The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

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bbyrd009

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first, thanks for the response. second the “Two Olive” trees and the “Two Candlesticks.” Zechariah 4:11-14 the TWO anointed Ones. John the baptist was anointed with the Spirit from birth as well as the Lord Jesus. and Two Candlesticks, scripture, John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.John 5:32-35 "There is another that beareth witness of me; (STOP DO WE NEED TO GO ANY FURTHER?) and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: (THERE'S THAT CANDLESTICK) and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light".
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

would seem to dq Jesus as a witness, if He is "the Lord of the whole earth."
 
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101G

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This is a reference to "a time, times, and half a time." 3 1/2 years is "half a time."

But both passages...are riddles.
first thanks for the reply. I note it, but I must disagree, listen why, " they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days". their prophesy is PREACHING. supportive scripture, Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea". now our Lord, Matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people". and after John was in prison, Mark 1:14 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God"

so I must maintain my belief on the 3 1/2 years.

and the sackcloth here is symbolic of repentance. and both preached repentance.
 

101G

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Note that the term “Two Witnesses” is only found in Revelation 11:3 and no where else in Scripture.
PS i don't believe so, Deuteronomy 19:15 "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established".
that's basic bible.
 

101G

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14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

would seem to dq Jesus as a witness, if He is "the Lord of the whole earth."
must teach, Zechariah 4:14 "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". this is the basic of "Diversity". stand by, just like "with", in John 1:1 listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". the G243 allos of himself, or the equal "SHARE" of himself as phil 2:6 makes clear. bbyrd009 "by" now you should know that.......:oops:
 

bbyrd009

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must teach, Zechariah 4:14 "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". this is the basic of "Diversity". stand by, just like "with", in John 1:1 listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". the G243 allos of himself, or the equal "SHARE" of himself as phil 2:6 makes clear. bbyrd009 "by" now you should know that.......:oops:
by now you should know better than to add to Scripture, too, wadr. You misrep the Two in ignorance imo, forgivable enough, but imo you are falling for a trap
 

101G

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@Jun2u, I know sometime when we're taught a certain way, it's difficult to accept a truth that might, notice I said "might" have been taught wrong. I only ask U to examine the evidence.

The Lord Jesus and Moses.

Here are some compiled similarities between the Lord Jesus the Christ and the prophet Moses. then we will look at John and Elijah

1. both have a close relationship with God. Moses a face to face Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a Spiritual Face to face. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2. both were ordained by God to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, the Lord Jesus Spiritual bondage.

3. both Moses and the Lord Jesus were saved from certain death when they were small children, while most other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered.
pharaoh murdered all the baby males in Egypt. and king Herod the same in Israel.

4. both the Lord Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die for the sake of the people of the world. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a roya family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.

5. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".

6. both Moses and the Lord Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation

7. both the Lord Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel, (now the church), and the true God.

8. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were Lawgivers. Moses the carnal Law of Stone. Jesus the Spiritual Law of the heart.

9. both had water connections. Moses, The Nile (water) into blood/red. Jesus, Water into wine/red/symbolic for blood

10. both died, and no man knows where their GRAVE are.

11. both had mother who raised them, and was not their biological mothers. Yes, Mary was not the biological Mother of the Lord Jesus. both had surrogate or faster mothers.

12. both talked to God on mountains tops in one on one communication.

this is just a few, their are many more. By now one should have the understanding of who the two witness are.

NEXT JOHN THE BAPTIST.
Conclusion: the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. The Gospel, and Baptism are still in the earth witnessing even today.
 

101G

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by now you should know better than to add to Scripture, too, wadr. You misrep the Two in ignorance imo, forgivable enough, but imo you are falling for a trap
No adding, but falling into a trap is not trapped. the Lord Jesus is the way out. but thanks for your concerns.
 

bbyrd009

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No adding, but falling into a trap is not trapped. the Lord Jesus is the way out. but thanks for your concerns.
if you ever find that you do not in fact have all the answers, a discussion might actually ensue at some point i guess

i guess that will be taken bad, sorry, i mean no offense
 

ScottA

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first thanks for the reply. I note it, but I must disagree, listen why, " they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days". their prophesy is PREACHING. supportive scripture, Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea". now our Lord, Matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people". and after John was in prison, Mark 1:14 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God"

so I must maintain my belief on the 3 1/2 years.

and the sackcloth here is symbolic of repentance. and both preached repentance.
Consider then:
Daniel 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

...That the cross is the "abomination that makes desolate", that occurs at the "half a time." The other half is of the second witness, in spirit, by the "life-giving spirit" whom is Christ.
 

