Can you even imagine the huge load guilt and shame ??

Dcopymope · Nov 17, 2017

pia said:
Reading about, let's say the Queen of England in a magazine, with people saying that they heard the queen say this or that, that may turn out to be true, but all we can say is that we read something about the queen,we cannot by any stretch of the imagination say that we know her, nor indeed that we are known by her..........Unlike our precious Jesus.....He didn't come to leave us a 'hearsay' account, He came to restore things between us and our father, so we could receive His precious Holy Spirit and by that get to know Him, in the same way that He knows us.....What do I think it means to know God ? I hope you understand now, what I mean the difference is.....If not, don't fret it, just don't write back......do not like getting caught up in endless, silly plays on words............Either we know someone or we know about someone....

Its not that I don't get it, its just that I don't 100% agree with what you are saying. You believe just receiving the holy spirit means you know him, and I really don't, because I define knowing someone as meeting them face to face much the same way Moses did as he conversed with God for 40 days and nights on mount Sinai, who is with the Lord in heaven right now. No matter how much of the holy spirit you claim to have, that in of itself doesn't mean you will know God any where near as well as Satan himself. Satan truly knows God, because he has seen God in all his glory. Likewise I can say the same for Ezekiel since he saw God sitting on his throne in the form of a vision.

mjrhealth · Nov 17, 2017

Dcopymope said:
Its not that I don't get it, its just that I don't 100% agree with what you are saying. You believe just receiving the holy spirit means you know him, and I really don't, because I define knowing someone as meeting them face to face much the same way Moses did as he conversed with God for 40 days and nights on mount Sinai, who is with the Lord in heaven right now. No matter how much of the holy spirit you claim to have, that in of itself doesn't mean you will know God any where near as well as Satan himself. Satan truly knows God, because he has seen God in all his glory. Likewise I can say the same for Ezekiel since he saw God sitting on his throne in the form of a vision.

I guess you missed it all, when one receives the Holy Spirit, it gives one access to God, IE yes you can stand face to face with God, you can stand with Christ , not just in heaven but here on earth. Remember Jesus after His resurrection.

Joh 21:1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
Joh 21:2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
Joh 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
Joh 21:8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
Joh 21:9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
Joh 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Joh 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
Joh 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
Joh 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

still happens today, to those whom believe, so far not to me, but I have being with Him in heavenly places. Problem is few have the faith, and even less believe.

That is how we know Jesus, because He is our friend and we are His, not our doing all His. And friends spend time with one another.

Act_17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Dcopymope · Nov 17, 2017

mjrhealth said:
I guess you missed it all, when one receives the Holy Spirit, it gives one access to God, IE yes you can stand face to face with God, you can stand with Christ , not just in heaven but here on earth. Remember Jesus after His resurrection.

Joh 21:1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
Joh 21:2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
Joh 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
Joh 21:8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
Joh 21:9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
Joh 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Joh 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
Joh 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
Joh 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

still happens today, to those whom believe, so far not to me, but I have being with Him in heavenly places. Problem is few have the faith, and even less believe.

That is how we know Jesus, because He is our friend and we are His, not our doing all His. And friends spend time with one another.

Act_17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Speaking of the disciples, Paul included, my view on what it means to know him applies to them as well. You see, its so much easier to travel across Jerusalem and the known world boldly preaching the gospel, and raising the dead and healing the sick in Jesus Christs name when you saw Jesus Christ alive and kicking three days later after his death in the flesh and ascend into heaven. This is the point that people miss, it was not just a matter of faith for them, or just receiving the holy spirit, because they KNEW God. If you've seen Jesus, then you've seen the Father, because they are one. There are some that have claimed to have seen him in some way shape or form today but its really not saying much in of itself, because the disciples backed up what they SAW and walked the walk, and talked the talk.

mjrhealth · Nov 17, 2017

Dcopymope said:
If you've seen Jesus, then you've seen the Father, because they are one. There are some that have claimed to have seen him in some way shape or form today but its really not saying much in of itself, because the disciples backed up what they SAW and walked the walk, and talked the talk.

The disciples did as they where told, not running willy nilly doin there own thing than demanding God assist, its not my will but your will be done. and that causes so much abuse from christians.

Dcopymope · Nov 17, 2017

mjrhealth said:
The disciples did as they where told, not running willy nilly doin there own thing than demanding God assist, its not my will but your will be done. and that causes so much abuse from christians.

