Even if Luke 16:19ff is a parable it still donates spiritual truth, and it says the rich man was tormented by flames.Kevin
Hell Question
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The torment of burning within, knowing you did not overcome, and able to see across the gulf those who did. The shame of it within, the desire to be where they are, truly is burning torment.This is a place where flesh and blood cannot enter. Yet many cannot think spiritually but only think carnally.
(Denver;33840)
I'm sorry, but that's complete and utter nonsense to say that. It's hardly worth the response, but I don't appreciate the suggestion that we're somehow trying to undermine Christ.
Your reason of saying so?You don't need to be *saved* if there's no serious consequences, no Christ is necessary if you don't need to be saved.Anyways, Matthew 25:46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.It doesn't seem that the verse leaves any room for spinning.
I'm sorry, but that's complete and utter nonsense to say that. It's hardly worth the response, but I don't appreciate the suggestion that we're somehow trying to undermine Christ.
Your reason of saying so?You don't need to be *saved* if there's no serious consequences, no Christ is necessary if you don't need to be saved.Anyways, Matthew 25:46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.It doesn't seem that the verse leaves any room for spinning.
(Denver;36209)
No offense intended here guys, but if you'd rather simply not exist then be with Father...well...I don't really know what I'd say to that, it's just not something I can comprehend all too well.
I do think that you made a good point here.
Some said that the dead will be erased (first death), restored (for the judgement) then erased again right away (second death).:naughty:Matthew 25:41Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.When it is said clearly in the above verse, it always surprises me that when someone said with certainty that the "eternal hell fire" is unbiblical and invented by man for the effect of hell fear. I am not surprise by another totally different interpretation, what surprises me is the way how people sound if the "Hell doctrine" is invented without biblical supports.While I also notice that the Scripture is not authenticated enough that people demand better Greek or Hebrew interpreters than those who interpreted the Scripture by God's will and with His inspiration.
No offense intended here guys, but if you'd rather simply not exist then be with Father...well...I don't really know what I'd say to that, it's just not something I can comprehend all too well.
I do think that you made a good point here.
(Hawkins;36870)
Your reason of saying so?You don't need to be *saved* if there's no serious consequences, no Christ is necessary if you don't need to be saved.Anyways, Matthew 25:46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.It doesn't seem that the verse leaves any room for spinning.
Nonexistence is eternal.Perish means eternal.Perpetual sleep is eternal.Blotted out of the book of life means not living.
Your reason of saying so?You don't need to be *saved* if there's no serious consequences, no Christ is necessary if you don't need to be saved.Anyways, Matthew 25:46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.It doesn't seem that the verse leaves any room for spinning.
Nonexistence is eternal.Perish means eternal.Perpetual sleep is eternal.Blotted out of the book of life means not living.
Hi allLuke 16 tells of the Rich Man who is one of the "incorrigibly wicked" who is raised, judged, and about to be burnt up in the lake of fire which will cover the earth like lava - purifying it.There is a difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. Death is eternal punishment - but not eternal punishment.If Satan is an example of being thrown in the lake of fire, then we learn from this that Satan will be burnt up.Ezekiel 28:16-19 O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. To "never be any more" is the second death - eternal death. If a spirit being like Lucifer/Satan can be ashes, devoured, never be any more, how much more mortal man when thrown into the lake of fire or lava.
I was reading about this other day if you really look at whats said about the Rich man it never really says he is evil. He also never speaks with God. We assume he is evil because he denied the poor man and is on the other side of the gulf.This tells me there is much more to this verse than a litteral reading explanation explains
What else is there to say about the Rich man? He saw Lazarus Begging and Dying for help, and he stood there til the Day Lazarus died. You think, me being a Christian, being Rich(Spiritually speaking) and seeing a poor person(Poor in Spirit and in Need of Christ) and the Holy Ghost is telling me to minister to them, you think me not Ministering to that person, that it would not be an act of evil Kriss? I think it would be, I may go as far as to say it's an unpardonable sin.
