Predestination .

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Morning_Joy

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Jan 26, 2008
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okayI understand sirI have no intention to argue with you; I'm just here for learning. But I know something we both can agree on
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We know that God is good and just in all that He does.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(thesuperjag;34622)
John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
With all due respect, before a student of the Bible assumes that the term “world” means every single human being in the world without exception; one should carefully examine how the term world is used in scripture.The term world has a variety of meanings in scripture. Context matters! There are at least eight (8) different uses of the term world (kosmos in Greek) in scripture. A.W. Pink briefly presents seven (7) of these definitions saying:(Eagle;34711)

Morning_Joy said,I agree with the verses superjag used above.
As far as superjag’s verses they need to be interpreted in context. See my explanation to him in the other post.Eagle what does ALL mean to you? Does ALL means SOME or does ALL means ALL?JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

Eagle

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Feb 7, 2008
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Eagle what does ALL mean to you? Does ALL means SOME or does ALL means ALL?Jag
“All,” as already shown in an earlier post, may have a “limited meaning.” Context is the determinate. What is the context of its use in 2 Peter 3:9?Peter reveals the terms usage by using the word “us-ward,” (3:9) referring to his audience, who are the “beloved” (3:8). This epistle is addressed to “to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:1) and is written to the same “beloved” as his first letter was written to (2 Pet. 3:1), namely, “….to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,” (Pet. 2: 1). that is the, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 2: 2), that is those that have been, ”begotten” …. “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Pet 1:3), etc.In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter desired his Christian readers to realize that the delay of divine judgment was a sign of God’s forbearance and mercy towards them, particularly towards the believers in their midst who had been confused and misled by false teachers (chapter 2). The scope of the word “all” is qualified by the term “us-ward.” God is not willing that any of His elect should perish (John 10:28-29). Besides, if God WILLS the salvation of any individual, that person will be saved (Dan. 4:35). Regeneration is NOT of the will of man. John 1:12-13 states, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God." We receive Christ because we have already been regenerated by God (John 3:1-8) and all this is not connected to, because of, or dependent on our own will. As Romans 9:16 states, "So then it IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." God first gives us a new heart and works in us to make us willing to come to Christ. Philippians 2:13 states, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." God reveals Himself and quickens whom He will. "OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth," "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM," "even so the Son QUICKENETH WHOM HE WILL," "therefore hath he mercy on whom HE WILL have mercy, and whom HE WILL he hardeneth" (Jam. 1:18; Matt. 11:27; John 5:21; Rom. 9:18.) Repentance, as well as saving faith, are both gifts from God, not the fruit of dead, unregenerate, fallen human nature. "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins,” “then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life," and "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is obvious from the Scriptures that God has chosen or elected some to salvation and not others. Even in the writings of Peter we read:
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED. 9 BUT YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; (1 Pet. 2:7-9).
The Arminian point of view regarding 2 Peter 3:9 creates several contradictions. If God is not willing that any should perish, then why does He quicken whom He will, reveal Himself to whom He will, harden whom He will, and appoint some to stumble at the word? If God wishes all to come to repentance, then why does God give repentance and faith to some and not to others? Moreover, this interpretation reveals: (a) a very weak God, who though “not willing that any should perish,” they still do, and (
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displays a very un-sovereign God that cannot save those He is not willing to perish. Many will claim it is because of the ungodly’s unbelief and not because of God’s sovereignty that these perish. They claim that Christ died for “all” equally and “all” have an equal chance at salvation. But if Christ died for all the sins of all men, then He also died for their sin of unbelief and thus according to this unbiblical approach, all men, each and everyone, would have to be saved. This the heresy of universalism. It has been enjoyable discussing these issues with.you. I need to return to work tomorrow ..., so time constraints .... Enjoy. :read:
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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Eagle what does ALL mean to you? Does ALL means SOME or does ALL means ALL?JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