What does them doing what they were told have to do with anything I said? They carried out the great commission like many Christians today are doing, so what, that doesn't define the difference between truly knowing God and knowing of him.

mjrhealth · Nov 18, 2017

Dcopymope said:
What does them doing what they were told have to do with anything I said? They carried out the great commission like many Christians today are doing, so what, that doesn't define the difference between truly knowing God and knowing of him.

No they didnt go doing the gr4eat commission, they went doing as they whwre told, christians dont have a "great commission" these men certainly though they did.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

children of disobedience, running before God expecting Him to catch up. If Jesus never sent you He is under no obligation to Support you. A Jesus said.

Joh_7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

and

Joh_10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Jesus did as HE was told, to glorify our Father, men do it to boast, that is why faith is not by works.

Dcopymope · Nov 18, 2017

mjrhealth said:
No they didnt go doing the gr4eat commission, they went doing as they whwre told, christians dont have a "great commission" these men certainly though they did.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

children of disobedience, running before God expecting Him to catch up. If Jesus never sent you He is under no obligation to Support you. A Jesus said.

Joh_7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

and

Joh_10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Jesus did as HE was told, to glorify our Father, men do it to boast, that is why faith is not by works.

"Doing as they were told" somehow does not include the great commission?.....................

....................wow, and here I thought I heard it all. Whatever, it means nothing in relation to the definition of knowing God.

mjrhealth · Nov 18, 2017

Dcopymope said:
"Doing as they were told" somehow does not include the great commission?.........................................wow, and here I thought I heard it all. Whatever, it means nothing in relation to the definition of knowing God.

Really, teh disciples knew Jesus and where obedient to Him, when He went the where led by the Spirit, given to them at Pentecost, yet christians read teh bible than start running around willy nilly, not doing Gods will, just doing there own thing. Go right ahead, God wont stop you.

Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

there is no reward for that we do, it is what God expects of us, unprofitable sevants we are.

Dcopymope · Nov 18, 2017

mjrhealth said:
Really, teh disciples knew Jesus

Yep, which is unlike any Christian today, because they saw him with their own two eyes, whether in the spirit or in the flesh, before and after his Resurrection. That's why the church of today can never compare to the early church, the first Christians of Peter and Paul's day, so thanks for proving my point.

mjrhealth · Nov 18, 2017

Dcopymope said:
That's why the church of today can never compare to the early church, the first Christians of Peter and Paul's day, so thanks for proving my point.

Thats because what you see is not His church, what has God got to do with mens religions. His Elcesia is made up of people, many of which you will not find in church because they,

Joh_10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

they cannot and will not follow after men, and as I said, even people today see Him with there own eyes, as you put it, just very few, it is so Hard for Him to find people who will listen. We have all that teh disciples had, some just dont want it. And we do and can know Jesus, but that takes faith which there is so little off in this carnal world.

pia · Nov 18, 2017

Dcopymope said:
Its not that I don't get it, its just that I don't 100% agree with what you are saying. You believe just receiving the holy spirit means you know him, and I really don't, because I define knowing someone as meeting them face to face much the same way Moses did as he conversed with God for 40 days and nights on mount Sinai, who is with the Lord in heaven right now. No matter how much of the holy spirit you claim to have, that in of itself doesn't mean you will know God any where near as well as Satan himself. Satan truly knows God, because he has seen God in all his glory. Likewise I can say the same for Ezekiel since he saw God sitting on his throne in the form of a vision.

Nothing of a sort.......just realized a simpler way to put it, and more correct.......I found out 30 odd years ago, that He is real, so now I know, He is real and by that, then so is my Father..........for the 3 decades after that discovery, I have been getting to know Him more and more..........Do I know everything about Him ? Not by a long shot, actually the more you get to know Him, the more you find, there is a whole lot more yet to come, that we don't know........

Ally.s.j · Nov 19, 2017

Stranger said:
I did answer you. I said, share away. Just don't complain when the arguments heat up.

See (Acts 15:36-41)

Yes, you are wrong to complain of heated arguments when that is to be expected on a forum.

I have always said a forum is no place for a new believer. You must first be grounded in the faith, and in the written Word of God. If you are not, you will encounter much that will cause you to second guess yourself. If you are grounded, then enter into the discussions. But don't be naive and think your positions will be shared by everyone. And don't think you will love your way to agreement.

