Born again requirement ?

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twinc

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It's not about "mouthing words".
It's about accepting or rejecting Christ.

Islam rejects Jesus as the Savior of the world.


even neater than that - Islam accepts Jesus but is anti Christ imho - twinc
 

amadeus

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It's not about "mouthing words".
It's about accepting or rejecting Christ.

Islam rejects Jesus as the Savior of the world.
I was not talking about any group of men of flesh as a whole or what any such group be they labeled as Christian or Catholic or Islamic or Mormon or JW or other. No one person can join God and His Son by going through any group's rituals or prescribed pathway and never connecting directly with God. This is not the law as God gave it to Moses.

Perhaps you have in your heart accepted Christ, but neither you nor I can know what someone more ignorant than us in the scriptures has or has not done which God has understood. This can only be known by God, which is why the final judgment regarding people is not ours to make.
 

Helen

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Okey, thank you, i better stay away from this conversation. But i somehow think that this actually is not a Christian forum, comparing to other Christian forums.

Welcome to the Site.

Please do not judge whole Site or it members on just this one Thread...there are many good none-argumentative members on this site...not all of us enjoy arguing in circles, which is mostly what happens on the Catholic V Protestant threads....of which there are far too many!!! :rolleyes:
 
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BreadOfLife

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I was not talking about any group of men of flesh as a whole or what any such group be they labeled as Christian or Catholic or Islamic or Mormon or JW or other. No one person can join God and His Son by going through any group's rituals or prescribed pathway and never connecting directly with God. This is not the law as God gave it to Moses.

Perhaps you have in your heart accepted Christ, but neither you nor I can know what someone more ignorant than us in the scriptures has or has not done which God has understood. This can only be known by God, which is why the final judgment regarding people is not ours to make.
And if you had bothered to actually read my posts - I already said that it is not up to us to condemn a person's soul. That's God's call.
However, Baptism IS required (Mark 16:16, John 3:5) - and one cannot hope to have eternal life if he rejects Christ (Luke 10:16). We're NOT talking about invincible ignorance here - but rejection.
 

BreadOfLife

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Welcome to the Site.

Please do not judge whole Site or it members on just this one Thread...there are many good none-argumentative members on this site...not all of us enjoy arguing in circles, which is mostly what happens on the Catholic V Protestant threads....of which there are far too many!!!
I would like to qualify that assessment.
It's not Catholic vs. Protestant. It's anti-Catholic lies vs. Catholics.

Not all Protestants are anti-Catholics. There are some on this forum who realize that ALL Christians have a kinship in Christ - albeit separated.
 

epostle1

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As Christians, we need to know water doesn't take sins away, water doesn't save, faith does but a water baptism can help show us, as a symbol, that we are new creations.
Ezek. 36:25-27 – the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

Matt. 28:19-20 – Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Mark 16:16 – Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 – unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 – if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 2:38 – Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 – there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

A water baptism is important for those who do not quite understand that it is only the blood of Jesus that cleanses us and He has done what pleases God in our place and to undergo a water baptism is a way for us to grasp what a resurrected life means and it is a way for us to show our desire to please God.

The error here is the way in which the Blood of Christ is emphasized over and over again without there ever being a linking to the efficacy of grace.
It is St. Paul who wrote, when we are baptized we die to Christ. That is we go down into the water just as Jesus went down to the tomb, and all previous sin is washed away.
This is how the Blood of Christ works for our salvation. Just as Christ arose from the dead, we arise again as a new creature who has been born again of water and of the Spirit.
It is not water that cleanses sins. It is through the grace of God which is received through the Sacrament of Baptism that cleanses our sins.

We renew our Baptismal promises on the following occasions:
1) when we received the Sacrament of Confirmation;
2)At the Easter Vigil and on Easter Sunday service;
3) When we attend the Baptism of friends and relatives.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Matthew 28:19, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

What is a born again requirement? To be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and to do so, water is not used as a way of believing the Trinitarian view, scriptures are. Jesus forgives sin, God does too. Jesus receives worship, so does God. Jesus is good and Jesus said only God is good. Jesus is King of Kings, so is God, etc. Is someone truly born again without knowing Jesus is God?
We are born again with water and the spirit, not scriptures.

John 3:3, Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5:
(1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us.
(2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing.
(3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

John 7:38, Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
That does not negate the requirement for baptism. Just because something is absent from a verse does not mean it is non-existent.
 

mjrhealth

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That does not negate the requirement for baptism. Just because something is absent from a verse does not mean it is non-existent.
So are you going to be the one to stand before God and demand He throws all those people out of heaven because according to you they have to be baptized, this is one reason why it says,

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

which is all the religious people of this word do, than one day, they wil lstand before Jesus and say to Him, " why cant we come in" and all He could say is, "because you will not let anyone else in".
 