(Unorthodox Christian;36954)
What else is there to say about the Rich man? He saw Lazarus Begging and Dying for help, and he stood there til the Day Lazarus died. You think, me being a Christian, being Rich(Spiritually speaking) and seeing a poor person(Poor in Spirit and in Need of Christ) and the Holy Ghost is telling me to minister to them, you think me not Ministering to that person, that it would not be an act of evil Kriss? I think it would be, I may go as far as to say it's an unpardonable sin.
Backup to Luke16:11 and re-read.The richman was rich from illgotten gains.
What else is there to say about the Rich man? He saw Lazarus Begging and Dying for help, and he stood there til the Day Lazarus died. You think, me being a Christian, being Rich(Spiritually speaking) and seeing a poor person(Poor in Spirit and in Need of Christ) and the Holy Ghost is telling me to minister to them, you think me not Ministering to that person, that it would not be an act of evil Kriss? I think it would be, I may go as far as to say it's an unpardonable sin.
Backup to Luke16:11 and re-read.The richman was rich from illgotten gains.
Ok, I may have stressed my point to much LOL. I'll break it down, Would I be considered and Evil man if I was Rich, living in Africa, and just a few miles, maybe 1-2 I see a village of starving people. Knowing that I have the funds, goods and resources to help them, and I don't, wouldn't you consider me an evil man? I would, and I should be put to hell.
I think the richmans biggest crime was that he did nothing. Theres nothing in the text to say that Lazarus was ill treated by the Richman, Lazarus was just part of the scenary to him. The richman was so wrapped up in himself and his wealth that poor old lazarus might as well been invisable.
(kriss;33404)
Well I have never believed in the concept of burning in Hell forever I find it contrary to the Word and the character of a loving God but rather the second death the death of the soul where one is turned to ashes and its as if they never were. That is cease to exsit. but that said I ran across and intersting question on Hell I totally agree with the Pastors answer but the question was quite unique...............................................Q.Hell, as explained by a chemistry student, in answer to the question, “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic.” And no, I don’t know what that means but I found out. Does Hell give off heat or absorb heat? I won’t share the whole definition but it starts out like this: First we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let’s look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. Intrigued? The whole idea of Hell is so bizarre yet, as the student says, most religions believe there is a place called Hell. Where does this idea come from? Not from the Bible. When you need to find out the Truth, you need to go to the Bible—not to Greek mythology, not to Jonathan Edwards or Charles Haddon Spurgeon or Samuel Rutherford, not to cartoons, not to the position of most churches. We go to the Book. The theologians mentioned above describe a hell that is a fire that never consumes, where people cry out for mercy but it never comes, where devils with whips keep control, where Cain still leaps with pain. But a student of the Bible can research the Hebrew and Greek words translated hell in the King James Version (and other versions) or, those who feel unqualified to do such research or those who do not have the materials, can read what someone who spent his adult life searching for the Truth has said on the subject. The person I trust is Otis Q. Sellers, who writes about the subject in several issues , in his booklet The Rich Man and Lazarus, and in his definitive work on the subject, Sheol, Hades and Destruction. He says the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades “have been flagrantly mistranslated in order to lend support for the idea that such a place [hell] exists.” According to Sellers, the word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament where it is translated “grave” and “hell” 31 times each and “pit” three times by the translators of the King James Version. He adds that the translators of the American Standard Version decided not to translate the word at all but kept it as sheol in every occurrence. But we still need a definition. It means “state of death.” How do we know? As I have told my students so many times, if you don’t know what a word means, you try to figure it out by context. Maybe seeing the word once won’t help, but seeing it many times may make it possible to define the word without using the dictionary. In the case of sheol, we can look at it 65 times and every time the definition “state of death” fits. Here are a few examples. Genesis 37:35. The story is about Jacob who believes that his son Joseph has been devoured by an evil beast. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning.Proverbs 5:5. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [sheol]. II Samuel 22:6. The sorrows of hell [sheol] compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. Isaiah 38:10-11. These are the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah. I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. I said, I shall not see the Lord, even the Lord, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. Psalm 6:5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks? Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest. In Sellers book, Sheol, Hades, and Destruction, you can follow his search and look at every mention of the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades, as well as the word gehenna. You can test your interpretation of the place called hell against what the Scripture says. I invite you to go on the journey.
