Calling all Law Keepers.

amadeus · Oct 18, 2017

GodsGrace said:
I didn't catch that Amadeus.
Actually @tabletalk is correct.
This is not something to be debated.
Is milk white?

Jesus was born without sin and without the sin nature.
How could God have the sin nature?
No support is necessary.

According to your definition of God you may be correct.

IF He had the sin nature, He would have sinned sooner or later.
There's some confusion as to temptation.
He was tempted, so...?
Being tempted does not require the sin nature to be present.

For me, being tempted means that yielding to the temptation is possible. In Jesus' case he never yielded to the temptation.

The difference is that when WE are tempted, we CAN and at times do give way to that temptation.

If you are correct, how can we ever really become like Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

If you were correct, it would seem to me that Jesus came for nothing...

God sent His Son to make possible what was impossible.

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Jesus was also tempted in all ways as man, but He NEVER gave way to it because He DID NOT have the sin nature.

He was born fully man and fully God.
God cannot have the sin nature.

And the God in us, does NOT! We are all of us double-minded with both the "new man" and the "old man" working for the dominion in each us if and until the "old man" nature of us is completely and finally killed:

"She [wisdom] hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table."Prov 9:2

The battles within us continues to rage until, and if, the victory is complete:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? " James 4:1

To say that sin cannot be overcome is as I see it to effectively call Jesus a liar, to call God a liar.

jimd · Oct 18, 2017

GodsGrace said:
I'm so sorry I don't please you.

No problem, you have the company of 99.9% of the christian world. Like I said it has little or nothing to do with our salvation. You never did take a crack at what the tree of knowledge of good and evil and it's fruit is.

PS: I looked up this scripture: Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

GodsGrace · Oct 18, 2017

amadeus said:
According to your definition of God you may be correct.

MY definition of God?
God is already defined -- I didn't define Him.
You think Jesus was born with the sin nature and sin?

1 Peter 2:22
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 John 3:5
John 8:29
1 Peter 1:18-19

For me, being tempted means that yielding to the temptation is possible. In Jesus' case he never yielded to the temptation.

I know. This word "temptation" causes problems.
Temptation in and of itself does not mean that yielding is possible.
I'm going to post the following for the word; however, it could also mean what you say. We have to simply understand that Jesus was born sinless and w/o the sin nature.. so I'm posting this one:

Wiktionary

temptation(Noun)
The act of tempting
temptation(Noun)
The condition of being tempted.
temptation(Noun)
Something attractive, tempting or seductive; an inducement or enticement.
temptation(Noun)
Pressure applied to your thinking designed to create wrong emotions which will eventually lead to wrong actions.

If you are correct, how can we ever really become like Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

We certainly are not going to actually become like Jesus! It's a goal. Something to work toward. Do you think you'll be like Jesus one day? That's honorable, but not possible. YOU have the sin nature, Jesus did not. 1 John 3:2 is speaking about when we're face to face with Jesus and have our glorified bodies. IOW, when Jesus returns.

If you were correct, it would seem to me that Jesus came for nothing...

Why?
o Jesus came to pay our sin debt so we could go to heaven and not wait around in Abraham's Bossom.
o He came to show us how to live to please God and to set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
o He came to free us from slavery to satan.

That's not enough reasons?

God sent His Son to make possible what was impossible.

Click to expand...

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

This simply means that we are incapable of saving ourselves and it's necessary that God saves us.

It also refers to the fact that on our own we're a miserable bunch, but with the help of the Holy Spirit we walk in our sanctification.

And the God in us, does NOT! We are all of us double-minded with both the "new man" and the "old man" working for the dominion in each us if and until the "old man" nature of us is completely and finally killed:

"She [wisdom] hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table."Prov 9:2

The battles within us continues to rage until, and if, the victory is complete:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? " James 4:1

To say that sin cannot be overcome is as I see it to effectively call Jesus a liar, to call God a liar.

