The Other Sheep;

GodsGrace · Oct 19, 2017

H. Richard said:
***
Are you saying that to me or to yourself. Sounds like it is to yourself since all you can do is make derogatory and belittling comments.

Since your accusation is so serious,
I ask that you post some of these statements.

ScottA · Oct 19, 2017

twinc said:
shall we stop the bickering by seeing and understanding what Jesus said and not what Paul or John and others say and supposedly said and is misunderstood - Jesus clearly said to us all, them and us, "if you love me you will keep my commandments" and Jesus further said no new commandment do I give you other than those I gave Moses on Sinai - twinc

The new commandment is that we should love one another, which is sometimes in fondness and sometimes in rebuke. But we should not misunderstand the would-be bickering as only negative, but also as working through issues, staying the course from its foundation in Christ to the glory of our God in spirit, which is not limited as the flesh is limited. Which cannot be fulfilled if we only look at that which is done in the flesh.

Therefore, if we bicker between the flesh and the spirit - let us lay down the flesh, that we may be raised up in the spirit. For, if we do not die to the flesh, we shall not live to the spirit of God unto salvation.

twinc · Oct 20, 2017

ScottA said:
The new commandment is that we should love one another, which is sometimes in fondness and sometimes in rebuke. But we should not misunderstand the would-be bickering as only negative, but also as working through issues, staying the course from its foundation in Christ to the glory of our God in spirit, which is not limited as the flesh is limited. Which cannot be fulfilled if we only look at that which is done in the flesh.

Therefore, if we bicker between the flesh and the spirit - let us lay down the flesh, that we may be raised up in the spirit. For, if we do not die to the flesh, we shall not live to the spirit of God unto salvation.

the problem is that it is not seen and accepted that all is a merry go round of adding error to error and confusion to confusion - Jesus did not say what you say He said - twinc

ScottA · Oct 20, 2017

twinc said:
the problem is that it is not seen and accepted that all is a merry go round of adding error to error and confusion to confusion - Jesus did not say what you say He said - twinc

Yes, Jesus did say what I said. But to be clear, what point specifically are you referring to?

bbyrd009 · Oct 20, 2017

H. Richard said:
***
In my opinion Paul is talking about the rapture where He, Jesus, takes those under grace to heaven.

i hope you see that i am not meaning to make a judgement about a belief here, but you seem to hold this as "outside of religion" in some way that i am not seeing, so it becomes obvious that we are defining the word "religion" differently.

H. Richard · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
i hope you see that i am not meaning to make a judgement about a belief here, but you seem to hold this as "outside of religion" in some way that i am not seeing, so it becomes obvious that we are defining the word "religion" differently.

***

The word religion is defined as what man does to please a god they think exists, works in religion. I am not this kind of person.

I believe God did all that is required for a person to be His child when He atoned, paid, or all the worlds sins on the cross. In simple words He loved us so much that He accomplished everything necessary for them to be His child on the cross. His work, not ours.

The difference is who did the work. You can't put God in a man ran religion. Nor can you put a child of God in a religion that tries to please God by doing works. The child of God pleases God when they believe in what He did, not what they do.

As Paul said, the child of God does not boast in what they do for God but instead gives all the glory for their salvation to God's work on the cross.

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
As Paul said, the child of God does not boast in what they do for God but instead gives all the glory for their salvation to God's work on the cross.

i note we go right from "you don't need works," that ol' religious stand-by, to "boasting about works," that other religious position, no in-between, see, not bothering to acknowledge the truth, that being that the very next thing you do will be a "work," your reply, if you give one, will be a work, and you are going to be judged by your works, regardless of your beliefs in the matter--which even Atheists understand, seems to me.

So you might see that "do you need works to be saved, or not?" is a completely vacuous question, when contrasted with "you will be judged by your works." Note how, listening to the guy who has a lot of charisma, and has signed a Contract for Jesus, that convinced you that Jesus did everything and you don't even have to follow, or change your mind, or anything but say the right code-words to be "saved," this fact that you are doing work just sitting there listening to him never quite comes out, does it?