101G

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if you ever find that you do not in fact have all the answers, a discussion might actually ensue at some point i guess

i guess that will be taken bad, sorry, i mean no offense
never said I have all the answer. an now offense taken or given.
 

101G

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Consider then:
Daniel 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

...That this is the "abomination that makes desolation", that occurs at the "half a time." The other half is of the second witness, in spirit, by the "life-giving spirit" whom is Christ.
consider this, did not our Lord put an end to sacrifice, (for he was it), and the abominations did he not make desolate, the for abomination that makes desolation is those who sit in Moses seat. according to the scriptures he made them desolate. or as Revelation 11:5 said, "fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies", and another word for devour is destroy, and destroy means desolate.

in spirit, by the "life-giving spirit", was he not that LIFE GIVING SPIRIT, supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". did he not fulfilled all those things?.

see, Scott, it's Spiritual.
 

ScottA

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consider this, did not our Lord put an end to sacrifice, (for he was it), and the abominations did he not make desolate, the for abomination that makes desolation is those who sit in Moses seat. according to the scriptures he made them desolate. or as Revelation 11:5 said, "fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies", and another word for devour is destroy, and destroy means desolate.

in spirit, by the "life-giving spirit", was he not that LIFE GIVING SPIRIT, supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". did he not fulfilled all those things?.

see, Scott, it's Spiritual.
Indeed. First the natural (flesh), and then the spiritual: A time, times, and half a time.
 
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101G

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Indeed. First the natural (flesh), and then the spiritual: A time, times, and half a time.
Scott you're on the money. I know we see a few things differently, but if we keep hanging out here together we'll get on one accord... (smile).

peace in brotherly Love.
 
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101G

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THE SECOND WITNESSES
John the Baptist.

Scripture: John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John”. sent “FROM”, not sent “BY” God but “FROM” God, meaning he have authority. Can we confirm this in the scriptures. Matthew 21:23-27 "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things”. to understand what I’m saying here about authority, read Gills commentary (verse 25) for more explanation on the verses.

So, we see by the words of the Lord Jesus, who cannot lie, John have authority from God. That authority was to preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. he was to preach repentance by baptism, not to remit sins, but "FOR" sins, because the blood of Christ do that. so his mission was repentance. And in this repentance, what did it do? Answer, Luke 1:16 "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord”. to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and this is to be done in the spirit of Elijah. Was this prophesied? Yes, Malachi 4:5 & 6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse”. STOP, THIS ALONE GIVE US THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHO JOHN THE BAPTIST IS IN SPIRIT, The Elijah to come. Can we confirm this, yes, Matthew 11:12-14 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come”. now I ask, can the Lord Jesus lie? God forbid, NO, again out of the Mouth of the Lord Jesus. Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”. if the disciple understood it, why not us?. can the Lord Lie? again NO. Must we go on, do we believe the Lord Jesus or men?. now if the Lord said Elias, meaning Elijah is already come, why are you still waiting for him to come?.

The LORD (all caps) said, in Malachi 4:5 & 6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse”. and the Lord Jesus said he came, and it was John the Baptist in the spirit of him, as the prophet Isaiah said, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?”.
 

Jun2u

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@Jun2u, I know sometime when we're taught a certain way, it's difficult to accept a truth that might, notice I said "might" have been taught wrong. I only ask U to examine the evidence.

The Lord Jesus and Moses.

Here are some compiled similarities between the Lord Jesus the Christ and the prophet Moses. then we will look at John and Elijah

1. both have a close relationship with God. Moses a face to face Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a Spiritual Face to face. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2. both were ordained by God to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, the Lord Jesus Spiritual bondage.

3. both Moses and the Lord Jesus were saved from certain death when they were small children, while most other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered.
pharaoh murdered all the baby males in Egypt. and king Herod the same in Israel.

4. both the Lord Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die for the sake of the people of the world. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a roya family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.

5. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".

6. both Moses and the Lord Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation

7. both the Lord Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel, (now the church), and the true God.

8. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were Lawgivers. Moses the carnal Law of Stone. Jesus the Spiritual Law of the heart.