I can't believe that you believe what so and so quoted rather the what the Bible says.I.d rather believe what God has said, after all Jesus should know He went there so we don't have to, Acts 2; 23--24,. Psalm 22: 20,Then there is Luke 16: 23--28. Was Jesus telling lies, was he just trying to frighten us. Jesus is not a deceiver or a liar. Let God be true and evry man a liar.
Well I have never believed in the concept of burning in Hell forever I find it contrary to the Word and the character of a loving God but rather the second death the death of the soul where one is turned to ashes and its as if they never were. That is cease to exsit. but that said I ran across and intersting question on Hell I totally agree with the Pastors answer but the question was quite unique...............................................Q.Hell, as explained by a chemistry student, in answer to the question, “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic.” And no, I don’t know what that means but I found out. Does Hell give off heat or absorb heat? I won’t share the whole definition but it starts out like this: First we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let’s look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. Intrigued? The whole idea of Hell is so bizarre yet, as the student says, most religions believe there is a place called Hell. Where does this idea come from? Not from the Bible. When you need to find out the Truth, you need to go to the Bible—not to Greek mythology, not to Jonathan Edwards or Charles Haddon Spurgeon or Samuel Rutherford, not to cartoons, not to the position of most churches. We go to the Book. The theologians mentioned above describe a hell that is a fire that never consumes, where people cry out for mercy but it never comes, where devils with whips keep control, where Cain still leaps with pain. But a student of the Bible can research the Hebrew and Greek words translated hell in the King James Version (and other versions) or, those who feel unqualified to do such research or those who do not have the materials, can read what someone who spent his adult life searching for the Truth has said on the subject. The person I trust is Otis Q. Sellers, who writes about the subject in several issues , in his booklet The Rich Man and Lazarus, and in his definitive work on the subject, Sheol, Hades and Destruction. He says the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades “have been flagrantly mistranslated in order to lend support for the idea that such a place [hell] exists.” According to Sellers, the word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament where it is translated “grave” and “hell” 31 times each and “pit” three times by the translators of the King James Version. He adds that the translators of the American Standard Version decided not to translate the word at all but kept it as sheol in every occurrence. But we still need a definition. It means “state of death.” How do we know? As I have told my students so many times, if you don’t know what a word means, you try to figure it out by context. Maybe seeing the word once won’t help, but seeing it many times may make it possible to define the word without using the dictionary. In the case of sheol, we can look at it 65 times and every time the definition “state of death” fits. Here are a few examples. Genesis 37:35. The story is about Jacob who believes that his son Joseph has been devoured by an evil beast. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning.Proverbs 5:5. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [sheol]. II Samuel 22:6. The sorrows of hell [sheol] compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me. Isaiah 38:10-11. These are the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah. I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. I said, I shall not see the Lord, even the Lord, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. Psalm 6:5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks? Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest. In Sellers book, Sheol, Hades, and Destruction, you can follow his search and look at every mention of the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades, as well as the word gehenna. You can test your interpretation of the place called hell against what the Scripture says. I invite you to go on the journey.
I can't believe that you believe what so and so quoted rather the what the Bible says.I.d rather believe what God has said, after all Jesus should know He went there so we don't have to, Acts 2; 23--24,. Psalm 22: 20,Then there is Luke 16: 23--28. Was Jesus telling lies, was he just trying to frighten us. Jesus is not a deceiver or a liar. Let God be true and evry man a liar.