"Works" are relegated to some theoretical, possibly evil thing that you might do in the future, or have done in the past, right? Anywhere but in the now, right now, where it matters. That in-between space where we all exist, eternally. Imo when you allow Some Guy to remove the concept of works as "the very next thing you do," even if it is just listening, or reading--both works--you are voluntarily disconnecting yourself from life, from now.

See how the "works" you and i are discussing are not even real, they are some theoretical thing that we might either do or not do, in the future, right. Those are crap, ok, they do not even exist, except as distractions to lure you away from what matters imo.

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

You are constructing a building, a temple; right now. That is not the Foundation, Christ, Who i agree has done everything that He needs do for you, which should be applied when you start imagining "rapture" (another way to remove you from "now"), not when you contemplate some whacked definition of works that makes them anything other than "actions" or "your next act."

You are also writing a book, "The Acts of _______."

H. Richard · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
i note we go right from "you don't need works," that ol' religious stand-by, to "boasting about works," that other religious position, no in-between, see, not bothering to acknowledge the truth, that being that the very next thing you do will be a "work," your reply, if you give one, will be a work, and you are going to be judged by your works, regardless of your beliefs in the matter.

So you might see that "do you need works to be saved, or not?" is a completely vacuous question, when contrasted with "you will be judged by your works." Note how, listening to the guy who has a lot of charisma, and has signed a Contract for Jesus, that convinced you that Jesus did everything and you don't even have to follow, or change your mind, or anything but say the right code-words to be "saved," this fact that you are doing work just sitting there listening to him never quite comes out, does it?

"Works" are relegated to some theoretical, possibly evil thing that you might do in the future, or have done in the past, right? Anywhere but in the now, right now, where it matters. That in-between space where we all exist, eternally. Imo when you allow Some Guy to remove the concept of works as "the very next thing you do," even if it is just listening, or reading--both works--you are voluntarily disconnecting yourself from life, from now.

See how the "works" you and i are discussing are not even real, they are some theoretical thing that we might either do or not do, in the future, right. Those are crap, ok, they do not even exist, except as distractions to lure you away from what matters imo.

***

Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

Eph 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
***

Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

Eph 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

so then don't boast lol, who's boasting, i'm not boasting about works.

H. Richard · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
so then don't boast lol, who's boasting, i'm not boasting about works.

***

Please tell me the works that the thief on the cross did to be saved by Jesus?????????

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
***

Please tell me the works that the thief on the cross did to be saved by Jesus?????????

why would i do that? He obviously wasn't boasting about them, and i am not gonna either. Doesn't mean that he did not do any, i mean after all they are pretty self evident imo. I am not denying that faith is what saves, HR.

i am acknowledging, as you can either do or not, that you are going to have works that demonstrate where your faith really is, and that they are going to be judged, regardless of your or anyone's beliefs in the matter

twinc · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
why would i do that? He obviously wasn't boasting about them, and i am not gonna either. Doesn't mean that he did not do any, i mean after all they are pretty self evident imo. I am not denying that faith is what saves, HR.

i am acknowledging, as you can either do or not, that you are going to have works that demonstrate where your faith really is, and that they are going to be judged, regardless of your or anyone's beliefs in the matter

the mistake is that good works will not be rewarded by heaven but in heaven and also hell - hellish good works will be rewarded by the heat and flames being turned down - so since the majority are on the broad road good works are advised - twinc

H. Richard · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
why would i do that? He obviously wasn't boasting about them, and i am not gonna either. Doesn't mean that he did not do any, i mean after all they are pretty self evident imo. I am not denying that faith is what saves, HR.

i am acknowledging, as you can either do or not, that you are going to have works that demonstrate where your faith really is, and that they are going to be judged, regardless of your or anyone's beliefs in the matter

***

Don't you understand that a child of God will not be judged on his/her works. They will receive rewards for anything they did to help someone see the gospel of grace but to judge them for sins that have already been atoned, paid for on the cross is saying they weren't atoned , paid for.

You couldn't find any works that the thief on the cross did because there weren't any. He just asked!

