Well I have never believed in the concept of burning in Hell forever I find it contrary to the Word and the character of a loving God but rather the second death the death of the soul where one is turned to ashes and its as if they never were. That is cease to exsit. but that said I ran across and intersting question on Hell I totally agree with the Pastors answer but the question was quite unique...............................................Q.Hell, as explained by a chemistry student, in answer to the question, “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic.” And no, I don’t know what that means but I found out. Does Hell give off heat or absorb heat? I won’t share the whole definition but it starts out like this: First we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let’s look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. Intrigued? The whole idea of Hell is so bizarre yet, as the student says, most religions believe there is a place called Hell. Where does this idea come from? Not from the Bible. When you need to find out the Truth, you need to go to the Bible—not to Greek mythology, not to Jonathan Edwards or Charles Haddon Spurgeon or Samuel Rutherford, not to cartoons, not to the position of most churches. We go to the Book. The theologians mentioned above describe a hell that is a fire that never consumes, where people cry out for mercy but it never comes, where devils with whips keep control, where Cain still leaps with pain. But a student of the Bible can research the Hebrew and Greek words translated hell in the King James Version (and other versions) or, those who feel unqualified to do such research or those who do not have the materials, can read what someone who spent his adult life searching for the Truth has said on the subject. The person I trust is Otis Q. Sellers, who writes about the subject in several issues , in his booklet The Rich Man and Lazarus, and in his definitive work on the subject, Sheol, Hades and Destruction. He says the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades “have been flagrantly mistranslated in order to lend support for the idea that such a place [hell] exists.” According to Sellers, the word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament where it is translated “grave” and “hell” 31 times each and “pit” three times by the translators of the King James Version. He adds that the translators of the American Standard Version decided not to translate the word at all but kept it as sheol in every occurrence. But we still need a definition. It means “state of death.” How do we know? As I have told my students so many times, if you don’t know what a word means, you try to figure it out by context. Maybe seeing the word once won’t help, but seeing it many times may make it possible to define the word without using the dictionary. In the case of sheol, we can look at it 65 times and every time the definition “state of death” fits. Here are a few examples. Genesis 37:35. The story is about Jacob who believes that his son Joseph has been devoured by an evil beast. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning.Proverbs 5:5. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [sheol]. II Samuel 22:6. The sorrows of hell [sheol] compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. Isaiah 38:10-11. These are the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah. I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. I said, I shall not see the Lord, even the Lord, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. Psalm 6:5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks? Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest. In Sellers book, Sheol, Hades, and Destruction, you can follow his search and look at every mention of the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades, as well as the word gehenna. You can test your interpretation of the place called hell against what the Scripture says. I invite you to go on the journey.
Hell Question
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Thanks for the invite, think I will pass. A Hell that is not just as real and just as eternal for the damned as Heaven is for the saved undermines our faith in many ways. Ways that perhaps are not as apparent without a broader focus.
I dont know how you come up with that?? why is a being tortured forever more punishment than ceasing to exist the death of your very soul??
(kriss;33404)
The person I trust is Otis Q. Sellers, who writes about the subject in several issues , in his booklet The Rich Man and Lazarus, and in his definitive work on the subject, Sheol, Hades and Destruction. He says the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades “have been flagrantly mistranslated in order to lend support for the idea that such a place [hell] exists.” According to Sellers, the word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament where it is translated “grave” and “hell” 31 times each and “pit” three times by the translators of the King James Version. He adds that the translators of the American Standard Version decided not to translate the word at all but kept it as sheol in every occurrence. But we still need a definition. It means “state of death.” How do we know? As I have told my students so many times, if you don’t know what a word means, you try to figure it out by context. Maybe seeing the word once won’t help, but seeing it many times may make it possible to define the word without using the dictionary. In the case of sheol, we can look at it 65 times and every time the definition “state of death” fits. Here are a few examples. Genesis 37:35. The story is about Jacob who believes that his son Joseph has been devoured by an evil beast. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning.Proverbs 5:5. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [sheol]. II Samuel 22:6. The sorrows of hell [sheol] compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. Isaiah 38:10-11. These are the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah. I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. I said, I shall not see the Lord, even the Lord, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. Psalm 6:5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks? Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest. In Sellers book, Sheol, Hades, and Destruction, you can follow his search and look at every mention of the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades, as well as the word gehenna. You can test your interpretation of the place called hell against what the Scripture says. I invite you to go on the journey.
