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jimd

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Is the Church Spirit or physical?

Matthew 16:16-19 KJV
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

Which Church did Saul persecute?
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

The church is Spiritual and built on Peters confession of Spiritual truth "thou art the Christ" but to suggest the church is built on any fallible man shows a severe lack of understanding. Only when speaking Spiritual truth is any man considered to be laying the foundation and we all know no man is infallible except Christ.


1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 

epostle1

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Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

The church is Spiritual and built on Peters confession of Spiritual truth "thou art the Christ" but to suggest the church is built on any fallible man shows a severe lack of understanding. Only when speaking Spiritual truth is any man considered to be laying the foundation and we all know no man is infallible except Christ.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The Church s not built on fallible men and I don't know where that silly notion came from. Men cannot be infallible without Christ so you need a whole lesson on what infallibility means. Jesus builds his Church. Period. You guys think Jesus builds junk that fell apart in later centuries, even though He promised that would never happen. I digress...

Christ's Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all - and, as a consequence, no authority at all - conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It's almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn't quite know what he was doing.

1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.

2. The worldwide councils. Christianity's doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an "invisible" group of bishops meet and deliberate.

3. The Lord's day
. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.

Binding and loosing are visible acts. A purely invisible church can't bind or loose much of anything.
 

BreadOfLife

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well, an African can be a Jew, BoL, so we are having a semantics discussion now i guess
It's been a semantics issue since you rejected the fact the there were Jewish and Gentile Christians in the Early Church.
 

BreadOfLife

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Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

The church is Spiritual and built on Peters confession of Spiritual truth "thou art the Christ" but to suggest the church is built on any fallible man shows a severe lack of understanding. Only when speaking Spiritual truth is any man considered to be laying the foundation and we all know no man is infallible except Christ.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
That last verse refutes everything you said prior to it.

And not ONE of you has been able to answer why Simon was called "Cephas" by Paul in his letters.
Why is he called "Peter"??

The answer is in Matt. 16:18 . . .

You
believe Peter is not the "Rock" Jesus spoke of but that the Rock refers to his confession of faith. It couldn’t be Peter because the Greek words used here are Petros, meaning, small stone and Petra, meaning, large mass of rock. You believe that the Rock is Jesus because he is referred to as "Rock" elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was, “And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because "Cephas" is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for you Anti-Catholics: Petra is a feminine Greek noun and could hardly be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man. Jesus clearly appointed St. Peter as earthly head of the Church and Chief Apostle here in Matthew’s Gospel.

Nowhere does this verse even imply that the "Rock" is Simon's confession.

finally - Abraham is ALSO referred to as the "Rock" in Isaiah 55:1.
So, it is a fallacy that Jesus is the only "Rock" in Scripture.

Your move . . .
 

jimd

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The Church s not built on fallible men and I don't know where that silly notion came from. Men cannot be infallible without Christ so you need a whole lesson on what infallibility means. Jesus builds his Church. Period. You guys think Jesus builds junk that fell apart in later centuries, even though He promised that would never happen. I digress...

Christ's Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all - and, as a consequence, no authority at all - conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It's almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn't quite know what he was doing.

1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.

2. The worldwide councils. Christianity's doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an "invisible" group of bishops meet and deliberate.

3. The Lord's day
. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.

Binding and loosing are visible acts. A purely invisible church can't bind or loose much of anything.
I repeat, no man is infallible except Christ. One only has to look at the history of any church or christian man to know this.
 
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101G

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The Son is God
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

someone ignorantly used this scripture to prove that the son is God. How gross ignorant can one be. if one read the verse. it says a Son is Given, and this Son is called the "Everlasting Father". a Son is the Father. what gross negligence.
 

epostle1

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I repeat, no man is infallible except Christ. One only has to look at the history of any church or christian man to know this.
Because you have this fixed, false understanding of what infallibility means. Most Protestants do, and all sola scripturists just don't get it. I repeat, Men cannot be infallible without Christ. Therefore men with Christ who are commissioned to teach, do so infallibly. It's Jesus who is infallible. It's not rocket science.

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Luke 10:16 – whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 – Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul – Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, (test tube babies) cloning, surrogate mothers, and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 – Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 – Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

Acts 15 The conclusions of the Jerusalem Council were infallible. Was that a one time historical event or a model for future councils?

