I need help. This one wont let me go.

Are we to ignore Mary completely? Can we say we love Jesus, but He should not care if we totally ignore His Mother?What does Luke mean that he records Mary saying that "all" would call her blessed? Are we not part of "all"? How do we call Mary "blessed"?Would saying she is nothing more than a random vessel to be used and then discarded by God be considered calling her "blessed"?Is putting her in the manger next to sheep, cattle, three wise men and shepherds considered calling her "blessed"? If so then how then is she being represented as anymore blessed than the shepherd, wise man or a sheep?Is there any meaning applicable to us in Jesus giving His Mother to John, a believer and His calling John Her son? Certainly He would want His Mother cared for after His death. Bu why say it like He did and not have that meaningful directly to each of us?Is there really nothing to be said by us to the first person to say 'yes' to Jesus? No thanks from us to the first to say 'yes' to God's plan to restore the human race? And as such the person who, by her yes, made it possible for us to say 'yes'? Do we honor that at all and if so, how?Am not suggesting that all Christians must accept the Catholic devotions to the Mother of God. If you did, you would be more Catholic. Being Catholic means we do these things and have reasons for what we do. You all have reasons for not being Catholic and that is fine. Be the best Christian you can be, no one is asking you to accept or convert to Catholicism.Am just suggesting the answers to these questions do not warrant some of the responses and attitudes towards our practice of honoring the Mother God, no matter what that from takes (within reason of course).

Thats the point she is no more blessed than moses,Abraham or anyone else John the Baptist received more praise in scripture and history than Mary ever did she was just a an upright virgin Vessel thats it she is no more nor less than anyone else of fame in scriptureShe should get no less reverance than the rest but no more either. She was blessed to be part of Gods miracle it was not her miracle she didnt perform it. So why is that any more than others who were parts of Gods miracles?

how many others does scripture say we will all call blessed?

Romans 1:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

DrBubbaLove;34414]Mary being the Way is not the point or aim of a Marian devotion. Having a statue of Mary, even on a pedestal in a room or area devoted to prayer is hardly in itself blasphemy. Nor would be kneeling in prayer in front of such things. Most Catholics that have such an area in their homes and the areas devoted to prayer in our Parish are always centered on Christ. Mary is there, sure but the center is Jesus, God. Won't deny that some might have large Marian altars in their homes with candles everywhere, the works..., but willing to bet there is a Corpus there too in most cases. Also do not deny that abuses happen.
The first commandment is broken which breaks the first commandment of Christs. Exodus 20:4 (King James Version) 4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.No statues of anything not Jesus, not mary not saints nothing in heaven and certainly nothing in the earth. It is worse than blasphemy it is total disobedience of what God has told us. If I was a minister I would be throwing all such things out of the church.The bin is the best place for these icons.
There may be areas specifically set up for or even permanently set up for Marian devotions in a Parish, but as these are prayers and activities pointed to God it hardly follows that such things represent blasphemy. And the main areas for private devotions are still Christ centered. The Hail Mary itself is primarily reciting scripture. The main Marion devotion of praying the rosary, is a call to remember and meditate on specific events in JESUS life (not Mary's).
But MARY is no longer here,she cannot hear your prayers in that she is not omnipresent only God is. We see God requires true worshippers to worship him in Spirit and truth. John 4:22-24. And therefore those who build such things and pray such prayers are not doing so in truth.For God says through Christ that he is the only way. Anyone thinking differently is deluding themselves.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
She also says My soul doth magnify the Lord and my Spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour. Mary unlike Christ, needed a saviour and says God is her saviour as he is ours.
Scripture says ALL would call blessed. As a former Baptist can say I often wondered how and in what way I or my Church honored Mary according to that verse. Remembering her maybe once a year at Christmas and then primarily as a backdrop hardly seemed to me to be in keeping with Luke's writing. Just saying she was special ONLY in that God randomly picked her, could have picked any virgin, hardly seemed to be calling her blessed either. Maybe that is just me, but can remember giving this verse some thought.
The Old Testament does not say she will be blessed. Her own words said, " Form henceforth all generations shall call her blessed. She was blessed only because of the child she bore. Luke 1:35 (King James Version)35.And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. She gave birth to the saviour of the world.Christ was the Holy one of God. And even in that time Jesus said, John the baptist was the greatest one alive as far as Christ was concerned. So perhaps the order is those who are first now will be last then.So clearly christianity is like our Lord, serving not being served. Because he came as a lowly person and did not esteem himself or raise himself up to be above anyone else. I believe true faith acts as Christ did.Faithful

