Thinking....

Helen · Oct 28, 2017

My nephew has been in Mainland China for 25 years...this week he led a man through a major healing...an infected tumour which was rotting ( after two surgeries) The man would rather die than have a third surgery.

In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people. I told him that Jesus healed people as a sign that He had the authority to forgive their sins and I referred him to scriptures such as one in Matthew 9:5-7. "For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk?"
I highlighted God’s grace and His unconditional love....." End Quote.

I found this interesting because even though I have come out of much of the old teachings of requirements into grace ...I saw that with my nephew saying that ... I still had some lingering thoughts of the old nature hanging around.
" We do this, God does that.."

We had so much teaching on repentance before healing...and faith for healing...this statement cause me to jerk and pause.

I am not sure it is as cut or dried as my nephew stated. And we all know there are places in the NT where they were healed according to their faith.
But also many places where God just moved in, on their behalf and healed.

.

DPMartin · Oct 28, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
My nephew has been in Mainland China for 25 years...this week he led a man through a major healing...an infected tumour which was rotting ( after two surgeries) The man would rather die than have a third surgery.

In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people. I told him that Jesus healed people as a sign that He had the authority to forgive their sins and I referred him to scriptures such as one in Matthew 9:5-7. "For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk?"
I highlighted God’s grace and His unconditional love....." End Quote.

I found this interesting because even though I have come out of much of the old teachings of requirements into grace ...I saw that with my nephew saying that ... I still had some lingering thoughts of the old nature hanging around.
" We do this, God does that.."

We had so much teaching on repentance before healing...and faith for healing...this statement cause me to jerk and pause.

I am not sure it is as cut or dried as my nephew stated. And we all know there are places in the NT where they were healed according to their faith.
But also many places where God just moved in, on their behalf and healed.

.

the unconditional part maybe a misunderstanding on your nephew's part. if my memory serves in acts the apostles seek the Lord for healing to promote the Glory of God hence the ministry of Grace they were executing. no one did anything but lay in Peter's shadow to be healed. this was God's verification to the public that He was with Peter. even Jesus said to the Pharisees if they didn't believe His words then believe the works because the work could only be of God. hence Jesus is the one to hear, same with the apostles that they were the ones to hear.

how many people is God willing to heal that will not follow, so that the ones of faith may hear and follow to Him? the faith does come by hearing correct? how many people did Jesus feed with the small amount in the baskets, and they return only to be feed again?

Job · Oct 28, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people.

Your nephew is right.

Consider those who were troubled with demons.

.

Butterfly · Oct 29, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
My nephew has been in Mainland China for 25 years...this week he led a man through a major healing...an infected tumour which was rotting ( after two surgeries) The man would rather die than have a third surgery.

In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people. I told him that Jesus healed people as a sign that He had the authority to forgive their sins and I referred him to scriptures such as one in Matthew 9:5-7. "For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk?"
I highlighted God’s grace and His unconditional love....." End Quote.

I found this interesting because even though I have come out of much of the old teachings of requirements into grace ...I saw that with my nephew saying that ... I still had some lingering thoughts of the old nature hanging around.
" We do this, God does that.."

We had so much teaching on repentance before healing...and faith for healing...this statement cause me to jerk and pause.

I am not sure it is as cut or dried as my nephew stated. And we all know there are places in the NT where they were healed according to their faith.
But also many places where God just moved in, on their behalf and healed.

.

I found the word ' prompted ' jumping out at me - maybe, In this mans situation, he needed to hear those words in order to believe that God would heal him. God knows the inner thoughts , doubts ect.
We know very little about the man himself, but we do know that God deals with people as individuals. Look at all the different instructions that were often given to people who desired healing, some were instant, some followed instructions, some by touch, some through words, some from a distance.
Great testimony though - so pleased for the man concerned xxx
Butterfly

Angelina · Oct 29, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
My nephew has been in Mainland China for 25 years...this week he led a man through a major healing...an infected tumour which was rotting ( after two surgeries) The man would rather die than have a third surgery.