You've lost me.
Your last sentence.
Are you saying that you never sin?
Or are you saying we have more strength, motivation, and help, to overcome sin?

GodsGrace · Oct 18, 2017

jimd said:
No problem, you have the company of 99.9% of the christian world. Like I said it has little or nothing to do with our salvation. You never did take a crack at what the tree of knowledge of good and evil and it's fruit is.

PS: I looked up this scripture: Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Well, if you have the company of .01% of all Christians, what makes you believe YOU are correct? Is it possible that all theologians are wrong and only you are right?

You want me to "take a crack" at what the tree of Knowledge was?
And it's fruit?
Why don't YOU take a crack at it?

As far as God creating evil...
Some believe this.
I don't.
I serve a God that loves us and would not create evil, or as some bibles translate...calamity. Same difference.

So there must be some other explanation.
Indeed there is.
But not many can hear it.
No matter.

amadeus · Oct 18, 2017

GodsGrace said:
MY definition of God?
God is already defined -- I didn't define Him.
You think Jesus was born with the sin nature and sin?

1 Peter 2:22
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 John 3:5
John 8:29
1 Peter 1:18-19

All the verses do not really define God, do they? They give us ideas and sometimes the Holy Spirit brings it all into better focus. Who can really define Him? Not me, and neither should I limit Him to say what He can or cannot do.

I think that the difference between Jesus and us is that he never sinned... but he could have. He had some advantages like having (being) the Word of God and never developing the sinful ways of man. We all have both and had them before we met Jesus.

I know. This word "temptation" causes problems.
Temptation in and of itself does not mean that yielding is possible.
I'm going to post the following for the word; however, it could also mean what you say. We have to simply understand that Jesus was born sinless and w/o the sin nature.. so I'm posting this one:

Wiktionary

temptation(Noun)
The act of tempting

temptation(Noun)
The condition of being tempted.

temptation(Noun)
Something attractive, tempting or seductive; an inducement or enticement.

temptation(Noun)
Pressure applied to your thinking designed to create wrong emotions which will eventually lead to wrong actions.

You're not likely to easily sway me on this one by using men's definitions. I've seen them all and still disagree. If there is such a thing as a sinful nature it means to me that a person is attracted by sin. Jesus was, but with the Holy Spirit on his side and all of the Word of God, he knew that the attraction was a lie. So do we in a measure, but something in us still refuses to admit some things and none of us has all of the Word of God living in us.

We certainly are not going to actually become like Jesus! It's a goal. Something to work toward. Do you think you'll be like Jesus one day? That's honorable, but not possible. YOU have the sin nature, Jesus did not. 1 John 3:2 is speaking about when we're face to face with Jesus and have our glorified bodies. IOW, when Jesus returns.

Are we then with less than flawlessness going to be a part of His Body, the Body of Christ? I don't see any after the life of flesh finishing ground or purgatory for us. It is now or it is never as I understand it. All of the scripture that I am able to understand speaks to me on it. Could I be wrong? Perhaps, but after so long on this point, I do not believe so... but then I am hardly alone in that:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Why?
o Jesus came to pay our sin debt so we could go to heaven and not wait around in Abraham's Bossom.
o He came to show us how to live to please God and to set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
o He came to free us from slavery to satan.

That's not enough reasons?

And to what are these verses referring if not bringing us to where God wants us to be.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Eph 4:11-14

This simply means that we are incapable of saving ourselves and it's necessary that God saves us.

Yes it is necessary that God through the ministry as described in the Ephesian verses above "perfect" us, but the time to work on the perfection is not after our time here is finished, but before while we still have "time". Unless we subscribe to a type of purgatory, what reason does scripture give us to expect the work in us to be completed after the dirt is thrown on our faces? God provided all that we need through His Son and the Holy Ghost. Saying it cannot be done while we walk in flesh is put a limitation on God. Is God limited in that respect? Where does scripture say that?