Stranger

"Share away" Did not answer my question. You are misleading.You did not answer my question. You completely ignored it. I had to go back and read it again. You did not answer my question.
The debates are not the problem. Its the way Christians are acting and not reflecting Christ that is the problem. People saying they are Christians and then acting like the world. Actors are hypocrites. That's what it means, So are we acting as Christians. Or are we Christians. Do we represent Christ or not. Yes we all struggle to walk the same as Jesus. But what we see in most Christian circles. Is Christians that don't care what they act like. As we see in here. So that is why I asked you if you are indeed a Christian. I assumed you were. But I see you never answered that either.
So my first question to you was is it OK for us to be fighting in here the way we do? And I would really like you to show scripture that allows you to do that?
And are you a Christian?

I never complained about heated arguments. They are not going to stand before God. But we will and answer for every word uttered. This is why we must be able to back up what we say in here or on the street with scripture. Christains acting like this is NOT whats to be expected of Christians. That maybe what you think . But its not in scripture. In fact what you are saying is the complete opposite of Christs teachings.
You said. "I have always said a forum is no place for a new believer. You must first be grounded in the faith, and in the written Word of God."
That is not in scripture either. We are supposed to lead the new Christians and disciple them. But you say the opposite again.
Not sure why you think I am a new Christian.
It doesn't matter to me who agrees with me and shares what I say or thinks.
Until someone teaches me something with scripture that I don't understand I will continue to walk in the basics of being called to love one and other.
You said where are we called to love one and other. And you asked me to back it up.

I am struggling to believe you asked this basic of commands. And yet you are in here acting like one who can teach.

How many verses would you like 10 maybe 20?

Theres a bit of work in this I will give the verses You will have to look them up. There are so many it will take you a while. But being as there are so many. If you read them all. Maybe you will come back and agree. I would like to think so. Its always really really good when you get something revealed to you for the first time. I love it. I am sure you will to. Ya ready woohoo here goes.

1 John 13:34
2 John 15:12
3 John 15:17
4 Eph 4:2
5 1Thes 3:12
6 2 Thes 1:3
7 Heb 10:24
8 John 3: 23
9 John 4:7
10 1 John 4:12
11 2 John 1:5
pretty much the whole theme of Christ, His message,His mission,His life, His work, His all really.
So that why I don't understand why you think we have a green light to fight and argue and get into heated debates.
I just don't see it in Christ anywhere.

I might not "love my way to agreement" But I will love. Because that is what He came for. To lay down His life and we are to follow and lay down our lives in love for other. Love doesn't need to win the argument. love doesn't need to be right. Love demands NO rights but to love. And it is possible in Him. Or he would not command it.

Stranger · Nov 19, 2017

Ally.s.j said:
"Share away" Did not answer my question. You are misleading.You did not answer my question. You completely ignored it. I had to go back and read it again. You did not answer my question.
The debates are not the problem. Its the way Christians are acting and not reflecting Christ that is the problem. People saying they are Christians and then acting like the world. Actors are hypocrites. That's what it means, So are we acting as Christians. Or are we Christians. Do we represent Christ or not. Yes we all struggle to walk the same as Jesus. But what we see in most Christian circles. Is Christians that don't care what they act like. As we see in here. So that is why I asked you if you are indeed a Christian. I assumed you were. But I see you never answered that either.
So my first question to you was is it OK for us to be fighting in here the way we do? And I would really like you to show scripture that allows you to do that?
And are you a Christian?

I never complained about heated arguments. They are not going to stand before God. But we will and answer for every word uttered. This is why we must be able to back up what we say in here or on the street with scripture. Christains acting like this is NOT whats to be expected of Christians. That maybe what you think . But its not in scripture. In fact what you are saying is the complete opposite of Christs teachings.
You said. "I have always said a forum is no place for a new believer. You must first be grounded in the faith, and in the written Word of God."
That is not in scripture either. We are supposed to lead the new Christians and disciple them. But you say the opposite again.
Not sure why you think I am a new Christian.
It doesn't matter to me who agrees with me and shares what I say or thinks.
Until someone teaches me something with scripture that I don't understand I will continue to walk in the basics of being called to love one and other.
You said where are we called to love one and other. And you asked me to back it up.