What year did Jesus allegedly abandon His Church that no one noticed until the middle of a revolt?


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twinc

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The Son is God
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

someone ignorantly used this scripture to prove that the son is God. How gross ignorant can one be. if one read the verse. it says a Son is Given, and this Son is called the "Everlasting Father". a Son is the Father. what gross negligence.

think about it seriously=he who has the son has the father also - twinc
 
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101G

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think about it seriously=he who has the son has the father also - twinc
No, you think, is the Son the "EVERLASTING" Father yes or no.

let me help you out, Revelation 1:8 is this your Father, yes or no?...... (smile)
 

101G

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false thinking get no one no where either.

I can't believe how people stay in a false doctrine after getting caught in it over and over.

it boggle the mind.
 

twinc

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No, you think, is the Son the "EVERLASTING" Father yes or no.

let me help you out, Revelation 1:8 is this your Father, yes or no?...... (smile)
.

yes of course=God is God = like father so also son = divine - twinc
 
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101G

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yes of course=God is God = like father so also son = divine - twinc
ERROR. listen to the truth,
1 Corinthians 10:2-4 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ”. so who is the ROCK?, lets see, Deuteronomy 32:3-4 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he”.

See, the Lord Jesus is the LORD in the OT, he, (the Lord) Jesus is the “Rock”. the God of the OT… (smile).
now one more for your edification to open your Spiritual eyes. did you notice this, "drank of that spiritual Rock". Spiritual,? and this, "a God of truth". a God of truth?, where have we heard this before? John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".

a God of truth, who is the Spiritual ROCK, the Spirit of Truth, "THE HOLY SPIRIT".

man you'll get cut up so bad with the word of truth. it just boggle the mind.

see how easy it is just to learn the truth?.
 

Helen

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The Son is God
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

someone ignorantly used this scripture to prove that the son is God. How gross ignorant can one be. if one read the verse. it says a Son is Given, and this Son is called the "Everlasting Father". a Son is the Father. what gross negligence.

So, then how do 'you' see this scripture? I love this scripture.
Please post in bite sized pieces , so that even I can understand what you are saying . Thanks.
 

twinc

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ERROR. listen to the truth,
1 Corinthians 10:2-4 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ”. so who is the ROCK?, lets see, Deuteronomy 32:3-4 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he”.

See, the Lord Jesus is the LORD in the OT, he, (the Lord) Jesus is the “Rock”. the God of the OT… (smile).
now one more for your edification to open your Spiritual eyes. did you notice this, "drank of that spiritual Rock". Spiritual,? and this, "a God of truth". a God of truth?, where have we heard this before? John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".

a God of truth, who is the Spiritual ROCK, the Spirit of Truth, "THE HOLY SPIRIT".

man you'll get cut up so bad with the word of truth. it just boggle the mind.

see how easy it is just to learn the truth?.

inflated ego could be the problem according to the last sentence - the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive you can and what is more He dwelleth with you - twinc
 
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101G

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BG, thanks for the response. I'll try my best to keep it short. the son is the "offspring" of the Father by "sharing" himself in Flesh (phil 2:6). this is what the Greeks calls G243 allos, a "numerical difference", or differentiation, meaning another of the same sort, 2 Father and Son. but when the kingdom is taken up the Son is assimilated within the Father meaning only "ONE".

see in the OT he was NOT differentiated only (SPIRIT) father. well by coming or sharing himself in flesh this is when we have the differentiation of God or the son, meaning the offspring in flesh, (see John 1:14). now we have 2 of the "SAME" but at the end one of the SAME by assimilation.

hope this help.
 

101G

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inflated ego could be the problem according to the last sentence - the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive you can and what is more He dwelleth with you - twinc
Look this is not for you, so don't sweat it...... (smile). leave it alone.
 

twinc

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So, then how do 'you' see this scripture? I love this scripture.
Please post in bite sized pieces , so that even I can understand what you are saying . Thanks.


even among humans many sons are also fathers and sons are equally human as their fathers - twinc
 
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bbyrd009

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So, then how do 'you' see this scripture? I love this scripture.
Please post in bite sized pieces , so that even I can understand what you are saying . Thanks.
what he is saying is that 3 witnesses against him are insufficient. Basically, if God Himself were to come down and agree with us, that still would not matter to him
 
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