It also refers to the fact that on our own we're a miserable bunch, but with the help of the Holy Spirit we walk in our sanctification.

Yes, the time for the work of the Holy Spirit is now within each of us.

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)" II Cor 6:2

You've lost me.
Your last sentence.
Are you saying that you never sin?
Or are you saying we have more strength, motivation, and help, to overcome sin?

All of us who believe and have the Holy Ghost in us can overcome even the temptation to sin, which is what Jesus did. First the sin and then the attraction of sin. One thing that may help to understand where I am is that I believe in a difference between the saved Church and the Bride of Christ. Only a small number of those saved will also make the Bride. But... everyone should be working toward becoming part of the Bride.

No, I am not without sin, but neither do I deny the possibility. God can do anything.

The only limitation on Him is what He has put on Himself through His Word. He has spoken it and it will not change. In that Word He has given us the dominion. We are flawed and without help cannot fix our own flaws. Only God can do that, but because He gave us the dominion over ourselves, He cannot help us, He cannot fix us unless we allow it and continue to allow it until and if all of the work in us is done.

Every time someone, an otherwise believing someone, denies the ability of God in him/her to overcome all of the ways of sin, the attractions of the sin, the temptations, he is expressing a negative faith:

"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29

People nearly always read that verse with the positive meaning, but what about the negative?

jimd · Oct 18, 2017

GodsGrace said:
Well, if you have the company of .01% of all Christians, what makes you believe YOU are correct? Is it possible that all theologians are wrong and only you are right?

When the Lord teaches you something, it doesn't matter if anyone agrees with you. right?

You want me to "take a crack" at what the tree of Knowledge was?
And it's fruit?
Why don't YOU take a crack at it?

Because I have found that it is better to try to lead someone to the truth than to just spoon feed them. I will give you another hint, that tree is still with us as well as the other tree and many are still trying to eat its fruit.

As far as God creating evil...
Some believe this.
I don't.
I serve a God that loves us and would not create evil, or as some bibles translate...calamity. Same difference.

So there must be some other explanation.
Indeed there is.
But not many can hear it.
No matter.

You are right, there is a good explanation but we can learn from this that many times we must dig deeper to find God's treasures

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

@jimd Amen...good word!

pia · Oct 18, 2017

Dcopymope said:
God is not the author of confusion.

Amen to that..

Helen · Oct 18, 2017

amadeus said:
Indeed He is all around us, but there is a special or real presence or whatever we might want to call it that is different. It is not really, I believe, that God is different, but that our perception of Him is different because of what we have done. What we have done is opened ourselves up to Him in a way we did not do before. It might be expressed as closing off our own will in favor to His will. This is effectively what Jesus did here:

I like that...but only quoted a little bit here.
I always call it "the felt presence".

Yes, we can say that God is all around us..and even Solomon knew that well...but..
there was a day when the temple building was complete and dedicated to God and the GLORY of God's presence filled the Temple.
He as we know, is omnipresent so always here, but at different time He 'manifests' His actual presence to us.
When I was a young Christian and knew next to nothing about anything..I remember a young peoples meeting..( just 8 of us) the Pastor said 'amen' at the end of his closing prayer..it had been no special meeting at all...and as he said amen..we could not move...no one moved...the power of God's presence fell upon us...he sat for about 20 mins in dead silence, none of us wanted to speak, none moved ..we just bathed in His presence..then it slowly lifted.
That was the first time I experienced the manifested presence of God's Holy Spirit.
Sometimes in gatherings
Obviously over the decades it has happened numerous times, sometimes in gatherings....and more often in personal prayer and worship...
....and when it doesn't , we trust rest in faith, knowing His presence is always with, us unseen and unfelt.
We have another picture in the wilderness experience..He was always with them..yet He also chose to manifest His presence in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle..above the Ark , at the Mercy Seat.

Just think..the reality is, one day ( for some of us oldies , sooner rather than later) we will be in His manifested awesome presence continually. Yay God!! ✟

Bless you John .