Interesting discussion going here....long thread so I had to go back and read it twice again. I am not sure where we are on this thread at this time, but I do love reading and studying God's Word. So I read some more and came across these scriptures that I wanted to share. What are your thoughts on these? ~~~ Mat 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ~`` Sorry to ask so many questions.. I know lots have been said here thanks. One thing for sure about this thread ,it is getting us to read our Bible and we are learning together.. That is a good thing ! Extra hugs for you(((( Kriss and Denver)))):grouphug:s
Okay, a lot of you people are SO educated and have SO much knowledge of the Bible that my opinion seems so...lacking. Anyway, it may not sound very intellectual and I don't have scripture to quote, but I believe Hell is actually Hell. Not ceasing to exist, but burning for eternity. That's the punishment for not accepting Jesus. It may sound like a harsh punishment, but He makes the alternative very simple. Accept Him, know Him, revere Him, worship Him and walk with Him. Give Him the glory and He will glorify you. If not, you burn in hell. Yikes. It sounds pretty terrifying, but it's what I believe to be the truth.
One thing that eternal torment believers forget or maybe are not aware of is the first earth age before sons of God tabernacled in flesh bodies. Satan rebelled and 1/3 followed Satan. The (God) eternal torment believers paint would have destroyed the rebels right then and there. Yet OUR heavenly Father did not destroy them but destroyed that earth age. As clear as II Pet.3:9 states, God is not willing that any should perish. Instead, God had a plan for every soul to be born innocent through the womb. Then God Himself tabernacled in the flesh to pay the price and defeat Satan, that is death. I find it insulting that eternal torment believers paint OUR heavenly Father in such a way. It is almost ignorant with all the scripture documentation to the contrary. To teach or believe in eternal torment is like worshipping Baal or Molech. This is what OUR heavenly Father had to say about that.Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.Such a thing never entered His mind.
Actually people following Baal or Molech believed thier gods would annihilate people not bowing to them. But since annihilation is not a Catholic belief, we can't use the adopt-a-pagan belief claim here. Sorry, could not resist.
I personally don't think we should take the Rich man and Lazarus as real people.I feel sorry for any true believer who lived like Lazarus (with dogs licking his sores). This is not normally the way God treats his people.So, I don't think we should treat the rich man as a real, literal person who lived.They are types. OK it is unusual for the Bible to give a name to any "type" - but I have heard that Lazarus was like "Paddy" if you were telling an Irish joke - a stereotypical person.Also, the story uses non-specific language like "gulf" and "Abraham's bosom".But I still do not have a problem with the fact that FOR WHATEVER REASON (and the reason given was that the rich man had no time for God - after all, his riches met all his needs), he was raised, judged, and found wanting - and about to be incinerated as useless to God. Every parable has only one point it is trying to make. That is the point of the story. One should not look at the peripheral issues and try to decide doctrine on these. There are much clearer scriptures which tell us what hell is like.One of the clearest is Sodom. It is given as an example of "eternal fire"Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Is Sodom burning today? No. It was totally consumed. That is how "eternal fire" works - it destroys the city eternally, but the punishment is not eternal punishing but eternal punishment.
(DrBubbaLove;37060)
Actually people following Baal or Molech believed thier gods would annihilate people not bowing to them. But since annihilation is not a Catholic belief, we can't use the adopt-a-pagan belief claim here. Sorry, could not resist.
Oh the Irony, the Same Catholic Church that Uses James 5:16-17 as a Way for their FATHER(Pope) to forgive Sins. A man ahead of God? Sounds Pagan to me. Praying to the Dead and statues of saints? Pagan.
Actually people following Baal or Molech believed thier gods would annihilate people not bowing to them. But since annihilation is not a Catholic belief, we can't use the adopt-a-pagan belief claim here. Sorry, could not resist.
Oh the Irony, the Same Catholic Church that Uses James 5:16-17 as a Way for their FATHER(Pope) to forgive Sins. A man ahead of God? Sounds Pagan to me. Praying to the Dead and statues of saints? Pagan.
(Unorthodox Christian;37093)
Oh the Irony, the Same Catholic Church that Uses James 5:16-17 as a Way for their FATHER(Pope) to forgive Sins. A man ahead of God? Sounds Pagan to me. Praying to the Dead and statues of saints? Pagan.