In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people. I told him that Jesus healed people as a sign that He had the authority to forgive their sins and I referred him to scriptures such as one in Matthew 9:5-7. "For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk?"
I highlighted God’s grace and His unconditional love....." End Quote.

I found this interesting because even though I have come out of much of the old teachings of requirements into grace ...I saw that with my nephew saying that ... I still had some lingering thoughts of the old nature hanging around.

" We do this, God does that.."

We had so much teaching on repentance before healing...and faith for healing...this statement cause me to jerk and pause.

I am not sure it is as cut or dried as my nephew stated. And we all know there are places in the NT where they were healed according to their faith.
But also many places where God just moved in, on their behalf and healed.

.

Your nephew is correct. Salvation and healing are two different things. God can and does heal anyone [believer and non-believer alike] but you must repent and receive Christ into your life to be saved.

101G · Oct 30, 2017

John 9:1-4 "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". are we not sent by the Lord Jesus? John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you". the work of salvation is in the work of God to heal. both physically and spiritually. for some believe because they have "SEEN, but blessed are they who have not seen but believe.

so the nephew letter is to believe.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
My nephew has been in Mainland China for 25 years...this week he led a man through a major healing...an infected tumour which was rotting ( after two surgeries) The man would rather die than have a third surgery.

In his email my nephew referenced what he said to the man..
"I felt prompted to comment that God does not require belief or repentance before healing people. I told him that Jesus healed people as a sign that He had the authority to forgive their sins and I referred him to scriptures such as one in Matthew 9:5-7. "For which is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up thy bed and walk?"
I highlighted God’s grace and His unconditional love....." End Quote.

I found this interesting because even though I have come out of much of the old teachings of requirements into grace ...I saw that with my nephew saying that ... I still had some lingering thoughts of the old nature hanging around.
" We do this, God does that.."

We had so much teaching on repentance before healing...and faith for healing...this statement cause me to jerk and pause.

I am not sure it is as cut or dried as my nephew stated. And we all know there are places in the NT where they were healed according to their faith.
But also many places where God just moved in, on their behalf and healed.

Is there a difference between having faith and the actual remission of sins? Don't demons believe in God too? Will demons be forgiven? According to the entire Scripture in context he cited from, this was in response to the pharisees who called his act of forgiveness on the part of the man with palsy blasphemy. Would Jesus forgive the sins of someone who didn't have any faith to start with? He then tells said individual to "arise and walk". Which one came first, his faith or the healing? Does the chicken come first or the egg? In every instance that I've seen of Jesus healing, never once does it state that any of them didn't have faith.

(Matthew 9:1-8) "And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. {2} And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. {3} And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. {4} And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? {5} For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? {6} But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. {7} And he arose, and departed to his house. {8} But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men."

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Dcopymope said:
In every instance that I've seen of Jesus healing, never once does it state that any of them didn't have faith.

It doesn't state that they had faith either. In some instances yes, but not in all.

Consider the demon possessed...

.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
It doesn't state that they had faith either. In some instances yes, but not in all.

Consider the demon possessed...

.

Well, does it have to say they had faith? What about the times when he specifically asked them if they believe before he exercised the demon?

(Mark 9:17-27) "And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; {18} And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. {19} He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. {20} And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. {21} And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. {22} And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. {23} Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. {24} And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. {25} When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. {26} And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. {27} But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose."

Are all things possible to him that does not believe too? Would Jesus have healed him had he said he didn't believe? Did Peter fall in the water because of his faith, or because of the lack thereof?

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Dcopymope said:
Well, does it have to say they had faith?

Dcopymope said:
In every instance that I've seen of Jesus healing, never once does it state that any of them didn't have faith.

I never said it did and that's what I stated.

As for the reference in Mark, it was the father that believed, not he demon possessed child.