(Faithful;34487)
The first commandment is broken which breaks the first commandment of Christs. Exodus 20:4 (King James Version) 4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.No statues of anything not Jesus, not mary not saints nothing in heaven and certainly nothing in the earth. It is worse than blasphemy it is total disobedience of what God has told us. If I was a minister I would be throwing all such things out of the church.The bin is the best place for these icons.
Exd 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. Obviously not all statues of things are forbidden. Something must be said for what the statue represents and what it is used for. We should not dwell on this as it was not the point of the OP. Start another thread on Idols if you wish.
But MARY is no longer here,she cannot hear your prayers in that she is not omnipresent only God is. We see God requires true worshippers to worship him in Spirit and truth. John 4:22-24. And therefore those who build such things and pray such prayers are not doing so in truth.For God says through Christ that he is the only way. Anyone thinking differently is deluding themselves.
The question was not whether or not Mary can hear us. Rev speaks to saints and our prayers, but start another thread if you wish to discuss that. And since our asking Mary to pray for us is not worshipping Mary, am not sure why you bring that up here.Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. The question was how does one fullfill this verse today?
She also says My soul doth magnify the Lord and my Spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour. Mary unlike Christ, needed a saviour and says God is her saviour as he is ours.
Yes, everything written about Mary's life in scripture indicates she points to Jesus, Her Son and God.Of course Mary needs Jesus, did you not read where my post said she is the first Christian to say yes to Him? All saints must say yes to the Word of God. That is how some of those who died before Him were able to rise with Him. They each said yes to Him in their own lifetime.
The Old Testament does not say she will be blessed.
No one said it did, but clearly the NT does and that ALL would call Her Blessed.
Her own words said, " Form henceforth all generations shall call her blessed. She was blessed only because of the child she bore
Am not sure how that conclusion comes from the text.Three things are said by the angel about Mary and her relationship with God, something that up until that time, no other living human had three things said about their relationship with God. Two that ascended straight to Heaven had one thing said about their relationship - (Enoch -"walked with God" and Elijah- "a man of God")Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women."Highly favoured" is also translated "Full of Grace", but even if we do not go there, it does not appear to be a simple result of random lottery by God. Am no scholar but am told that in the original Greek the words here are in a tense that implies a qualtity/characteristic that she already had (prior to this moment) and that she would retain (into the future)."Lord is with Thee"- had we translated the first part "Full of Grace" this perhaps has more meaning. But to simply say, well the Lord is with all of us renders the point of having the angel say it and Luke record it meaningless. It must indicate something special about Mary - and something along the lines of saying "walked with God" or "a man of God"."blessed art thou among women" - there is that darn blessed thing again. Are we really to say this is just the angel saying how lucky Mary is, you have won a cosmic lottery, God randomly picks you. God forbid! Again it must indicate a status with God she already has (past tense in this verse) and the angel recognizes it.Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. Again past tense, she already has this status with God.
Luke 1:35 (King James Version)35.And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. She gave birth to the saviour of the world.Christ was the Holy one of God. And even in that time Jesus said, John the baptist was the greatest one alive as far as Christ was concerned. So perhaps the order is those who are first now will be last then.
As John is another Saint, am not sure what the point is here. Are you saying John is greater than Mary, therefore we do not need to call her blessed as Luke says we should?
So clearly christianity is like our Lord, serving not being served. Because he came as a lowly person and did not esteem himself or raise himself up to be above anyone else. I believe true faith acts as Christ did.
Cannot disagree with you here, but what is your point. Mary did not attempt to raise hereself up, she is shown as very humble before the angel of the Lord. Her life points (a service) to her Son. The devotions to Mary point to Her Son. Is the point that we should not think too highly of the Mother of God? How low should we think of her then? And if we are to think lowly of the Mother of God, how is that calling Her Blessed? How low would Jesus think of His Mother and still be considered honoring Her?

(thesuperjag;34477)
Romans 1:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Ok fine. Even if one believes this verse applies to Mary, are you suggesting it somehow relieves you from the obligation of calling her blessed?