I am struggling to believe you asked this basic of commands. And yet you are in here acting like one who can teach.

How many verses would you like 10 maybe 20?

Theres a bit of work in this I will give the verses You will have to look them up. There are so many it will take you a while. But being as there are so many. If you read them all. Maybe you will come back and agree. I would like to think so. Its always really really good when you get something revealed to you for the first time. I love it. I am sure you will to. Ya ready woohoo here goes.

1 John 13:34
2 John 15:12
3 John 15:17
4 Eph 4:2
5 1Thes 3:12
6 2 Thes 1:3
7 Heb 10:24
8 John 3: 23
9 John 4:7
10 1 John 4:12
11 2 John 1:5
pretty much the whole theme of Christ, His message,His mission,His life, His work, His all really.
So that why I don't understand why you think we have a green light to fight and argue and get into heated debates.
I just don't see it in Christ anywhere.

I might not "love my way to agreement" But I will love. Because that is what He came for. To lay down His life and we are to follow and lay down our lives in love for other. Love doesn't need to win the argument. love doesn't need to be right. Love demands NO rights but to love. And it is possible in Him. Or he would not command it.

Concerning your first question, I already gave you Scripture. Did you not see it?

Concerning your second question, I am not interested in answering.

Nothing wrong with 'love'. Was Christ showing love when He turned over the tables in the temples and ran everyone out with a whip?

You say 'love doesn't need to win the argument', yet here you are trying to win the argument. Did you falter in your 'love'?

Stranger

Ally.s.j · Nov 20, 2017

Stranger said:
Concerning your first question, I already gave you Scripture. Did you not see it?

Concerning your second question, I am not interested in answering.

Nothing wrong with 'love'. Was Christ showing love when He turned over the tables in the temples and ran everyone out with a whip?

You say 'love doesn't need to win the argument', yet here you are trying to win the argument. Did you falter in your 'love'?

Stranger

You are many scriptures short of convincing me you can act the way you are acting. I gave you eleven.
And the scripture you are quoting now is out of context. Was Jesus talking to His brothers. No.
But you are in disobediance in here and all you are doing is twisting every thing you think will help you win and argument addressed at you. Its your self you are fighting with here. Not me. No I see in many of your post that you dont like to answer questions straight.

I am not arguing merly pointing out a fact. You do not nor anyone else supposed to be acting the way you are . Or talking in the manner in which many of you do here or any where else for that matter. But you can all ignore that and do what you like. Its entirely up to you. This is not a debate. But some scripture that you have decided you will not adhere to. Thats up to you. You are trying to say I am arguing here. And we xan all see thats simply not true as you full well know. This is just another part you are twisting. Horrible word twisting. But that is what you are doing. With seemingly no remorse.

And yes I seen you also twisting acts out of context to. Why does one sharp disagreement between them, give you a green light to fight and argue and belittle every day in here? Dont compare what paul was involved in as the same as what you are involved in here. Hardly a comparison. one twisted scripture will not cut through 11 truth scriptures. You are only kidding yourself. I have pointed out truth to you. You dont except it. That as I said is up to you. But its a detriment to your spirit.

Stranger · Nov 20, 2017

Ally.s.j said:
You are many scriptures short of convincing me you can act the way you are acting. I gave you eleven.
And the scripture you are quoting now is out of context. Was Jesus talking to His brothers. No.
But you are in disobediance in here and all you are doing is twisting every thing you think will help you win and argument addressed at you. Its your self you are fighting with here. Not me. No I see in many of your post that you dont like to answer questions straight.

I am not arguing merly pointing out a fact. You do not nor anyone else supposed to be acting the way you are . Or talking in the manner in which many of you do here or any where else for that matter. But you can all ignore that and do what you like. Its entirely up to you. This is not a debate. But some scripture that you have decided you will not adhere to. Thats up to you. You are trying to say I am arguing here. And we xan all see thats simply not true as you full well know. This is just another part you are twisting. Horrible word twisting. But that is what you are doing. With seemingly no remorse.

And yes I seen you also twisting acts out of context to. Why does one sharp disagreement between them, give you a green light to fight and argue and belittle every day in here? Dont compare what paul was involved in as the same as what you are involved in here. Hardly a comparison. one twisted scripture will not cut through 11 truth scriptures. You are only kidding yourself. I have pointed out truth to you. You dont except it. That as I said is up to you. But its a detriment to your spirit.