Hi Kriss,The persons I most trust on this matter is Jesus.What the above teacher does not show that the Hebrew word used for Hell in the story of Dives was Hinnom which is greek was Gehenna which has been in existence since the time of Solomon who built altars there for his foreign wives false Gods. It is situated south west of Jerusalem and the altar was to the false god Moloch and when Josiah who found the book hidden in the temple, he dismantled it and the Valley became the Citys Ash heap with its insects life and perpectual fires which never went out and in Mark Christ used it to symbolise Hell. So Christ was the one who first implied that hell was the same as the place where fires burnt night and day.But Hell is not the last place the second death is not going to hell. The second death is the Lake of Fire where hell and the world of the dead is cast into. Revelation 21:8 (King James Version) 8.But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Rev 20:13-15.13.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 14:10-11 (King James Version)10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Jude 1:7.7.Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)46.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Everlasting punishment. The teachings of Christ is clear as is the teachings about the lake of fire and those who worship the beast. It does not cease. And God cannot lie, God sent his Son to die for us so we don't have to go there. But those who reject him are still to be judged, We must not cost someone their life because of wrong teachings.Faithful.
The person I trust is Otis Q. Sellers, who writes about the subject in several issues , in his booklet The Rich Man and Lazarus, and in his definitive work on the subject, Sheol, Hades and Destruction. He says the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades “have been flagrantly mistranslated in order to lend support for the idea that such a place [hell] exists.” According to Sellers, the word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament where it is translated “grave” and “hell” 31 times each and “pit” three times by the translators of the King James Version. He adds that the translators of the American Standard Version decided not to translate the word at all but kept it as sheol in every occurrence. But we still need a definition. It means “state of death.” How do we know? As I have told my students so many times, if you don’t know what a word means, you try to figure it out by context. Maybe seeing the word once won’t help, but seeing it many times may make it possible to define the word without using the dictionary. In the case of sheol, we can look at it 65 times and every time the definition “state of death” fits. Here are a few examples. Genesis 37:35. The story is about Jacob who believes that his son Joseph has been devoured by an evil beast. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning.Proverbs 5:5. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [sheol]. II Samuel 22:6. The sorrows of hell [sheol] compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. Isaiah 38:10-11. These are the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah. I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. I said, I shall not see the Lord, even the Lord, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. Psalm 6:5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks? Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest. In Sellers book, Sheol, Hades, and Destruction, you can follow his search and look at every mention of the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades, as well as the word gehenna. You can test your interpretation of the place called hell against what the Scripture says. I invite you to go on the journey.
Hi Kriss,The persons I most trust on this matter is Jesus.What the above teacher does not show that the Hebrew word used for Hell in the story of Dives was Hinnom which is greek was Gehenna which has been in existence since the time of Solomon who built altars there for his foreign wives false Gods. It is situated south west of Jerusalem and the altar was to the false god Moloch and when Josiah who found the book hidden in the temple, he dismantled it and the Valley became the Citys Ash heap with its insects life and perpectual fires which never went out and in Mark Christ used it to symbolise Hell. So Christ was the one who first implied that hell was the same as the place where fires burnt night and day.But Hell is not the last place the second death is not going to hell. The second death is the Lake of Fire where hell and the world of the dead is cast into. Revelation 21:8 (King James Version) 8.But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Rev 20:13-15.13.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 14:10-11 (King James Version)10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Jude 1:7.7.Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)46.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Everlasting punishment. The teachings of Christ is clear as is the teachings about the lake of fire and those who worship the beast. It does not cease. And God cannot lie, God sent his Son to die for us so we don't have to go there. But those who reject him are still to be judged, We must not cost someone their life because of wrong teachings.Faithful.
(kriss;33476)
I dont know how you come up with that?? why is a being tortured forever more punishment than ceasing to exist the death of your very soul??
Are you asking if given the choice of endless torture or death; which would I choose? That is fairly easy.Strictly speaking I see the punishment as being absent from God, as opposed to the reward of being in His Light. Torture is a part of being in the dark, though am not sure if we really understand what form that really takes. Much of that could be anguish at not being able to be where we were made to be - in the Light.We go to Heaven or Hell. Our eternal reward is being in the Light. The endless joy that brings is the benefit of receiving that reward.