(kriss;34451)
Thats the point she is no more blessed than moses,Abraham or anyone else John the Baptist received more praise in scripture and history than Mary ever did she was just a an upright virgin Vessel thats it she is no more nor less than anyone else of fame in scriptureShe should get no less reverance than the rest but no more either. She was blessed to be part of Gods miracle it was not her miracle she didnt perform it. So why is that any more than others who were parts of Gods miracles?
Where in the Bible does it say John (or anyone besides Jesus and Mary) that all generations from that time on should DO something toward John?Where in the Bible does it say Mary can now be disregarded as a now empty "Vessel" superceding the earlier verse that we should all call her blessed?Mary is Full of Grace (highly favored), the Lord is with her and she is blessed compared to ALL women. Where in the Bible does anyone besides Jesus get three specific and seperate things said about thier relationship with God?

(DrBubbaLove;34503)
Where in the Bible does it say John (or anyone besides Jesus and Mary) that all generations from that time on should DO something toward John?Where in the Bible does it say Mary can now be disregarded as a now empty "Vessel" superceding the earlier verse that we should all call her blessed?Mary is Full of Grace (highly favored), the Lord is with her and she is blessed compared to ALL women. Where in the Bible does anyone besides Jesus get three specific and seperate things said about thier relationship with God?
I didnt say it said to worship John I just said there is more scripture saying how Holy he was than there is about MaryAnd I never said she should be disreguarded I said she should receive no more nor less reverance than Moses or Enoch or anyone else in scripture Mose's gave us the Law Enoch walked with God Abraham was the father of many nations, Mary was no better or worse than these. The miracle was Christ and his dying on the Cross for us If you take your veiw that Mary deserves some kind of worship becauseher body was used to bring about Gods miracle then why wouldnt you have to put Judas or the Romans on the same level after all they killed him and it was his death that brought us salvation? I realize that is stupid but so is worshiping Mary It was God not Mary that gave us the Son.

(Red_Letters88;34306)
So,I was talking to a fellow Christian, in a chat room. I asked some of these Catholics where the bible ever supports the ascension of Mary.----So 1 certain member PM'd me to discuss this matter out of general chat.Thats where this got interesting. Not only did he attempt to dodge the question directly, but then tried to slap scripture back to back to make a point I was never really informed on.----He then continued to show how the ark of the covenant was the dwelling place of the I AM, which I truly believe.--------Then from using scripture in Samuel, Genesis, and Revelations, tried to prove that Mary is the NEW ARK. He explained how the woman and the dragon in revelations was the dwelling place of Christ- twisting these scriptures to say that Mary the New Ark which Jesus dwelt in.I say putting Mary up on the same notch as the Ark of the Covenant (which the I AM dwelt in) And Mary (the ark which Christ dwelt in) is a very sketchy idea. And a long stretch to make scripture prove your point.I found thishttp://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.htmlWhich represents my way of thinking.I strongly believe the purpose of the Ark was the dwelling place of God, and the ONLY place men could go to make attonement for the peoples' sin.Then we see that Christs' death caused the veil to be torn- significance?- I say because HE MADE IT A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.The other guy claimed nothing is written of a personal relationship---Just as I say nothing REALLy claims Mary is the NEW COVENANT.Why would we even NEED a new covenent- Jesus fufilled these things.Im not looking for answers- Perhaps just scripture that you are aware of to help me with this struggling topic in my head.Thanks
Red_letter88I just wanted to mention that I have always understood the veil being rent from top to bottom to represent that it was God from heaven (the top) that rent the veil of the holy of holies to open salvation to all To say that was making a personal relationship I dont think is quite right God always had /wanted personal relationships. This would have been nothing new What was new was that Salvation had been opened to all. how he relates this to Mary being a new ark is beyond me.I did find one explation to this verese below but it pretty much says what I have already saidMark 15:38 "And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."This was the sacrifice hour, the ninth hour of the day when the chief priest would go into the holy of holies and make sacrifice for the sins of the people. It was a forbidden place for the people to enter and look upon, and now with this veil of the Temple rent in two, the people now had access to look into and approach the very throne of God. This was the daily oblation or sacrifice that offered a lamb, and now here the Lamb of God was offered for one and all times for all those that by faith would believe on Christ, and repent to the Father in "Jesus name". Jesus name became our credentials to approach the throne of God in repentance, and the blood of Christ made it all possible. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for one and all times.Do you know what was meant in the term "the veil was rent in twain"? The Holy of holies was covered by the law, and it stated that one time each year, one individual, the High Priest, could penetrate the holy of Holies. That means that he could go into the presence of God Himself. That veil was very think and it was not a small thing that this curtain was rent in two from the top to the bottom. This meant that it was a divine supplication, letting us know that it was God that did it.Now in Christ even you and I can go in and approach the throne of God. Even though you are a sinner, God loved you enough that He paid the price allows that barrier to be removed. It was an awesome price that Christ paid, and that is why when you say, salvation is fee, it is only free because the price has already been paid. Now you can come to the Father at any time and say, Father, I love you. That pleases Him, and with His love for you, come His blessings for you. You now have the right to say directly to Him, Help me Lord, I am a poor sinner." and He will.