Richard_oti · Oct 19, 2017

GodsGrace said:
<snip>
Doesn't the NT say that sin brought with it death?

Indubitably.

GodsGrace said:
Romans 6:23 would seem to apply.
Sin brings death, both spiritual and also the first sin brought physical death, Genesis 2:17...it brought, immediately, spiritual death, but A and E also began to die.

Let's take ourselves for example: Sin brings death. If we "sin" does it bring "physical" death? Yes, I know that certain ones would, but I am talking some minor sin for the sake of this. Does that same "sin" bring about or begin to bring about "spiritual" death?

GodsGrace said:
I do understand your point about their having to be denied access to the Tree of Life at expulsion from the garden --- so I was thinking outloud in a post if, perhaps, they weren't already eating from it to their spiritual and physical continuation of life, and when they were denied access to it, they began to die also physically.

Possibly. Or, possibly, they were mortal beings who would eventually experience death without access. Since they had access at the time, physical death was not in question for them. Based upon the Genesis account, it would appear that they had not as of yet partaken of the "Tree of Life". That really did not come out as clear as I would like, and I am befuddled to attempt to make it clearer right this moment.

Gen 3:22b ... and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever-

GodsGrace said:
Re Who Only Hath Immortality --- Never noticed that before...

Just a tidbit for our consideration in this.

GodsGrace · Oct 19, 2017

amadeus said:
All the verses do not really define God, do they? They give us ideas and sometimes the Holy Spirit brings it all into better focus. Who can really define Him? Not me, and neither should I limit Him to say what He can or cannot do.

I think that the difference between Jesus and us is that he never sinned... but he could have. He had some advantages like having (being) the Word of God and never developing the sinful ways of man. We all have both and had them before we met Jesus.

You're not likely to easily sway me on this one by using men's definitions. I've seen them all and still disagree. If there is such a thing as a sinful nature it means to me that a person is attracted by sin. Jesus was, but with the Holy Spirit on his side and all of the Word of God, he knew that the attraction was a lie. So do we in a measure, but something in us still refuses to admit some things and none of us has all of the Word of God living in us.

Are we then with less than flawlessness going to be a part of His Body, the Body of Christ? I don't see any after the life of flesh finishing ground or purgatory for us. It is now or it is never as I understand it. All of the scripture that I am able to understand speaks to me on it. Could I be wrong? Perhaps, but after so long on this point, I do not believe so... but then I am hardly alone in that:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

And to what are these verses referring if not bringing us to where God wants us to be.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Eph 4:11-14

Yes it is necessary that God through the ministry as described in the Ephesian verses above "perfect" us, but the time to work on the perfection is not after our time here is finished, but before while we still have "time". Unless we subscribe to a type of purgatory, what reason does scripture give us to expect the work in us to be completed after the dirt is thrown on our faces? God provided all that we need through His Son and the Holy Ghost. Saying it cannot be done while we walk in flesh is put a limitation on God. Is God limited in that respect? Where does scripture say that?

Yes, the time for the work of the Holy Spirit is now within each of us.

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)" II Cor 6:2

All of us who believe and have the Holy Ghost in us can overcome even the temptation to sin, which is what Jesus did. First the sin and then the attraction of sin. One thing that may help to understand where I am is that I believe in a difference between the saved Church and the Bride of Christ. Only a small number of those saved will also make the Bride. But... everyone should be working toward becoming part of the Bride.

No, I am not without sin, but neither do I deny the possibility. God can do anything.

The only limitation on Him is what He has put on Himself through His Word. He has spoken it and it will not change. In that Word He has given us the dominion. We are flawed and without help cannot fix our own flaws. Only God can do that, but because He gave us the dominion over ourselves, He cannot help us, He cannot fix us unless we allow it and continue to allow it until and if all of the work in us is done.