I dont know how you come up with that?? why is a being tortured forever more punishment than ceasing to exist the death of your very soul??
Are you asking if given the choice of endless torture or death; which would I choose? That is fairly easy.Strictly speaking I see the punishment as being absent from God, as opposed to the reward of being in His Light. Torture is a part of being in the dark, though am not sure if we really understand what form that really takes. Much of that could be anguish at not being able to be where we were made to be - in the Light.We go to Heaven or Hell. Our eternal reward is being in the Light. The endless joy that brings is the benefit of receiving that reward.
Hmm...this usually concerns me about another question instead. What happens if you are not SAVED by our Lord Jesus Christ? or why do you need to be SAVED at all, if nothing serious is following.Now the question may be related to the topic, and the question is,Where do you want God to put you to, if you are not going to choose God within your life time on earth?1. heaven (will you go there if you didn't choose God2. Hell (you don't want to go there, I know)3. A free zone where God virtually does not exist (separation from God)4. any other choices?So is it fair that God puts you to the 'free zone' (such as Hades) to let you free? If so, what happens after the separation? Things actually are rather simple and straight forward now. Whatever the place void of God will be turned to Hell by the inhabitants themselves. If you cross the bottom-line defined by God and His Law......it's not surprised that you'll see the Lake of Fire.My 2 cents.And I barely remember our Lord ever said that He might consider the preaching of Gospel in Hades, He also warned that Hades will be burnt to the Lake of Fire (after the final judgement, I think).
Jon-Marc
New Member
I don't have to worry about hell since I'm born again. If I wasn't saved, I would prefer to no longer exist to burning forever in the lake of Fire that is mentioned in Revelation--where even hell itself will be cast.
(Faithful;33500)
Hi Kriss,The persons I most trust on this matter is Jesus.What the above teacher does not show that the Hebrew word used for Hell in the story of Dives was Hinnom which is greek was Gehenna which has been in existence since the time of Solomon who built altars there for his foreign wives false Gods. It is situated south west of Jerusalem and the altar was to the false god Moloch and when Josiah who found the book hidden in the temple, he dismantled it and the Valley became the Citys Ash heap with its insects life and perpectual fires which never went out and in Mark Christ used it to symbolise Hell. So Christ was the one who first implied that hell was the same as the place where fires burnt night and day.But Hell is not the last place the second death is not going to hell. The second death is the Lake of Fire where hell and the world of the dead is cast into. Revelation 21:8 (King James Version) 8.But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Rev 20:13-15.13.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 14:10-11 (King James Version)10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Jude 1:7.7.Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)46.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Everlasting punishment. The teachings of Christ is clear as is the teachings about the lake of fire and those who worship the beast. It does not cease. And God cannot lie, God sent his Son to die for us so we don't have to go there. But those who reject him are still to be judged, We must not cost someone their life because of wrong teachings.Faithful.
The lake of fire is where we are thrown yes that is the second death which is the death of your soul not eternal torture. And if your soul is gone, dead it is eternal no coming back and gehenna simply means a burning dump there was one outside of evey city it is as much symbolic as literalGod does not eternally torture people If you are away from Christ in the age to come you are in essencence being tormented There is no burning in Hell forever and anyone that needs the threat of burning in hell forever to be a good Christain isnt a true Christain in their heart anyway God wants us to come to him because we Love him not because we are threatned with torture. Sorry to my catholic friends but this teaching has done more harm than good
Hi Kriss,The persons I most trust on this matter is Jesus.What the above teacher does not show that the Hebrew word used for Hell in the story of Dives was Hinnom which is greek was Gehenna which has been in existence since the time of Solomon who built altars there for his foreign wives false Gods. It is situated south west of Jerusalem and the altar was to the false god Moloch and when Josiah who found the book hidden in the temple, he dismantled it and the Valley became the Citys Ash heap with its insects life and perpectual fires which never went out and in Mark Christ used it to symbolise Hell. So Christ was the one who first implied that hell was the same as the place where fires burnt night and day.But Hell is not the last place the second death is not going to hell. The second death is the Lake of Fire where hell and the world of the dead is cast into. Revelation 21:8 (King James Version) 8.But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Rev 20:13-15.13.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 14:10-11 (King James Version)10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Jude 1:7.7.Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)46.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Everlasting punishment. The teachings of Christ is clear as is the teachings about the lake of fire and those who worship the beast. It does not cease. And God cannot lie, God sent his Son to die for us so we don't have to go there. But those who reject him are still to be judged, We must not cost someone their life because of wrong teachings.Faithful.