.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
I never said it did and that's what I stated.

As for the reference in Mark, it was the father that believed, not he demon possessed child.

.

Well its not like he could just ask the child if he believed anyway, since the demon within him was having too much fun rolling him around on the ground and foaming at the mouth, acting like a lunatic. The faith of his father was enough for Jesus, but the faith had to come from someone somewhere nonetheless, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have bothered asking him to begin with and just exercised the demon. If faith mattered to Jesus in this instance, I see no reason why it magically wouldn't in all other cases of his miracles, and that includes Peter walking on water.

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Dcopymope said:
If faith mattered to Jesus in this instance, I see no reason why it magically wouldn't in all other cases of his miracles,

I don't know what to tell you other than faith was not a part of all the miracles Jesus performed.

And I've noticed you mention magic a lot when referencing miracles. Do you believe magic is a part the miracles Jesus performed?

.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
I don't know what to tell you other than faith was not a part of all the miracles Jesus performed.

And I've noticed you mention magic a lot when referencing miracles. Do you believe magic is a part the miracles Jesus performed?

.

No.......I guess I should have just used another word like 'miraculously' or something instead of magically. Her nephew claims that healing doesn't require ones faith, and uses a verse to back up his statement that in fact shows quite the contrary................

.............well, how were you expecting me of all people to respond to that? Am I supposed to just agree with it like everyone else here or what?

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Dcopymope said:
well, how were you expecting me of all people to respond to that? Am I supposed to just agree with it like everyone else here or what?

I didn't agree just to agree. I agreed because I know what the scriptures say relating to this issue.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
I didn't agree just to agree. I agreed because I know what the scriptures say relating to this issue.

So the scripture he used states that the man with palsy, which is what that particular verse was about, didn't have to have faith to be healed when he clearly did have faith? Does it even imply that this is so when taking the scripture in its entirety?

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Dcopymope said:
So the scripture he used states that the man with palsy, which is what that particular verse was about, didn't have to have faith to be healed when he clearly did have faith? Does it even imply that this is so when taking the scripture in its entirety?

Here are 2 instances where faith was never mentioned.

Mark 1
29 Now as soon as they had come out of the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
30 But Simon’s wife’s mother lay sick with a fever, and they told Him about her at once.
31 So He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and immediately the fever left her. And she served them.
32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

There are other passages similar to these.

.

Richard_oti · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
<snip>
and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
.

And in a couple of instances in which they did speak:

In Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you
come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"

In Luke 4:34 "Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have
you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"

Compare / contrast:

Pro 9:10 The fear of YHVH is the beginning of wisdom; And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

In John 6:69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.

Dcopymope · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
Here are 2 instances where faith was never mentioned.

Mark 1
29 Now as soon as they had come out of the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
30 But Simon’s wife’s mother lay sick with a fever, and they told Him about her at once.
31 So He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and immediately the fever left her. And she served them.
32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

There are other passages similar to these.

.

Of course there are, but like I said, it doesn't say that faith was of no concern in any of them. Even unbelievers sins can be forgiven If I am to believe "ByGraces" nephew. Can an unbelievers sins be forgiven? Does the chicken or egg come first?

Job · Oct 30, 2017

Richard_oti said:
And in a couple of instances in which they did speak:

In Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you
come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"

In Luke 4:34 "Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have
you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"

Contrast:

Pro 9:10 The fear of YHVH is the beginning of wisdom; And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

In John 6:69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.

I showed you where faith wasn't necessary for healing. What you do with that is up to you.

I made my point. That's really all I wanted to accomplish.
.

Richard_oti · Oct 30, 2017

Job said:
I showed you where faith wasn't necessary for healing. What you do with that is up to you.

I made my point. That's really all I wanted to accomplish.
.

I wasn't disagreeing with nor arguing your point. In fact, I agree.

It was just what came to mind reading your post. No offense intended.

Thinking....

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