Every time someone, an otherwise believing someone, denies the ability of God in him/her to overcome all of the ways of sin, the attractions of the sin, the temptations, he is expressing a negative faith:

"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29

People nearly always read that verse with the positive meaning, but what about the negative?

We are able to overcome the temptation to sin?
What does that mean???
Have I become a saint or an angel or something?

There's a problem with the word TEMPTATION in Christianity.
I've run across this before and am really not willing to discuss it.
We will always be tempted.
Being tempted is not a sin.
Giving in to temptation is a sin.
We will sin for as long as we live.
WE are not Jesus.

The only point I'd like to take away from this discussion is this:
Jesus was fully God and fully man.
This was determined in the first few hundred years of Christianity when it was doubted that Jesus was God.
If you don't agree with it, are you still Christian? There's a thread on that because we all seem to want to make up our own definition of what being a Christian is. You, on a personal level, could believe what you want to --- that does not make you be lost. However, you can't expouse incorrect beliefs to everyone.
Jesus being fully God HAND NO SIN NATURE and never sinned, of course.

IF He had a sin nature, he was just a man like all of us.
But He still was tempted. By satan, in the desert.
One does NOT have to have the sin nature present in them to be tempted.

As to my last statement, YES, JESUS is the ONLY person ever born NOT to have the sin nature except for Adam and Eve. And that is disputable... (about A and E, I mean).

bbyrd009 · Oct 19, 2017

amadeus said:
To say that sin cannot be overcome is as I see it to effectively call Jesus a liar, to call God a liar.

pretty hard to tempt an 80 year old to sin much lol

amadeus · Oct 19, 2017

GodsGrace said:
We are able to overcome the temptation to sin?
What does that mean???
Have I become a saint or an angel or something?

A saint is simply a person set apart. When we have decided to really follow Jesus we became set apart. We became saints. The meaning used by the Catholic Church is the standard on this and many Protestants hold onto it, but in reading scripture the pre-conceived notions we have will affect what we get out of our reading. They may even block God.

An angel is simply a messenger. There are as I believe it messengers who are men given a message from God to deliver to other men. John the Baptist would be one of those. Of course there are also messengers seemingly of a heavenly origin who apparently are not men and perhaps never were. An example of that would Gabriel.

As to what you at the moment, it is certainly something different than what you were before you met Jesus. Can you not be changed to the better by following Him closely while still in your flesh?

The Baptist said this:
"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

The "He" to increase is the Jesus or the "new man" within us since meeting the Master. The "I" to decrease is the "old man" which all of us were before meeting Jesus, but that old man is not gone. He is the one who along with any adversary [devil] would have us deny that God can make us better than we presently are. Is that not what happened to Eve in the Garden when the serpent contradicted God?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Gen 3:4

There's a problem with the word TEMPTATION in Christianity.
I've run across this before and am really not willing to discuss it.

Because if you were to do so you might find that you have missed something important... or is it that you believe along with everyone else that you are already right so there is no point it pursuing the issue further? Again:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

We will always be tempted.

How long is always? What is an overcomer who is to receive the promises for an overcomer as per Revelation chapters 2 and 3?

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

Jesus reached a point before his crucifixion that must make us wonder to ourselves just where he was:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world..." John 17:11

He was in the world, but when he prayed that prayer he says that he no longer was. We cannot get there?

Being tempted is not a sin.
Giving in to temptation is a sin.
We will sin for as long as we live.

As long as we live? Do we have Life, or are we merely walking around dead like all of those who have never received the Life which Jesus is? What is the difference between us and them?

WE are not Jesus.

No, but how like Him or unlike Him are we or how like Him can we be?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

The only point I'd like to take away from this discussion is this:
Jesus was fully God and fully man.
This was determined in the first few hundred years of Christianity when it was doubted that Jesus was God.

Someone determined it, but did you really or are you using it here rather than moving forward as if God is unable to increase you any more than he already has?

If you don't agree with it, are you still Christian?