“All,” as already shown in an earlier post, may have a “limited meaning.” Context is the determinate. What is the context of its use in 2 Peter 3:9?Peter reveals the terms usage by using the word “us-ward,” (3:9) referring to his audience, who are the “beloved” (3:8). This epistle is addressed to “to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:1) and is written to the same “beloved” as his first letter was written to (2 Pet. 3:1), namely, “….to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,” (Pet. 2: 1). that is the, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 2: 2), that is those that have been, ”begotten” …. “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Pet 1:3), etc.In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter desired his Christian readers to realize that the delay of divine judgment was a sign of God’s forbearance and mercy towards them, particularly towards the believers in their midst who had been confused and misled by false teachers (chapter 2). The scope of the word “all” is qualified by the term “us-ward.” God is not willing that any of His elect should perish (John 10:28-29).Besides, if God WILLS the salvation of any individual, that person will be saved (Dan. 4:35). Regeneration is NOT of the will of man. John 1:12-13 states, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God." We receive Christ because we have already been regenerated by God (John 3:1-8) and all this is not connected to, because of, or dependent on our own will. As Romans 9:16 states, "So then it IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." God first gives us a new heart and works in us to make us willing to come to Christ. Philippians 2:13 states, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."God reveals Himself and quickens whom He will. "OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth," "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM," "even so the Son QUICKENETH WHOM HE WILL," "therefore hath he mercy on whom HE WILL have mercy, and whom HE WILL he hardeneth" (Jam. 1:18; Matt. 11:27; John 5:21; Rom. 9:18.)Repentance, as well as saving faith, are both gifts from God, not the fruit of dead, unregenerate, fallen human nature. "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins,” “then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life," and "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25).It is obvious from the Scriptures that God has chosen or elected some to salvation and not others. Even in the writings of Peter we read:John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved....Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mark 2:17 - When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.THREE. Denotes completeness, as three lines complete a plane figure. Hence, three is significant of Divine perfection and completeness. The third day completes the fundamentals of creation-work. The fourth, fifth, and sixth days are the counterpart and repetition of the first, second, and third, and correspond respectively. (See the structure of Gen. 1, p. 3.) The number, three, includes resurrection also; for on the third day the earth rose up out of the deep, and the fruit rose up out of the earth....II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance....John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world....If Christ didn't die for all humankind, then the death of Christ is in vain. It is just a shame for people to believe the Word of God is in vain...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 
Nov 8, 2007
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I do believe in Predestination, not the way the Calvanist view it. But I believe in a predestined Elect or Bride of Christ. Just because Yeshua HaMashiach died for the whole world, DOES NOT MEAN that ALL ARE GOING TO BE SAVED. I do believe in predestination, why else would the lamb be slain before the foundation of the world, and how else did God know Jeremiah before the Foundation of the World? He was a predestined Prophet/Leader.
 

biblicalthought

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Feb 6, 2008
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Electing some doesn't necessarily imply God elected others to hell. Being "saved" is just that. We were all on our way to hell and God didn't "have" to save any of us. Even if He saved just one it would have been amazing grace. Election simply states that while all were on their merry ways to hell, God did the saving by choosing according to the pleasure of His own will, whom He would save. Yes, because of His omniscience, He also knew whom He wouldn't save. But what's the big deal? The Bible is totally clear that Jesus did not die for everyone and that there are some that never had a chance. Take Judas for example. Did Jesus pay for Judas' sin? Could Judas have not betrayed Christ?Obviously, the answer is - no, and no.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Jan 17, 2008
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If a third party offers to a pay a debt I owe to another, it is still my choice to accept it as a gift or not. I can refuse it. When the third party is working with my debtor to help save me and my debtor agrees to accept payment on the condition that I accept the third party's gift, then this is another matter.As to Judas, only if we concede that Judas was not free to choose (and therefore blameless for the act) can we agree. God gave men, including Judas a free-will and clearly God holds Judas responsible for what he did.