belief.

the 11 and Paul? im not sure Paul was one of the 12. your aware he did not meet the credentials listed in acts 1?
but lets entertain the idea what is Paul was one of the 12. if he was based on these credentials this would open the door for anyone to make themself a member of the 12. do you see the can of worms this opens up?
this is no knock on Paul, he is a good teacher, but why make him something he was not, its a slippery slope.

Therefore, the dead in Christ are saved by faith, but the living in Christ are saved by belief.

before you said Jesus and the 12 were part of another covenant making it sound as if they are not an example to follow:

The other apostles were under Christ under the old covenant and would join "the dead in Christ",

and

It was Paul who was specifically chosen to be an apostle under the Holy Spirit, not by the fleshly ministry of Christ, but of the Spirit of Christ.

do we follow the example of Jesus and the 12 or do we not follow their example. its hard to make sense of what your saying with statements like these, they seem to suggest anyone that follows Jesus and the 12 are just dead, and it was Paul that was chosen by the spirit. what difference would it make if you were moved to teach by the living Jesus or the spirit, the teachings would be the same. unless your suggesting the spirit called Paul to teach a different gospel.

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

Garrison said:
How is Paul's teaching on "grace" spoken of by Christ as He specifies the works of forgivess of others and obedience to The Commands for salvation?

Jesus came to the Jews who were still under the law..
He showed that there was something above the law..they tried to trip Him up...
He didn't keep the 'laws' he didn't make His followers wash their hands before eating....He didn't condone them stoning the woman ( and man) caught in adultery...He didn't say they must keep the Sabbath law that they were in bondage to.. Mark v "27 And He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." They had made idols of their laws..
He was showing them to look higher than the laws...Paul came to bring in "the higher"...Paul was hand picked by Jesus Himself. That is pretty clear.

jaybird · Oct 18, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
He was showing them to look higher than the laws...Paul came to bring in "the higher"...Paul was hand picked by Jesus Himself. That is pretty clear.

so was Jesus and the 12 following a different gospel being as it was not "the higher" gospel of Paul. you would think all teaching would sync together rather than deviate.
if Paul was hand picked by Jesus is it not strange that Jesus would never mention this?

pia · Oct 18, 2017

jaybird said:
so was Jesus and the 12 following a different gospel being as it was not "the higher" gospel of Paul. you would think all teaching would sync together rather than deviate.
if Paul was hand picked by Jesus is it not strange that Jesus would never mention this?

Jesus made it clear to His disciples that there was a new and better Covenant coming, which it did. He made reference to the best wine till last etc......While still under the law, it was the old covenant.
Paul was chosen by Christ on the road to Damascus.....Peter and the others agreed with Paul, that he would go to the Gentiles and they would stay among the Jews....Surely not such a big mystery??

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

jaybird said:
so was Jesus and the 12 following a different gospel being as it was not "the higher" gospel of Paul. you would think all teaching would sync together rather than deviate.
if Paul was hand picked by Jesus is it not strange that Jesus would never mention this?

As I said...Jesus was already preaching the change over....as it says clearly....John the Baptist was the last prophet of the OT. Jesus the beginning of the New.

Sorry not quite following you ....do you mean Jesus didn't mention handpicking Paul, or what?
If so...
:-
Acts 9:4 "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

But, that said...just because I believe something, you don't have to agree, that's just fine with me.

jaybird · Oct 18, 2017

pia said:
Jesus made it clear to His disciples that there was a new and better Covenant coming, which it did. He made reference to the best wine till last etc......While still under the law, it was the old covenant.

so Jesus and the 12 were following another gospel?

Paul was chosen by Christ on the road to Damascus.....Peter and the others agreed with Paul, that he would go to the Gentiles and they would stay among the Jews....Surely not such a big mystery??

Paul was chosen to be one of the 12? why does Jesus never mention Paul? why do the 12 go off to India, Ethiopia, Bulgaria, Italy and many other Gentile lands

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

@jaybird I just posted about ACTS where Jesus calls Paul ..not good enough for you?

jaybird said:
so Jesus and the 12 were following another gospel?