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amadeus

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And if you had bothered to actually read my posts - I already said that it is not up to us to condemn a person's soul. That's God's call.
However, Baptism IS required (Mark 16:16, John 3:5) - and one cannot hope to have eternal life if he rejects Christ (Luke 10:16). We're NOT talking about invincible ignorance here - but rejection.
Oh I did read yours, but while you may have read mine, I am certain that you did not understand all that I wrote. I am praying for you and yours.

Give God the glory!
 

bbyrd009

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Yes, they accept Him only as a prophet - but reject His role as Savior.
even neater than that - Islam accepts Jesus but is anti Christ imho - twinc
yes, and i will def be taking the word of Nehushtan worshippers for this lol. You girls had your chance to witness against Muslims and you were silent, but now you wanna parrot the party line. See what you will see ok. Judge others' servants to your hearts' content alright, i can freely declare you both hypocrites when you do. I have the evidence in my hand, right now.
 

Helen

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I would like to qualify that assessment.
It's not Catholic vs. Protestant. It's anti-Catholic lies vs. Catholics.

Not all Protestants are anti-Catholics. There are some on this forum who realize that ALL Christians have a kinship in Christ - albeit separated.

Sorry, you are obviously correct.
I don't mind discussing the differences in our beliefs , but it does get nasty and obviously on both sides of the argument.

I as you know, do still believe that we must be family because even though very differently, we do worship the same TRUE God. Therefore Catholics are my friends not my enemies. When the chips are down...and as fast as things are moving right now, it wont be long...before we find ourselves standing shoulder to shoulder against the common enemy of our faith.
We will in time...not too long hence...be called to die side by side for what and in Whom we believe.
.......Helen
 

BreadOfLife

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Sorry, you are obviously correct.
I don't mind discussing the differences in our beliefs , but it does get nasty and obviously on both sides of the argument.

I as you know, do still believe that we must be family because even though very differently, we do worship the same TRUE God. Therefore Catholics are my friends not my enemies. When the chips are down...and as fast as things are moving right now, it wont be long...before we find ourselves standing shoulder to shoulder against the common enemy of our faith.
We will in time...not too long hence...be called to die side by side for what and in Whom we believe.
.......Helen
Amen.
 
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BreadOfLife

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yes, and i will def be taking the word of Nehushtan worshippers for this lol. You girls had your chance to witness against Muslims and you were silent, but now you wanna parrot the party line. See what you will see ok. Judge others' servants to your hearts' content alright, i can freely declare you both hypocrites when you do. I have the evidence in my hand, right now.
And what evidence is that?
All you have are aberrant beliefs that don't have a whole lot to do with Christianity . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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i'll take that over a big doughnut where my opp to actually witness the fruit and put my money where my mouth is should be, ty.
Translation:
"I don't have any "evidence". Just another situation where I stuck my foot in my mouth."
 

twinc

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I was not talking about any group of men of flesh as a whole or what any such group be they labeled as Christian or Catholic or Islamic or Mormon or JW or other. No one person can join God and His Son by going through any group's rituals or prescribed pathway and never connecting directly with God. This is not the law as God gave it to Moses.

Perhaps you have in your heart accepted Christ, but neither you nor I can know what someone more ignorant than us in the scriptures has or has not done which God has understood. This can only be known by God, which is why the final judgment regarding people is not ours to make.

exactly = not ours to make = that is why we have the Church to separate the heretics and devils from the saints - twinc
 

mjrhealth

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exactly = not ours to make = that is why we have the Church to separate the heretics and devils from the saints - twinc
God knows who the heretics and devils are. and most of them you will find in church, as for saints, Jesus seems to have no problem finding people in church, just cant seem to find anyone willing to follow after Him, but such is teh trouble that religion has caused God
 

twinc

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God knows who the heretics and devils are. and most of them you will find in church, as for saints, Jesus seems to have no problem finding people in church, just cant seem to find anyone willing to follow after Him, but such is teh trouble that religion has caused God


a good cop out - here religion and elsewhere the Holy Spirit gets the blame and not human devils claiming inspiration, guidance and indwelling etc - twinc
 

twinc

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a good cop out - here religion and elsewhere the Holy Spirit gets the blame and not human devils claiming inspiration, guidance and indwelling etc - twinc


not just that but attributing the resultant unsavoury fruits to this claimed inspiration and guidance by the Holy Spirit = this is unforgiveable blasphemy imho - twinc
 

Marymog

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is water and Spirit = not Spirit alone or water alone or even Spirit and water - twinc
Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water AND Spirit.
IHS....Mary