The lake of fire is where we are thrown yes that is the second death which is the death of your soul not eternal torture. And if your soul is gone, dead it is eternal no coming back and gehenna simply means a burning dump there was one outside of evey city it is as much symbolic as literalGod does not eternally torture people If you are away from Christ in the age to come you are in essencence being tormented There is no burning in Hell forever and anyone that needs the threat of burning in hell forever to be a good Christain isnt a true Christain in their heart anyway God wants us to come to him because we Love him not because we are threatned with torture. Sorry to my catholic friends but this teaching has done more harm than good
(kriss;33573)
The lake of fire is where we are thrown yes that is the second death which is the death of your soul not eternal torture. And if your soul is gone, dead it is eternal no coming back and gehenna simply means a burning dump there was one outside of evey city it is as much symbolic as literalGod does not eternally torture people If you are away from Christ in the age to come you are in essencence being tormented There is no burning in Hell forever and anyone that needs the threat of burning in hell forever to be a good Christain isnt a true Christain in their heart anyway God wants us to come to him because we Love him not because we are threatned with torture. Sorry to my catholic friends but this teaching has done more harm than good
God isn't eternally torturing people, he is with those that are saved. He has no more to do with those who were never saved during their time on earth. I don't know who it is that's doing the torturing or if its even done by anyone/thing. I think its possible that its just pain, its not inflicted by anyone or anything, its just their. I don't really know, and luckily I won't have to find out. But one thing I believe is, that their is a hell, and those who aren't save are going to suffer 'their' for eternity.
The lake of fire is where we are thrown yes that is the second death which is the death of your soul not eternal torture. And if your soul is gone, dead it is eternal no coming back and gehenna simply means a burning dump there was one outside of evey city it is as much symbolic as literalGod does not eternally torture people If you are away from Christ in the age to come you are in essencence being tormented There is no burning in Hell forever and anyone that needs the threat of burning in hell forever to be a good Christain isnt a true Christain in their heart anyway God wants us to come to him because we Love him not because we are threatned with torture. Sorry to my catholic friends but this teaching has done more harm than good
God isn't eternally torturing people, he is with those that are saved. He has no more to do with those who were never saved during their time on earth. I don't know who it is that's doing the torturing or if its even done by anyone/thing. I think its possible that its just pain, its not inflicted by anyone or anything, its just their. I don't really know, and luckily I won't have to find out. But one thing I believe is, that their is a hell, and those who aren't save are going to suffer 'their' for eternity.
Agreed that there have been abuses regarding the fear of Hell. However the presence of abuse does not make all use of a teaching false. If it did then ALL teaching is false because we could imagine the abuse of it. The fear of the Lord should only be the beginning of our knowledge of Him, not the end of it or the cause of our wanting to know Him. The reason to fear Hell is because it exists. The reason to seek God is because He exists and we were made to know Him. Not because we fear being thrown into Hell, that is an abuse of the teachings on Hell.God makes humans with immortal souls and a free-will. Having a free-will demands a necessity in our free choice of eternal destinations. IOW there must be a Heaven and a Hell. That Hell should be the opposite of what Heaven represents (the greatest Joy, eternally being truly ALIVE) should not be denied just because the result is unpleasant to us (eternal torment, eternally "not alive").To be human is to have an immortal soul, something we have from some point prior to birth or at conception. Something immortal cannot by definition die, it can only be unmade. Only God could unmake us. So the only thing that can undo what has been made that way (an immortal soul being annihilated), would be God and not Hell. A soul then cannot be "consumed" in Hell such that it "dies" as to be annihilated. We could accept/expect some transformation, but if we are going to suggest annihilation then it must be God doing it and not Hell or Hell's fire. A "second death" of the soul in Hell then cannot mean an end to existence caused by being there. It must mean something else. (more on that in a few) Annihilation is not a transformation, it is ceasing to be. God is the reason we "are" and so then only God could be the reason we "are" not any longer.If annihilation is the end of the damned, then it begs the question of why God would not just do that rather than have that being suffer in Hell first. It is the same reason He did not wipe us all away in the OT. To be left to one's own will (as in "my" will not Thy Will be done) and the necessary resulting anguish of that choice is giving the immortal soul exactly what it desired in this life. Justice comes from Love, God is Love. Giving someone what they desire then is an act of Love and so it is Just. The seeds of Heaven, as