A question about Cain

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ROS777

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Why did God say that Cain would be avenged 7 fold should anyone harm him?He just murdered his brother and destroyed Able's blood line, why was God merciful to Cain?And the law hadn't been given-but surely people back then knew that murder was wrong?I guess it was because God used Cain and his offspring to test men?So is that it-to test men; whether they would follow God or reject God ?satan is the son of perdition; evil spirits also to test men ( although beleivers have power over the devil and evil spirits)Do you agree, SwampFox?
 

HammerStone

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My personal opinion is that this is one of those things that dives right into the purpose and plan of God. To be honest, I cannot give you a clear-cut definition as to why Cain was given mercy in the way that he was...as you pointed out there was no law of Moses; however, God's word had been used at this point as law as we have seen with the story in Eden. There's nothing in the Bible that says "This is why Cain was preserved ... and then the vengence curse was placed on him because..."The line of Cain is very real and has always been a stumbling block for us as Christians. I think the answer lies somewhere in the free will nature of God and what you said about his line being a test to us. I think this is a part of the divine purpose and until that wonderful day we get to know, it's something we can only speculate about.It's my belief that Cain went on to become quite successful once he was banished and a lot of confusion has arisen from the empire he went on to found. This ties in to God allowing Satan to do what he does as witnessed in Job amongst other places. So, yes, the short answer is that God placed this mark upon Cain for his purpose.
 

pointer

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Why did God say that Cain would be avenged 7 fold should anyone harm him?He just murdered his brother and destroyed Able's blood line, why was God merciful to Cain?
Which of us could stand if God immediately destroyed those disobeyed him? '"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."' Matt 5:21-22 NIVWe are all like Cain; he is the model for everyone insofar as we emulate Cain's hatred for his brother. But we all have God's mercy and protection if, like Cain, we plead for that mercy. God is slow to anger and quick to give his protection, protection that is full and complete, as the word 'seven' signifies.Abel's bloodline is no more important than that of Jesus, or that of any saint; the name 'Abel' means 'breath', or 'vapour', something transitory. We are all capable of being like Abel, too, and indeed we must be, if we are to be like Jesus, suffering for righteousness' sake.
And the law hadn't been given-but surely people back then knew that murder was wrong? I guess it was because God used Cain and his offspring to test men?
God uses every sort of offspring to test men. The Israelites were as sorely tested by their own kind as they were by others- perhaps more.
 

ROS777

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Pointer, I was asking SwampFox but thank you for the answer.I agree that God shows mercy to whoever he wants to, but I was trying to understand why. I realize there was a perfectly good reason for the mercy but it is so much better when one is given a reason then having to take it on faith.My people perish for lack of knowledge; I was trying to understand.Matt 5: 22 reads: " BUT I SAY TO YOU THAT WHOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER***WITHOUT A CAUSE***SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGEMENT..."You left out*** without a cause.*** Important to quote all of God's word; not excluding anything.
 

pointer

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Pointer, I was asking SwampFox but thank you for the answer.
Glad to be of assistance.
I agree that God shows mercy to whoever he wants to
God wants to show mercy to all. He shows mercy to all who call on Him.
Matt 5: 22 reads: " BUT I SAY TO YOU THAT WHOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER***WITHOUT A CAUSE***SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGEMENT..."You left out*** without a cause.*** Important to quote all of God's word; not excluding anything.
Is it important to this issue? I'm sure we have all got angry against another without good cause, and for this reason we all come under divine judgement if without the saving blood of Jesus. Whether those extra words are an interpolation or not is another issue altogether, and many think that they are. They are in any case unnecessary, as we know that righteous anger is permissible and indeed very desirable.
 

ROS777

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Yes, it is important. Jesus is saying it is a sin to be angry without cause, but by the same token; it is not a sin to be angry with a cause. Apostle Paul speaks of anger also.Cain was not repentent. He was grumbling that his punishment was too much.I didn't see that he was sorry at all-just that he got caught.Unless you can show me chapter and verse that he was repenting of his murder.John 8:37 tells of the the first murderer ( that being Cain)...his father is the devil.Abel didn't get a chance, but Jesus's blood line is more important then everyone's blood line everywhere, since his sacrifice is what saves us!!!
 

HammerStone

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Abel's bloodline is no more important than that of Jesus, or that of any saint; the name 'Abel' means 'breath', or 'vapour', something transitory. We are all capable of being like Abel, too, and indeed we must be, if we are to be like Jesus, suffering for righteousness' sake.
Indeed. Name's are very significant in the Bible; something that we have lost site of in our own culture. I almost laugh every time I walk by a store that carries those little plaques that tell you what your name means. That's something that we have lost sight of.In Cain's case; his name meant "possession" which puts quite an interesting spin on things when you read into it. Names are very significant, don't ever miss that.
 

pointer

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Yes, it is important. Jesus is saying it is a sin to be angry without cause, but by the same token; it is not a sin to be angry with a cause.
That is why the extra words are superfluous.
Cain was not repentent. He was grumbling that his punishment was too much.
So do you mean that God gave in to a grumbler? He destroyed most of the Israelites for grumbling.
John 8:37 tells of the the first murderer ( that being Cain)...his father is the devil.
His father was the devil, as he is for anyone who hates his brother. But while we have life, forgiveness is always available. (It's Jn 3:12,btw.)'Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother.' 1 John 3:12 NIV
Abel didn't get a chance, but Jesus's blood line is more important then everyone's blood line everywhere, since his sacrifice is what saves us!!!
Jesus, like Abel, has no descendants by the flesh.'Who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.' Isa 53:8-9 NIV
 

ROS777

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The extra words as you call them are very important.Aside from being scripture which is inspired; quick example: Jesus overturned the moneychanger's table ( or tables) in the temple as well as driving out the animals. He was angry. He had a cause. NO SIN.Those extra words are very important. Jesus was without sin.
 

pointer

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The extra words as you call them are very important.Aside from being scripture which is inspired; quick example: Jesus overturned the moneychanger's table ( or tables) in the temple as well as driving out the animals. He was angry. He had a cause. NO SIN.Those extra words are very important. Jesus was without sin.
Exactly. It is obvious that Jesus did not condemn Himself, meant anger without good cause, and the extra words are superfluous.
 