I just said in my post #27....they were the 'changing of the guard'....followers in training...

jaybird · Oct 18, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
As I said...Jesus was already preaching the change over....as it says clearly....John the Baptist was the last prophet of the OT. Jesus the beginning of the New.

i dont think Jesus was bringing in something new, IMO Jesus was bringing back the true way which the current way had fallen away from. from a pharisee/zealot point of view it would probably look like something new. there were other sects at the time of Jesus that were already teaching this new covenant theology however they didnt throw out the old covenant.

Sorry not quite following you ....do you mean Jesus didn't mention handpicking Paul, or what?
If so...
:-
Acts 9:4 "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

this is the account according to Paul. where do we have Jesus teaching of this future teacher called Paul? also in this account Paul is never named one of the 12.
i like Paul and would never want his teachings removed, there is much value in them. my issue is with the other teachers like Paul whos works were thrown out based on the fact they were not one of the 12. make sense

But, that said...just because I believe something, you don't have to agree, that's just fine with me.

if i dont agree it does not mean you are wrong or i think your wrong, more like a different perspective.

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

@jaybird Okay....whatever

Richard_oti · Oct 18, 2017

jaybird said:
so Jesus and the 12 were following another gospel?

Not in my opinion. But remember, to whom the message was being preached. The first, were those who knew the "Instruction". The later, knew very little of the "Instruction". Thus, a different set of problems was bound to arise. Thus why perhaps Paul's writings were more prolific than the others. The others, were also not necessarily "learned" men. Paul was very learned in the TaNaKh. In fact, the better you know the TaNaKh, the more you hear it resonant within his writings.

jaybird said:
Paul was chosen to be one of the 12? why does Jesus never mention Paul? why do the 12 go off to India, Ethiopia, Bulgaria, Italy and many other Gentile lands

Remember, one of the 12 fell. Judas. Thus, a replacement was necessary. Perhaps we should accept Matthias, who was chosen by what amounts to a game of "craps", a game of chance. Or, do we accept one chosen by Jesus per the Acts account. After Matthias was chosen by casting "lots", we have nothing more regarding him. Paul, was an extremely valuable and useful tool in the hand of "God".

In Revelation 21:14, the foundations have the names of the twelve Apostles, since Judas was no more, who was the 12th in your opinion?

jaybird · Oct 18, 2017

Richard_oti said:
Not in my opinion. But remember, to whom the message was being preached. The first, were those who knew the "Instruction". The later, knew very little of the "Instruction". Thus, a different set of problems was bound to arise. Thus why perhaps Paul's writings were more prolific than the others. The others, were also not necessarily "learned" men. Paul was very learned in the TaNaKh. In fact, the better you know the TaNaKh, the more you hear it resonant within his writings.

so Paul was trained by Pharisees and he was a learned man.
the 12 were trained by Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High, and they were not so learned?
im kinda leaning towards Jesus as being a bit better teacher.

Remember, one of the 12 fell. Judas. Thus, a replacement was necessary. Perhaps we should accept Matthias, who was chosen by what amounts to a game of "craps", a game of chance. Or, do we accept one chosen by Jesus per the Acts account. After Matthias was chosen by casting "lots", we have nothing more regarding him. Paul, was an extremely valuable and useful tool in the hand of "God".

didnt the Apostles pray to the Most High to reveal the next Apostle. they threw lots and had faith that the Father would reveal the next Apostle. the Father spoke to the Jews through that breastplate with the gemstones lighting up.

In Revelation 21:14, the foundations have the names of the twelve Apostles, since Judas was no more, who was the 12th in your opinion?

i always thought it was Matthias being as he was the one named the 12th in the scriptures.

Richard_oti · Oct 18, 2017

jaybird said:
so Paul was trained by Pharisees and he was a learned man.
the 12 were trained by Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High, and they were not so learned?
im kinda leaning towards Jesus as being a bit better teacher.

It is not the quality of the "Teacher", it is the time as a pupil.