do those for Hell, start in this life. So we can speak in limited terms of Heaven (and Hell) on earth right now.Agree Hell probably does transform a human; into what exactly is speculation. CS Lewis called it human "remains" like a ghost, representing what was once a human life. He even compares Heaven and Hell as imagining Hell as a crack in the floor of Heaven; so small as unnoticed by those in Heaven. A "second "death", the "destruction" of body and soul in this sense and referred to in scripture, could be understood not as totally ceasing to be (annihilated) but as becoming something that no longer resembles the other alternative, to be ALIVE (body and soul) in Heaven. It is death and destruction in the sense that to be die/be destroyed in Hell is to be "not alive" as those in Heaven are ALIVE. It is what "remains" and can no longer even be recognized of what was once a living human, but it still "is" and so is self-conscious. How much more terrible a thought than this? Certainly more terrible than even eternally burning. Yet still an abuse to say the fear of this is or should be our reason for loving/knowing God. Such abuse is false, it does not make the teaching of such a reality of Hell untrue, just the abuse of it.The damned in Hell cannot be alive in the sense a person in Heaven is really ALIVE (and so much more alive than here on earth). So being immortal in Hell cannot be understood as living. It must be the opposite of what it really means to be LIVING as human (to be in Heaven), to see things as they REALLY are. If we accept that humans were; made to LIVE in the LIGHT, with immortal souls and a free-will choice that results in either Heaven (in Light) or Hell (not in the Light); then it does not follow that one choice should automatically be the end of our existence.Besides, scripture says Hell is eternal and speaks of eternal suffering. If there is no one in Hell eternally (all annihilated), what would be the purpose of making Hell to last eternally? Why speak of eternal suffering?And what would be the purpose of creating a human soul having the attribute of immortality, if that soul is to be annihilated. The concept of annihilation is an unfitting end for the treatment of a human nature.In the end the question here is not whether or not the fear of Hell's fire has been abused, clearly it has been and by some still is. The OP did not really ask a question other than perhaps should we not agree that annihilation is a better and fitting end for the damned than eternal anguish/torment. The first question back that occurs to me is why should we think so? Why is it better and more fitting to see the damned eventually totally annihilated?
Matthew 25:41,46 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.SealedEternal
Let's take another view of this. God takes sin very seriously. If He didn't, then Christ went through a lot of agony, suffering, humiliation, eternal markings,etc. that he did unnecessarily if there didn't need to be a payment. I do believe hell is a literal, painful, real place that Jesus spoke more of than He did of heaven. God doesn't choose to send people there. It was created for the devil and his demons. People send themselves there by rejecting Christ. His gift was free, but not cheap. Also, how can we decide what parts of the Bible are meant to be literal and what is meant to be figurative speech? That is an area of great importance and we are told not to add to or take away from the Word. We cannot just say something is figurative, or not real, because it's our opinion. Jesus didn't say He was telling a parable when speaking about hell. Let's be careful, guys, to honor the precious Word and not cause a brother or sister to stumble. God loves greatly, but His character demands holiness.
Actually I think Jesus is quotes speaking more of Heaven than hell. It is true He was very explicit that Hell is real and spoke more explicitly about it than anyone else in scripture.The OP is asking what we think about the idea that Hell is not eternal or at least not for people going there. The idea being that they are annihilated after some point.
In Revelation Ch. 20, verse 10, It says, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Verse 14 says,"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Verse 15 goes on to say, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." To me, this seems pretty clear cut. Anyone not found in the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life, having accepted Christ, and having His blood pay for their sins, will suffer eternally for rejecting His gift, His generous sacrifice.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.What happens in this world (flesh) if one dies? Do we see that same body living? or are they are ceasing to exist...? Do we not bury the body?Same thing with the soul. They will not get tortured eternally as there is no burning in Hell forever doctrine. It's not God's Words.Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The Greek word for ever and ever is #1651) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity2) the worlds, universe3) period of time, ageaion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your post. Could you explain it further? It is my understanding that the Bible says the body will be joined with the spirit(1Thes.4:14-17) and then in Revelation it further discusses what goes on with bodies; some being eaten by birds; some being tortured; some coming up from out of the sea;then it mentions being cast into the lake of fire. How can this not be eternal punishment?