KarenCharin0

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This is a little off topic but I think it is an interesting point to bring out...... son's of Cain want to be "avenged" 490 times" and sons of God are to "forgive" 490 times. Gen 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
 

pointer

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This is a little off topic but I think it is an interesting point to bring out...... son's of Cain want to be "avenged" 490 times" and sons of God are to "forgive" 490 times. Gen 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Does that mean that, on the 491st occasion, I can beat him up?
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KarenCharin0

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:amen: Yes it does so you better keep track....Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
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ROS777

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Pointer; you said, " So do you mean that God gave in to a grumbler? He destroyed most of the Israelites for grumbling."Answer: just looking at what Cain said; it doesn't sound like he was sorry for killing Able.Gensis 4:9-13. Doesn't sound like he was sorry for killing Able. Can you honestly say it sounds like he is sorry? ( except for getting caught and a hard punishment )Maybe he was sorry later on; I don't know, do you?The Israelites saw miracle after miracle yet still grumbled; the miracles in Egypt in regards to the PASSOVER and the curses to the Egyptians, the parting of the Red Sea, the manna, the water in the desert, the shoes and clothes that didn't give out, the quail, etc., etc. They grumbled even after all that God did for them.
 

pointer

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Pointer; you said, " So do you mean that God gave in to a grumbler? He destroyed most of the Israelites for grumbling."Answer: just looking at what Cain said; it doesn't sound like he was sorry for killing Able.
That isn't the answer. Did God give in to a grumbler? Yes, or no?
 

ROS777

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That isn't the answer. Did God give in to a grumbler? Yes, or no?
I don't believe he gave in to a grumbler, Cain was grumbling that his punishment was too hard after he said ...am I my brother's keeper? I doesn't say he said he was sorry for killing Able or that he was embrassed about getting caught like his parents were when he hid themselves ( and made aprons ) in the garden of Eden. So unless you disagree and can show otherwise , I'd have to say he was grumbling.God didn't " give in " since his punishment wasn't light and he departed from the presence of the Lord. What I was wondering about, which started this topic with my first post, was why was not the death penalty imposed, as in the Old Testament when one murdered another with forethought.As to your previous point, I didn't add extra words, you omited two words and those words, even though there were only two, were exceptionally important.I was quoting scripture word for word, which is important to do, leaving out no words.Such as when a nonbeliever says, " thou shall not judge..." they leave out the last half of the verse. In this case one can be angry with a cause and still not sin. You stated that just being angry with one's brother is a sin and that is not Bibical!
 

pointer

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I don't believe he gave in to a grumbler
Then it's hard to understand why grumbling was brought up at all. Scripture does not say that Cain grumbled, and if one is looking for a reason for God changing His mind, having compassion (which of course He can, and does), one might well (and charitably) say that Cain was genuinely afraid for his life (which of course he did not deserve, but God is merciful). It may have been that God did not concede at all, but merely explained.
What I was wondering about, which started this topic with my first post, was why was not the death penalty imposed, as in the Old Testament when one murdered another with forethought.
That wasn't the problem presented; the issue was whether murder was considered sinful. God does not kill murderers as soon as they commit murder, any more than He kills thieves, adulterers and false witnesses as soon as they offend (though He has done sometimes). There was no reason to pick on Cain, and there was no more mercy shown to Cain that there is to us when we hate another. Indeed, Cain is our model in some respects.The Israelites were commanded to exercise the death penalty for various offences, but there were two reasons for that, as I see it. One was to ensure purity of standards within Israel, as Israel was supposed to be a witness to God's laws to surrounding nations (which they were, sometimes). The other was to show that sin is extremely serious, and that God punishes for sin. Jesus was to make this explicit when warning that sin is much more important that what may happen to the body, but it must have occurred to both Israelite and gentile that the conscience is eternal, and that the God of the Hebrews would hold men to account.
As to your previous point
Answer the post concerned directly, please.
 

evechot

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:study: God it not want anyone to kill Cain. Because Cain suffered more through the guilty feeling of killing his brother. Sometimes we punish our self more than others can.
 

ROS777

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Indeed. Name's are very significant in the Bible; something that we have lost site of in our own culture. I almost laugh every time I walk by a store that carries those little plaques that tell you what your name means. That's something that we have lost sight of.In Cain's case; his name meant "possession" which puts quite an interesting spin on things when you read into it. Names are very significant, don't ever miss that.
I am reading ( skimming right now ) Sargon the Magnificent. Have you read this and if so, what's your thoughts? I ask this because you mentioned that Cain's name means possession and as we know names are quite important in the Bible. Apparently, Cain took his share of possessions in the world. I had said earlier that maybe he did repent eventually. What do you think of that also?
 

ROS777

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:study: God it not want anyone to kill Cain. Because Cain suffered more through the guilty feeling of killing his brother. Sometimes we punish our self more than others can.
Is that your theory? Cain was repentent? Because unless I see documentation, I won't believe. I'm more apt to believe he was not sorry for murdering Able as the authors of the New testament talk of Cain in a desparging way.1John3:12 and Jude 11-----very negative references in the New Testament re: Cain