9. both had water connections. Moses, The Nile (water) into blood/red. Jesus, Water into wine/red/symbolic for blood

10. both died, and no man knows where their GRAVE are.

11. both had mother who raised them, and was not their biological mothers. Yes, Mary was not the biological Mother of the Lord Jesus. both had surrogate or faster mothers.

12. both talked to God on mountains tops in one on one communication.

this is just a few, their are many more. By now one should have the understanding of who the two witness are.

NEXT JOHN THE BAPTIST.
Conclusion: the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. The Gospel, and Baptism are still in the earth witnessing even today.


I don’t know how you study the Bible, it is obvious, you and I have different methodology. For me, when I study the scriptures, I look for the Gospel message and spiritual discernment. Is the study of the Two Witnesses have a gospel message or spiritual discernment? Yes, there are! 2 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 2:14, come into mind as we search how else God uses the terms “Olive Trees” and “Candlesticks.”

Deuteronomy 19:15 is NOT basic bible as you claim. In fact, by taking away or adding to the Word carries with it an ominous warning, and what God have in mind is eternal damnation! I say this because you have deliberately omitted the phrase, “or at the mouth of three witnesses” just so you can prove your point. Deuteronomy 19 has a different concept from that of Revelation 11. Deuteronomy speaks about “sin” while Revelation speaks about “title / entity” of a people.

I’m very familiar with the contents of your post #66. In fact, I can sum it up in one sentence. “The reasons there are similarities, it’s because Moses is a type of Christ.” You do know about types and figures, and shadows and realities, right?

You said:
I know sometime when we're taught a certain way, it's difficult to accept a truth that might, notice I said "might" have been taught wrong. I only ask U to examine the evidence.

If you want to know, I follow the method taught by Origin before his disciples changed it four hundred years after his death, and of course, by the Holy Spirit. No, not by hearing an audible voice but by studying the Scriptures.

You asked me to examine the evidence but I have found none except what I’ve already known. Now, I ask once again, in turn, to look into the terms, “the Olive trees” and “the Candlesticks” to get the identity of the Two Witnesses. When you have found the answer to the Two Witnesses, come back, and we’ll reason together. Till then...

To God Be The Glory
 
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101G

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I don’t know how you study the Bible, it is obvious, you and I have different methodology. For me, when I study the scriptures, I look for the Gospel message and spiritual discernment.
Yes, but we must search the OT scriptures also, and here's why, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope".
Is the study of the Two Witnesses have a gospel message or spiritual discernment? Yes, there are! 2 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 2:14, come into mind as we search how else God uses the terms “Olive Trees” and “Candlesticks.”
this is why I said sometime we need to go to the OT. here is my methodology. the Old testament is the New testament "HIDDEN". and the New testament is the Old testament "REVEALED". by knowing the OT prophet of Zechariah, there i understand the terms “Olive Trees” and “Candlesticks” , as well as Revelation. the Oil in Zechariah is the Holy Spirit that anoints the two trees. John and the Lord Jesus, from BIRTH. and notice, the term Candlesticks is not the candle, but the holder, or vessel of the candle or the light.
Deuteronomy 19:15 is NOT basic bible as you claim. In fact, by taking away or adding to the Word carries with it an ominous warning, and what God have in mind is eternal damnation! I say this because you have deliberately omitted the phrase, “or at the mouth of three witnesses” just so you can prove your point. Deuteronomy 19 has a different concept from that of Revelation 11. Deuteronomy speaks about “sin” while Revelation speaks about “title / entity” of a people.
I don't think so, Revelation 11:1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein". se, measure here is not with a tape measure, but the rod of Holiness. but, is not this a matter of judiciary, on sin, and the way people act. Matthew 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established". John 8:17 "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 2 Corinthians 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. and the list goes on.
I’m very familiar with the contents of your post #66. In fact, I can sum it up in one sentence. “The reasons there are similarities, it’s because Moses is a type of Christ.” You do know about types and figures, and shadows and realities, right?
correct, and yes, this is why the symbolism point from Moses to Christ, and Elijah to John, thank you.