So a possible understanding is forever, or eternal, the first two definitions. You choose the third, "age" indicating a period of time, suggesting an end.Several problems with that choice.Do not think either Heaven or Hell are concepts that we can understand in terms of time or place as this current earthly realm is. So time or age, could not be understood as it would be now.The meaning of that Greek word cannot always be limited to just a period or age (that ends). So we must have another reason to believe it does in Rev 20.10. In fact only when the Greek is used once does it ususally get translated as world or age, implying an end or at least a change (could mark the beginning of something else). In Rev 20:10 it gets repeated.If we choose the same meaning for all cases then; we pray that God's glory only lasts for an "age" in Mt 6:13,Jesus would either lie about the fig tree which dies, instead of just stopping bearing fruit for just an "age" Mt 21.19, Mk11:14Jesus reign is ONLY for an "age", Luke 1:31Jesus promise we could live for ONLY an 'age" Jhn 6:51,58This verse becomes nonesense - Jhn8:35There are many more but lets skip to Rev and see how John used the same world elsewhere (and repeated it twice). Using the same logic of hell only lasting for an "age" ;Jesus dominion would not be eternal, just for an "age" Rev 1:6Jesus says after resurrection that he is ONLY alive for an "age" Rev1:18, 4:9John says the resurrected Jesus only lives for an "age" Rev 4:10, 5:14, 10:6, 15:7All creation says bless and honor our Lord, but ONLY for an age, Rev 5:13; 7:12At the end of the world Jesus reign is ONLY for an age Rev 11:15So unless one is going to agree with the above understanding of these verses, where the same word from REV 20:10 normally is translated "FOR EVER and EVER", then we need some other compelling reason to believe in this one final case John only meant for a limited "age". The fact the greek word here COULd be translated as world or limited age, does not mean we have to. And given where John and other writers repeat it twice it is normally understood as never ending, am not sure why we would need to look for another meaning here.
Okay. Thanks DrBubbaLove. Now I am seeing it more clearly. I just didn't see where he was going with it. To me, it's pretty obvious what the scriptures are saying. Why do we try to fancy it up so much? That's where we get in trouble with trying to make things be literal vs. figurative. It's best to not put that label on things unless it's pretty much spelled out for us that way or there's a sure source for it. Even then, I believe the Bible should be simple enough that an uneducated sinner can be saved by grace by picking it up for the first time and reading it. Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.
Well, I'd like to weigh in on this issue a bit with what my own studies have found.Number one, most of our concepts of hell are taken from a very famous works of Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno. As Kriss stated, there are no demons with whips or contrived methods of torture controlled by Satan himself as some kind of lord of sheol. If you think that's how it is, I recommend you do a word study on hell in the Bible and pay attention.Jumping back from that slight digression, we've got to look at what the good book says about hell.Isaiah 5 is a little know passage I like to cite, because I think it's about as blunt as it can be about hell, and what happens there.For length's sake, I will post the important verses, I want everyone who reads this to pull out a Bible and read the entire chapter in context.Isaiah 5:14
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
This subject is carried on throughout the chapter, it's referring to those that will end up in hell. The subject is the unsaved.Isaiah 5:16
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
I thought the above needed to be highlighted. This is the juxtaposition of our Righteous Father in his judgment as compared to the lowly. I think it also does a wonderful job of reminding us who is in control and who decides everything, which he has told us in His Word. Now, I oftentimes see a lot of "I think.." "I feel.." Let me take this moment to remind you that it is not any human that decides the fate of anyone. God has ordained the way it will be, regardless of whether or not you like it. We don't always like it and don't always agree, but that's how it will be, like it, or lump it.So let's jump in to what God says about it.Isaiah 5:24-25
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
There's a clear link with all of the similes here, in every event nothing is left. Whether it be by rotting away or burning away, nothing is left. This, my friends, is what happens in hell. Hell itself is our Father's RIGHTEOUS indignation.Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
These people who don't make it will be burnt up. We have clear further evidence of this dealing with the evil one himself, Satan.Our Father addresses and condemns Satan in Ezekiel 28.Ezekiel 28:2
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Ezekiel 28:8
They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Ezekiel 28:10
Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Death. Not eternal punishment.Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Again, fire. Go back to what was said in Hebrews 12 and Isaiah 5.There is a three-fold confirmation including the previous verse of this state:Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Ezekiel 28:19
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Three times, burning, ashes, nothingness.There are more of these types of verses out there, and I'll be happy to hit them. As I said, I've made a study of this and I hope you will do the same.Finally, I wanted to address the use of eternal that some cite as "undeniable" proof of eternal punishment. Eternal doesn't necessarily imply it's always done on its own. Those who are saved are qualified with everlasting life. Those who are not have eternal death. Eternal death does not equate with eternal punishment, eternal death means exactly that, death forever in the lake of fire. The lake consumes those therein and they are no longer, just as Satan will become ashes from within.As for Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17, Hebrews 12 answers that very quickly. If our Father is the source of the fire that devours, of course it would never be quenched.Hope what I have found helps and gets you pointed in the right direction.