They were only with Jesus a few years. Paul had years upon years of training. Within the Gospels alone, the level of the knowledge of each of them with regard to the "Instruction" is revealed to some extent. Compare that to Paul's revealed level of knowledge and there is no contest. Each of the four Gospels, reveals a different level of knowledge with regard to the "Instruction".

jaybird said:
didnt the Apostles pray to the Most High to reveal the next Apostle. they threw lots and had faith that the Father would reveal the next Apostle. the Father spoke to the Jews through that breastplate with the gemstones lighting up.

Indeed they did. And we both know, that they were never impetuous. Peter was told to get behind me adversary, as he had in mind the things of men, rather than the things of "God". He denied Jesus, and he cut off an ear.

No, men never attempt to run ahead of "God". do they?

If you and I were to pray and cast lots about what we think that "God" wants, how do you think we will do?

jaybird said:
i always thought it was Matthias being as he was the one named the 12th in the scriptures.

How were the original 12 chosen? Or should I say, by whom were the original 12 chosen?

jaybird · Oct 19, 2017

Richard_oti said:
It is not the quality of the "Teacher", it is the time as a pupil.
They were only with Jesus a few years. Paul had years upon years of training. Within the Gospels alone, the level of the knowledge of each of them with regard to the "Instruction" is revealed to some extent. Compare that to Paul's revealed level of knowledge and there is no contest. Each of the four Gospels, reveals a different level of knowledge with regard to the "Instruction".

im not sure i agree. Paul had many years of training and where did it lead him, to killing the followers of Jesus, the true way was right there in front of him and all those years of training didnt help him see it.

Indeed they did. And we both know, that they were never impetuous. Peter was told to get behind me adversary, as he had in mind the things of men, rather than the things of "God". He denied Jesus, and he cut off an ear.

No, men never attempt to run ahead of "God". do they?

If you and I were to pray and cast lots about what we think that "God" wants, how do you think we will do?

if we had the faith that Jesus taught IMO we could cast lots.

How were the original 12 chosen? Or should I say, by whom were the original 12 chosen?

its a grey area, Judas dies, Jesus comes back, Jesus and the 11 are back together, a 12th is needed and nothing is ever mentioned between Jesus and the 11. very strange. the original 12 were chosen by the living Jesus.

Stranger · Oct 19, 2017

Concerning Paul's apostleship and that of Matthias, Matthias was the replacement for Judas. (Acts 1:15-26) The casting of lots was not a crap game as some describe it. It was a legitimate Old Testament method of determining the will of God. (Lev. 16:8-10), (Num. 26:55) And (Prov. 16:33) says, "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

At the time of choosing a replacement for Judas, the Holy Spirit had not yet come. Thus the casting of lots was used. And God honored this method. (Acts 1:26), (Acts 2:14)

Paul was an apostle, just not one of the twelve.

Stranger

bbyrd009 · Oct 19, 2017

jaybird said:
if we had the faith that Jesus taught IMO we could cast lots.

Word

ScottA · Oct 19, 2017

jaybird said:
and of all those, why are their works not listed in the bible as scripture?

They are listed:
Matthew 25:34-36
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

...But, keep in mind, that we do these things in His name (not our own):

Mark 16:17
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Revelation 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

jaybird said:
the 11 and Paul? im not sure Paul was one of the 12. your aware he did not meet the credentials listed in acts 1?
but lets entertain the idea what is Paul was one of the 12. if he was based on these credentials this would open the door for anyone to make themself a member of the 12. do you see the can of worms this opens up?
this is no knock on Paul, he is a good teacher, but why make him something he was not, its a slippery slope.

No, sorry, I did not mean to infer that Paul was of the 12. He is indeed an apostle, but different, in that he has part in both the old and the new covenants: "one foot on the land and one foot on the sea", "for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

jaybird said:
Therefore, the dead in Christ are saved by faith, but the living in Christ are saved by belief.

before you said Jesus and the 12 were part of another covenant making it sound as if they are not an example to follow:
and
do we follow the example of Jesus and the 12 or do we not follow their example. its hard to make sense of what your saying with statements like these, they seem to suggest anyone that follows Jesus and the 12 are just dead, and it was Paul that was chosen by the spirit. what difference would it make if you were moved to teach by the living Jesus or the spirit, the teachings would be the same. unless your suggesting the spirit called Paul to teach a different gospel.