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
***

Don't you understand that a child of God will not be judged on his/her works.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
biblehub.com/romans/2-6.htm
who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:" .... has done, the moral tenor of his life, will be the standard by which he will be judged at the last day.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of ...

so, cut those parts out all you like, and pretend you did not get that from some religious person, if you want to

H. Richard said:
They will receive rewards for anything they did to help someone see the gospel of grace but to judge them for sins that have already been atoned, paid for on the cross is saying they weren't atoned , paid for.

now the issue is just being confused with atonement for sins, a different concept, while the fact that rewards and crowns are the result of works is ignored lol, and "works" are turned into "proselytizing others into my dysfunctional beliefs," rather than "the things that i am doing, and will do, today, that will be judged."

Not even considering that Christ did not die to save you from your unrepented sins, so repentance is just brushed aside here also

H. Richard said:
You couldn't find any works that the thief on the cross did because there weren't any. He just asked!

yes, and unfortunately you do not have the luxury of the thief, as you are not likely to die tonight. You are not attached to a pole, that you can no longer do any works, except exhibit a change of heart as the thief did.

And fwiw the next conclusion from that, that the religious try to reach, has been tried, it is Constantinianism, or Augustianianism, one of those Roman idiots, whichever one advocated "death-bed salvation." So, best of luck to you there too.

twinc · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
***

Please tell me the works that the thief on the cross did to be saved by Jesus?????????

this is exactly where and why we are required to simply simply simply believe in Jesus and what He says for unlike Him we are unable to project backward or forward in time - Jesus said to the thief "this day you will be with Me in Paradise" - He did not say heaven and since a day is as a thousand years to the Lord the thief did not die that day but went to Paradise where good or God's work would abound - to understand about Paradise see Rev/Apoc 2:7 - twinc

H. Richard · Oct 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
biblehub.com/romans/2-6.htm
who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:" .... has done, the moral tenor of his life, will be the standard by which he will be judged at the last day.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of ...

so, cut those parts out all you like, and pretend you did not get that from some religious person, if you want to
now the issue is just being confused with atonement for sins, a different concept, while the fact that rewards and crowns are the result of works is ignored lol, and "works" are turned into "proselytizing others into my dysfunctional beliefs," rather than "the things that i am doing, and will do, today, that will be judged."

Not even considering that Christ did not die to save you from your unrepented sins, so repentance is just brushed aside here also
yes, and unfortunately you do not have the luxury of the thief, as you are not likely to die tonight. You are not attached to a pole, that you can no longer do any works, except exhibit a change of heart as the thief did.

And fwiw the next conclusion from that, that the religious try to reach, has been tried, it is Constantinianism, or Augustianianism, one of those Roman idiots, whichever one advocated "death-bed salvation." So, best of luck to you.

***

1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

It doesn't say he will be lost. IMO what mankind does is either placing their faith in what God has done which will receive a reward, or placing their faith in what they do which will be burnt up.

You said "Not even considering that Christ did not die to save you from your unrepented sins," Are you so blind that you do not see that every child of God has acknowledged that they are sinful when they reach out to Jesus, in faith, that He has forgiven those sins.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

There is nothing that says the tax collector quit his job are stopped sinning.

I don't wish to continue this argument since it is going no where. I will believe what I believe and you will believe what you believe. Fine with me.

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
IMO what mankind does is either placing their faith in what God has done which will receive a reward, or placing their faith in what they do which will be burnt up.

then i pray that you get this sorted out, and come to understand the 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward part, which is not implying or saying that these have "faith" in their works, as you currently insist.

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
Are you so blind that you do not see that every child of God has acknowledged that they are sinful when they reach out to Jesus, in faith, that He has forgiven those sins.

so they say, yes, but their works is what will prove them, not their professions. The road to hell is paved with those, i guess. If you do not repent, you are not forgiven. And saying "i repent" is not repenting, obviously.

bbyrd009 · Oct 21, 2017

H. Richard said:
There is nothing that says the tax collector quit his job are stopped sinning.

well, you have no proof that he was sinning to begin with, see, tax-collecting is not a sin. You are aware that the tax-collector is held up as an example of humility, but you have somehow turned him into a sinner that gets a pass on his continued, unrepented sin, which you cannot even witness?

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