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
This subject is carried on throughout the chapter, it's referring to those that will end up in hell. The subject is the unsaved.Isaiah 5:16
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
I thought the above needed to be highlighted. This is the juxtaposition of our Righteous Father in his judgment as compared to the lowly. I think it also does a wonderful job of reminding us who is in control and who decides everything, which he has told us in His Word. Now, I oftentimes see a lot of "I think.." "I feel.." Let me take this moment to remind you that it is not any human that decides the fate of anyone. God has ordained the way it will be, regardless of whether or not you like it. We don't always like it and don't always agree, but that's how it will be, like it, or lump it.So let's jump in to what God says about it.Isaiah 5:24-25
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
There's a clear link with all of the similes here, in every event nothing is left. Whether it be by rotting away or burning away, nothing is left. This, my friends, is what happens in hell. Hell itself is our Father's RIGHTEOUS indignation.Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
These people who don't make it will be burnt up. We have clear further evidence of this dealing with the evil one himself, Satan.Our Father addresses and condemns Satan in Ezekiel 28.Ezekiel 28:2
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Ezekiel 28:8
They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Ezekiel 28:10
Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Death. Not eternal punishment.Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Again, fire. Go back to what was said in Hebrews 12 and Isaiah 5.There is a three-fold confirmation including the previous verse of this state:Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Ezekiel 28:19
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Three times, burning, ashes, nothingness.There are more of these types of verses out there, and I'll be happy to hit them. As I said, I've made a study of this and I hope you will do the same.Finally, I wanted to address the use of eternal that some cite as "undeniable" proof of eternal punishment. Eternal doesn't necessarily imply it's always done on its own. Those who are saved are qualified with everlasting life. Those who are not have eternal death. Eternal death does not equate with eternal punishment, eternal death means exactly that, death forever in the lake of fire. The lake consumes those therein and they are no longer, just as Satan will become ashes from within.As for Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17, Hebrews 12 answers that very quickly. If our Father is the source of the fire that devours, of course it would never be quenched.Hope what I have found helps and gets you pointed in the right direction.
Greetings, Denver. I noticed that you are quoting mostly OT scriptures and it was believed by many OT people that death was just "sheol" or a falling asleep with nothing more to come. That was the argument among the Sadducees (saying there was no resurrection) and the Pharisees (believing there was a resurrection).Then along comes Jesus, speaking of the place where the worm dies not, the thirst isn't quenched, the gnashing of teeth, etc. In Mark Ch. 9, it is said twice about hell's fire,"where the worm does not die, and fire is not quenced". That sounds like not means never. In verse 49, it says, "for everyone will be seasoned with fire..." which is our works being tried by fire, like it says in 1 Corinthians 3:9-17. Also, in Lamentations 3:22, it speaks of how we are not consumed due to God's mercy. I know you are entitled to your opinion, but I honestly believe hell is real and it is forever. I have studied the Bible on this topic. How can we explain those who are dying in hospital rooms and pastors have witnessed them screaming to get the fire off of them? There have been several accounts of this that I have heard; not just pastors, but layman too. On the other end of the spectrum, Christians have seen angels and heard them singing. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather my friends and family members believe it's literal and it's eternal now rather than find it out and it be too late
This is too important to play a guessing game with. Pray for discernment, my Brothers and Sisters, so you can know how to share with others when it comes time to witness about the Lord and answer these questions they may have. Love to all-HBG
This is too important to play a guessing game with. Pray for discernment, my Brothers and Sisters, so you can know how to share with others when it comes time to witness about the Lord and answer these questions they may have. Love to all-HBGSimilar threads