No, Paul was not teaching a different gospel, but he was rather teaching and preaching to that "other fold" spoken of by Christ.

GodsGrace · Oct 19, 2017

Garrison said:
Here are three examples of how Paul's "gospel" is a departure from Christ's Gospel.

1.) Jesus gave clear instructions about how to be forgiven, be saved, and receive Eternal Life. Mat. 6:14-15, "If you forgive men their tresspasses, your Father which is in heaven will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresspasses." As well, the rich nobleman who came to Jesus asking about eternal life in Luke 18:18-23 was told by Jesus to perform the works of The Commandments, and to divest himself of personal wealth. Jesus said nothing about "Grace."

Paul diverted from this by saying in Eph. 2:8, "By Grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul ignored Jesus' clear requirement a person must forgive all others their tresspasses before they can enter Heaven, and must follow The Commandments. Additionally, Jesus never is shown anywhere to speak the word "grace," yet Paul constantly promoted it.

2.) Paul jumps up with his idea of coming to Christ by writing in Rom. 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is not what Jesus said. Mat. 7:21 has Jesus saying, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the Will of my Father." Doing the Will of God is a works based salvation, far from Paul's so called "grace."

3.) Paul strangely writes in 1 Tim. 2:4, "[God] Who will have all men to be saved." This is Universalism at its heart. But, Jesus stated in Mat. 7:21, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads into life, and few there be that find it." Paul's "All men" is not in any manner the same as Jesus' "few."

Chatting, sharing possible ideas, exegeting Scripture, becoming intense, speaking ad hominem, and diverting this topic will not change the gross discrepancies of Paul's gospel in comparison to Jesus' statements from The Father Himself.

Hi Garrison,
I agree with you 100%.
When reading Jesus and reading Paul we do get two perspectives.
So much so, that some are being called Paulines or something like that.
Pauline theology.

If we examine carefully what Paul wrote, he really did not disagree with Jesus. How could he?

The problem is that Paul was a very intelligent person, an intellectual actually, and he had his way of writing what he believed was taught to him. He spoke to everyone he could and studied for 3 years before coming up with his theology.

In many places Paul writes of how we are to act and how we are to do works. For instance,
Romans 9:8-14
He lists sins that are not to be commited.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Ditto

Look at
1 Corinthians 10:21
Paul says we cannot drink from the cup of the Lord AND the cup of demons -- which would be SINNING.

In 1 Corinthians 15:2 Paul says that we will be saved IF we hold on to what was preached. What was preached?? ONLY to call on the name of Jesus?? Not much preaching there.

Check out Galatians 5:17-21
All acts NOT to do.
He then goes on to 5:22 which explains how we ARE to behave.
Which very much reminds me of the beatitudes in Mathew 5.

So it's not that they don't agree.
It's that Paul uses language that has caused difficulty because we have people that want easy believism, or hypergrace, and churches that teach this to fill up the pews.

For instance, when Paul says we are no longer under the law...
Many believe this to mean that we need not worry ourselves about obeying the 10 commandments when nothing could be further from the truth.

This is what I have come to believe.
I also used to think they were in disagreement.

However, I do want to say that if there is ANY QUESTION,
one always goes to JESUS, not to Paul.

pia · Oct 19, 2017

jaybird said:
so Jesus and the 12 were following another gospel?

Paul was chosen to be one of the 12? why does Jesus never mention Paul? why do the 12 go off to India, Ethiopia, Bulgaria, Italy and many other Gentile lands

Are you purposely trying to start some form of childish fight ? I can't figure where you're coming from...the Gospel of the Good news WAS the changing from the Old to the New...2 parts of the same news ( Gospel)...He taught many things to His disciples about the New, but had to 'be under' the old until He died and Rose again...

Jesus' Gospel, and Paul's.

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