I am not interested in convincing you. Just giving my side. Oh, I see. I am the one arguing, not you. Ok. But I don't mind arguing.

Not everyone you speak to on Christian forums are Christians either. Was Christ showing love when He overturned the tables? And among believers you will have sharp arguments and debates. (Acts 15:1) "And certain men which taught the brethren,and said,Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them...." (15:5) "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep[ the law of Moses." Was Paul and Barnabas showing love to these believing Pharisees?

(Acts 15:37-39) "...Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren...And Barnabas determined to take with them John,whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him...And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder...." Was Paul and Barnabas showing love to one another?

The bottom line is this. When you come on a forum, expect debate, argument, and hurt feelings. It comes with the territory. I didn't say you had to like it. But you cannot change it. And, as I said before, it isn't for everyone.

Stranger

bbyrd009 · Nov 20, 2017

Dcopymope said:
Satan truly knows God, because he has seen God in all his glory. Likewise I can say the same for Ezekiel since he saw God sitting on his throne in the form of a vision.

hmm

Dcopymope · Nov 20, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
hmm

Yep..........can't truly claim to know a guy you never even personally talked to or so much as seen with your own two eyes. I don't think just having the holy spirit would classify as such. BUT, you may know of him, and this is the difference between today's church and the first Christians that not only had the holy spirit, but is backed up with their own personal eye witness testimony.

bbyrd009 · Nov 20, 2017

Dcopymope said:
Yep..........can't truly claim to know a guy you never even personally talked to or so much as seen with your own two eyes. I don't think just having the holy spirit would classify as such. BUT, you may know of him, and this is the difference between today's church and the first Christians that not only had the holy spirit, but is backed up with their own personal eye witness testimony.

ha but listen to yourself though; "i don't believe this person who is alive, and that i am getting a real personal eyewitness testimony from, but i do believe i am getting a personal, eyewitness testimony from the Apostles and Prophets."

and don't get me wrong, i guess pretty much everyone does this, but there is something wrong with that imo. And i am not meaning to question the validity of Scripture; i am referring to the perspective...parallax. sorry, no better word is coming to me.

Dcopymope · Nov 20, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
ha but listen to yourself though; "i don't believe this person who is alive, and that i am getting a real personal eyewitness testimony from, but i do believe i am getting a personal, eyewitness testimony from the Apostles and Prophets."

and don't get me wrong, i guess pretty much everyone does this, but there is something wrong with that imo. And i am not meaning to question the validity of Scripture; i am referring to the perspective...parallax. sorry, no better word is coming to me.

It would for one depend on your definition of an epiphany. Jesus Christ being the word made flesh makes his birth and Resurrection an epiphany. But does having the holy spirit also count as one? I would say that it would IF it spoke to you, which to me is much more than simply having the feeling of it rushing over you like the sound of rushing wind. And most people who claiming to have any such experience today are often the same kind of buffoons you see on YouTube and the world over, making the faith look like an absolute joke. This is the crux of the matter, when you see the first Christians in the Bible, they back up their experiences with real results, and talked the talk, and walked the walk, but today, you mostly just see people making an absolute fool of themselves and the faith.

bbyrd009 · Nov 20, 2017

Dcopymope said:
This is the crux of the matter, when you see the first Christians in the Bible, they back up their experiences with real results, and talked the talk, and walked the walk,

ah, and when did you see them?

again, don't get me wrong, but those testimonies are from a culture living on the other side of the planet, that spoke a language very at-odds with today's English--i can't even relate how differently than us they think, even today, which is reflected in their language (and even in their writing, which i guess has been observed)--who would likely have been offended at your calling them "Christians," to boot. And we have not even yet considered that we think logically, while Scripture is surely written from a dialectic perspective

and then these testimonies were effectively removed from circulation for several hundred years (read "insulated from critique by contemporaries"), translated 3 or 4 times, and then given to us, principally by interpretation of some logical thinker lol.

imo it is at least worth pondering that those portrayed as walking the walk there in Acts--that little Communist Utopia that most preachers are so reluctant to address?--were begging for money a couple years later, Paul collecting alms for them etc.

Can you even imagine the huge load guilt and shame ??

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