Again then, what is a Christian? Someone who believes in God and His Son, no matter how far down the highway of holiness he has traveled? Have all of us traveled the same distance? Have all us understood all the same things in the same measure? What has God given one that He has not given another? Whose judgment is the final judgment on each of us?

There's a thread on that because we all seem to want to make up our own definition of what being a Christian is. You, on a personal level, could believe what you want to --- that does not make you be lost. However, you can't expouse incorrect beliefs to everyone.
Jesus being fully God HAND NO SIN NATURE and never sinned, of course.

And what is it any man or any group of men have decided that is binding on other men? Does not the final decision always rest with God? What happened to growth in the things of God?

IF He had a sin nature, he was just a man like all of us.

Of course, He was not just a man like the rest of us, but who but God knows just exactly what He was and now is? Have not some been given more about what He was than others because they have continued to pursue Him and He has continued given them growth?

But He still was tempted. By satan, in the desert.
One does NOT have to have the sin nature present in them to be tempted.

As to my last statement, YES, JESUS is the ONLY person ever born NOT to have the sin nature except for Adam and Eve. And that is disputable... (about A and E, I mean).

What is this sin nature anyway? Is it not simply the attractiveness of some things to us. Jesus was tempted so were they not also attractive to him? Did he not want to avoid the suffering and death which he knew was on the road he was traveling? In what way was he in his flesh so different from us?

We can play word games [semantics?] with what he was or was not, but his temptations were to him just like ours are to us.

amadeus · Oct 19, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
pretty hard to tempt an 80 year old to sin much lol

Certainly more difficult, but so long as the old man is not completely dead, he may still yearn for things that he cannot really have. Consider the mostly old men in the flesh who have been president of the United States. Did not pride get hold of most of them to take on that job? Did not the "Look at me" aspect play a role in them wanting it in the first place?

bbyrd009 · Oct 19, 2017

amadeus said:
Certainly more difficult, but so long as the old man is not completely dead, he may still yearn for things that he cannot really have. Consider the mostly old men in the flesh who have been president of the United States. Did not pride get hold of most of them to take on that job? Did not the "Look at me" aspect play a role in them wanting it in the first place?

ya, good point, even some 80 year olds remain he-goats all their lives i guess.

Helen · Oct 19, 2017

GodsGrace said:
Giving in to temptation is a sin.
We will sin for as long as we live.

Interesting...you just told me in the other thread # 151 Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test) that me saying that Jesus could have sinned was blasphemy...yet here you say that 'being tempted' is not sin. You told me that me saying Jesus had the potential was really saying He had sin...!!!

hmmm intersting...

GodsGrace · Oct 19, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
Interesting...you just told me in the other thread # 151 Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test) that me saying that Jesus could have sinned was blasphemy...yet here you say that 'being tempted' is not sin. You told me that me saying Jesus had the potential was really saying He had sin...!!!
hmmm intersting...

You're so mixed up I'm not even going to explain.
Put me on your ignore list...
PLEASE.

Helen · Oct 19, 2017

Delighted to...one thing we agree about!

bbyrd009 · Oct 19, 2017

amadeus said:
Could I be wrong? Perhaps, but after so long on this point, I do not believe so... but then I am hardly alone in that:

you are not wrong; oil and water cannot be mixed
milk and meat should not sit on the same shelf
meat makes some people sick
pick your analogy

bbyrd009 · Oct 19, 2017

amadeus said:
All of us who believe and have the Holy Ghost in us can overcome even the temptation to sin, which is what Jesus did.

amen. it is made to sound like some really difficult religious concept, but when a little kid is engaged in manifesting a vision, tongue curling out, sin just ceases to really even be the focus; the kid is not "trying to stay out of trouble" iow, in that analogy, they are focused on the act of creation. Macaroni art or whatever.

amadeus said:
All the verses do not really define God, do they?

another bad result of Trinity doctrine imo, this believing that God can be defined

Calling all Law Keepers.

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