Who’s interpretation is true?
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bbyrd009
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Yes.
But none that stated that we were In Him, or chosen, or whatever, BEFORE the beginning.
(John 10:26) "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you".
(John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
One has to be of God to believe. One has to be of God to hear. He isn't saying you have to believe to be of God. He isn't saying you have to hear to be of God. Being of God comes first.
Stranger
I see.
Ok. If that's what you want to believe.
I do wonder where you learned how to exegete a verse, but no matter.
John 10:26
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. Jesus told them that they don't believe Him. Jesus' actions proved that He was from God Father, which gave Jesus the authority to do everything He did.
Jesus told the Pharisees that they are not of His sheep because Jesus' sheep recognize His voice. IOW, they hear His voice and know all is spoken with the authority of the Father.
However, the pharisees never did accept the authority of Jesus. In fact, they wanted to quiet Him.
This does NOT tell me that the pharisees were chosen before the beginning.
John 8:47
Jesus came to tell the truth. The pharisees do not accept the truth because they are of the devil, verse 44.
Not one of the pharisees can claim that Jesus was lying or that He committed even one sin.
And why don't the pharisees not believe Jesus?
Because they are not WITH GOD: (not of God)
IOW, they are not on God's side.
This does NOT tell me that the pharisees were chosen before the beginning.
One has to be ON GOD'S SIDE to believe.
This is another way of saying to be OF God. To have the essence of God.
bbyrd009
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maybe only Peter gets to be who he is at any one moment or something, while the rest of us have to rely on a switch being reliably thrown...but i doubt it
OzSpen
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GodsGrace,
My 13-year-old grand-daughter, Mackenzie, is a champion figure skater. She is the young lady on the right of the pictures:
She is a delightful young teen, so courteous and caring to her old PaPa.
Oz
The answer to this one is easy... No ones. God is true, Jesus is true teh Holy Spirit can only speak what He is told so therefore He is true, mens, wisdom, knowledge and understanding account for nothing, in God kingdom.
Concerning (John 10:26), You danced all around the emphasis of the verse. They don't believe because they are not of Christ's sheep. The order is clear. I never said the Pharisees were chosen before the beginning. I said there are those who are not of God, as those that Christ was addressing here.
Concerning (John 8:47), you continue the same dance steps. The order is clear. They cannot hear because they are not of God.
You evidence an incredible blind side, or bias in your white washing of these verses.
Stranger
OzSpen
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Stranger,
So you do seem to be a Calvinist in your Soteriology - doctrine of salvation!
Oz
Stranger,
So you do seem to be a Calvinist in your Soteriology - doctrine of salvation!
Oz
Does this make you comfortable to label someone? Thus all you have to do is argue against 'calvinism' instead of arguing with the individual? Why not just pay attention to what I have said and comment on that?
Stranger
OzSpen
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Because, in my understanding, you are unclear in what you are trying to communicate.
Do you support Calvinism's TULIP?
No, actually I am very clear in what I am communicating. I agree with Calvin in some areas, but in some I don't.
As far as TULIP, I don't even recall what all each stands for. I know I disagree with limited atonement.
Stranger
OzSpen
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Dr Google will help you find the definitions of TULIP. See also 'An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs the TULIP of Calvinism'.
Oz
Stranger,
You SHOULD be interested.
You're basing doctrine on Word Order for goodness sake.
This is NOT how it's done.
"He who is of God" means a person who believes in God and is following God.
If you believe that we were "of God" to put it your way, from the beginning of time means that God CHOSE who would be saved.
Do you at least agree to that?
If this is so, you are Calvinist in your belief system.
This means that you believe man has no free will to choose for himself whether or not he wishes to believe in God and follow His teachings.
You really should look it up. You'd be pretty horrified.
@Stranger
Here:
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
source:
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
Here:
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
source:
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
The word order is very important. You recognize the importance of it because you disagree with it. Thus your need to redefine 'of God'. But Jesus is clear, they do not believe because they are not of God. They do not believe because they are of their father the devil. The Pharisees were not making any show of following the devil. They made no testimony of believing the devil. Yet Jesus is clear, they were of their father the devil.
God's 'choosing' takes place before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4) Which means He is not looking down on earth and selecting some to be His or not His. He knows those who are His. And, he knows those that are not and never will be His. Thus those that are His He chooses to be in Christ, holy and without blame. (Eph. 1:4) And in their experience on earth, he chooses them through "santification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Note again the important word order.
Stranger
I only see that I disagree with limited atonement. The others, though I may have some differences, I see no problem with them.
Stranger