Lighten up a little. The irony would be not seeing the connection between annihilation and Baal as the same labeling process and the humor of my turning the tables on the typical use of a "pagan" connection. And that is truly ironic.BTW I see no connection between people's belief in annihilation and Baal or pagans in case we are confusing anybody. It is true pagans held a belief in it however.This topic has everything to do with who we say God is and how that pertains to perhaps an uneasy sense that people do not deserve to suffer eternally and/or the thought those in Heaven would know people were suffering and therefore be sad, and/or a general feeling a God of Love/Mercy could not allow eternal suffering to happen, and/or some might say that it would not be Just.It is only if we see any of those as true or impossible to explain without compromising our other beliefs about God that annihilation becomes necessary to resolve the resulting dilemma. As some of us do not hold any of those conditions as true or believe it impossible to explain without compromise, we do not have the same problems those things pose for others. The Bible has been used here to support both views, with neither side convincing the other that their use of the quoted scripture even addresses the subject. You can call me bias, but to me the case against annihilation from scripture is stronger and does not require acrobatics or suspension of normal textual evaluation to follow it.So there is no winning (or losing) this debate here with scripture. Assuming the dilemmas mentioned above were real to me, I can understand why one would wish to believe in annihilation. As I do not see the dilemmas there is no reason for me to think that my understanding of some very straight forward scripture about Hell is flawed. The opposing side sees the dilemmas and therefore insists that not only is our understanding of scripture flawed, but also our views of God, Love, Mercy, and Justice are flawed because we can't see the dilemma. So as I have repeated before several times, this is not just a problem with understanding scripture on Hell. It more properly goes to some very fundamental things that all Christians are suppose to believe about God.And just to get it in again, for the Catholic only, we have the added weight of tradition as evident in ancient writings for support against annihilation, but of course we would never suggest that others should refer to that. It would be pointless to anyone but Catholics to consider what Christians believed thousands of years ago.
Oh the Irony, the Same Catholic Church that Uses James 5:16-17 as a Way for their FATHER(Pope) to forgive Sins. A man ahead of God? Sounds Pagan to me. Praying to the Dead and statues of saints? Pagan.
Lighten up a little. The irony would be not seeing the connection between annihilation and Baal as the same labeling process and the humor of my turning the tables on the typical use of a "pagan" connection. And that is truly ironic.BTW I see no connection between people's belief in annihilation and Baal or pagans in case we are confusing anybody. It is true pagans held a belief in it however.This topic has everything to do with who we say God is and how that pertains to perhaps an uneasy sense that people do not deserve to suffer eternally and/or the thought those in Heaven would know people were suffering and therefore be sad, and/or a general feeling a God of Love/Mercy could not allow eternal suffering to happen, and/or some might say that it would not be Just.It is only if we see any of those as true or impossible to explain without compromising our other beliefs about God that annihilation becomes necessary to resolve the resulting dilemma. As some of us do not hold any of those conditions as true or believe it impossible to explain without compromise, we do not have the same problems those things pose for others. The Bible has been used here to support both views, with neither side convincing the other that their use of the quoted scripture even addresses the subject. You can call me bias, but to me the case against annihilation from scripture is stronger and does not require acrobatics or suspension of normal textual evaluation to follow it.So there is no winning (or losing) this debate here with scripture. Assuming the dilemmas mentioned above were real to me, I can understand why one would wish to believe in annihilation. As I do not see the dilemmas there is no reason for me to think that my understanding of some very straight forward scripture about Hell is flawed. The opposing side sees the dilemmas and therefore insists that not only is our understanding of scripture flawed, but also our views of God, Love, Mercy, and Justice are flawed because we can't see the dilemma. So as I have repeated before several times, this is not just a problem with understanding scripture on Hell. It more properly goes to some very fundamental things that all Christians are suppose to believe about God.And just to get it in again, for the Catholic only, we have the added weight of tradition as evident in ancient writings for support against annihilation, but of course we would never suggest that others should refer to that. It would be pointless to anyone but Catholics to consider what Christians believed thousands of years ago.
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