If you want to know, I follow the method taught by Origin before his disciples changed it four hundred years after his death, and of course, by the Holy Spirit. No, not by hearing an audible voice but by studying the Scriptures.
(smile), listen, Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions". and Yes God do speak in dreams. do a search of it, and yo'll see.
You asked me to examine the evidence but I have found none except what I’ve already known. Now, I ask once again, in turn, to look into the terms, “the Olive trees” and “the Candlesticks” to get the identity of the Two Witnesses. When you have found the answer to the Two Witnesses, come back, and we’ll reason together. Till then...
I have answered, you read it already.
 

EndTimeWine

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I believe the Two Witnesses are St. John and Enoch. Both saw the end times in its entirety and the Elect. Rev:10:8-11: Then the voice which I had heard from heaven spoke to me again , saying, "Go, take the scroll which is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and the land." So I went to the angel and told him to give me the scroll; and he said to me, "Take it and eat; it will be bitter to your stomach, but sweet as honey in your mouth." And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth; but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. And I was told, "YOU MUST AGAIN PROPHESY ABOUT MANY PEOPLES AND NATIONS AND TONGUE AND KINGDOMS".

Meaning: After this prophecy he received is given to all nations, (REVELATION), he must AGAIN prophesy among= before and amongst people and nations and tongues and kingdoms. The Word of God of course is sweet in utterance , but is bitter to his stomach for the persecution and martyrdom it brings. St john is the only apostle to not experience Martyrdom. John21:21-24, When Peter saw him, he said to Yeshua (Jesus), "Lord, what about this man?" Yeshua said to him , "If it is my will that he remain until I come , what is that to you? Follow Me!" The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Yeshua did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come , what is that to you?"
This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

Meaning: Yeshua never said John would not die but would tarry or remain until he comes. John will experience martyrdom during this time. He will be amongst the end time Elect, The Bride! The Rev.12 sign of Sept.23, 2017 over Israel denotes all these things are at hand. The second Witness is Enoch.
He was taken up to heaven and saw the throne of God in the tenth heaven. He also heard the thunders of God as John did. St. John was told not to write what the seven thunders spoke, Rev.10:4, And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down." That is because this is what John is to prophesy about. We are not told in the Revelation, what the thunders spoke, but we will soon be told and it will be earth shaking! 1st Book of Enoch speaks of Enoch witnessing the place where the lightning and thunder of God are held. Enoch saw the Watchers and the mysteries of heaven, he also saw the chosen Elect of this time and told us what he saw before us and what we will experience during these end days of the end times. These two witnesses will be part of the nourishment time for the Bride.

They will appear on the scene after the first Woe Rev.12:12, this is the casting out of the first heaven of satan. Satan was able to ascend to the gates of heaven and accuse the saints before God! We know at the fall of man satan was cast out of the tenth heaven and fell like lightning from the sky, he took a 1/3 of the heavenly angles with him. He will now not even be able to ascend to the first heaven, (the cosmos) as man calls it! Arch Angel Michael will cast him down. He will now bring a 1/3 of comic bodies with him. This is the first Woe! It will not happen until the sealing of the 144,000, 12,000 0f every tribe of Israel are sealed. The first trumpet will be sounded as well! He will be relegated to the earth only! The seal or signet upon all the tribes is Wisdom who satan rejected. Ezekiel 28:11-19.

When the Witnesses are murdered and resurrected the second Woe will be passed! Rev.11:11-14, But after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, "Come up hither!" And in the site of their foes they went up to heaven in a cloud. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second Woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

Much is at hand! This is what I believe, I would love to here others views and interpretations. Either way, at least we are all seeking, and that in itself is a good thing! So, if you do not agree with me it is not a confrontation let us lift up the Lord, God Bless! What say you???
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the post. it'alway intresying to hear another's point of view. as you said, "this not a confrontation let us lift up the Lord". I concur.
I have a question about you stance that is unclear to me. you said, "This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
Meaning: Yeshua never said John would not die but would tarry or remain until he comes. John will experience martyrdom during this time. He will be amongst the end time Elect, The Bride!".

are you saying that John is now alive, or that the Lord have already returned.
 

EndTimeWine

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the post. it'alway intresying to hear another's point of view. as you said, "this not a confrontation let us lift up the Lord". I concur.
I have a question about you stance that is unclear to me. you said, "This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
Meaning: Yeshua never said John would not die but would tarry or remain until he comes. John will experience martyrdom during this time. He will be amongst the end time Elect, The Bride!".

are you saying that John is now alive, or that the Lord have already returned.

John is now alive!