(Red_Letters88;34543)
DrBubba,From the little ive read of your responses, I'm guessing you're a catholic, correct?As a Protestant I dont deny the fact that this woman was blessed and found favor in the Lords eyes.The ONLY things that I feel the catholic church does wrong (when speaking of Mary) is not only is SHE the focus in the church (with liitle ol' baby Jesus), but then Catholics pray through her to get to Jesus- like you would go to your mom if your dad denied you of something.As for me, the words of Christ are plenty- "no way to the father but through me," and "ask for things through my name and it will be given to you"I dont deny this woman her role and significance, but she's a HUMAN, whos most likely to be in the ground till Christ returns, like the rest of us will be.
Yes converted a few years ago.If you have ever been Catholic, attended a Catholic Mass or had a Catholic explain the above to you, then you were either very mistaken, misunderstood or were misled about a Catholic Mass.The altar at the center of every Catholic Parish represents Christ, not Mary. The Cross at the center, behind the altar of most Parishes has Christ hanging on it, not Mary. The Resurrected depicted in all Parishes are all Jesus, not Mary.The entire Mass is centered on Christ, not Mary. We eat the Body and drink the Blood of Jesus at every Mass. (and not Mary). We go to Mass to renew our spirits by taking Jesus inside us (not Mary). Every prayer of a normal Mass is to Jesus, to God not Mary.Most Parishes will have statues of the Mother of God, the Holy Family, and other Saints, but these are not the center or focus of Mass.Praying to Mary??? Even the Hail Mary, which is not part of a normal Mass, is a quote of scripture and a request that she pray for us. Again, quoting scripture and asking Her to pray for us.Marion Devotions, including the Hail Mary are not done as part of a Mass. Most Parishes have one if not several Masses every day (24/7-365), go and see for yourself if you do not believe me.Marion devotions are special and usually private (individual) devotions. In the US most Parishes might have a special first Friday devotion where you may find some people praying the Rosary (Primarily 10 Hail Mary's and One Our Father repeated). Yet even there the focus is Jesus. His Body will be exposed on the altar during that service. They go to pray to God and meditate on Jesus, saying the Rosary might (or might not) be a part of that. In fact, if done properly, each decade (10 Hail Mary's) of the Rosary is suppose to be focus on a part of Jesus life and ministry.So the idea that Catholics focus on Mary instead of God is just absurd and generally either ignorance of or a misunderstanding of our practices.

Catholics are basically alright, but they let themselves be diverted from Jesus by praying to his dead human mum and to dead human 'saints' instead, which is jest a whisker away from spiritism which the Bible condemns.I bet Satan is chuckling because their grasp on Jesus - and on him alone - is therefore weakened.."There is no other name under heaven that can save us" (Acts 4:12) "There is one mediator between God and men,- the man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5) "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus,the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2)

The scriptures state that Mary, the mother of Jesus is greatly blessed among women. As wonderful as she is, she never has been nor ever will be a mediator between God and man. In this life she never took or claimed any other honors or glory to herself other than what the scriptures clearly identify.To claim otherwise is false doctrine or putting it another way “the doctrines of men”.Christ said in John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Paul clearly taught in 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” Paul further taught in Hebrews 9:15-17 “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” We observe from the above that he is not only the mediator of the new testament, but that very importantly his testament was brought into full force only after his death.Jesus was and is and forever will be the only mediator of the new covenant or mediator between God and man. No other man or woman can atone for our sins, no other man or woman can redeem us from the effects of the fall. Virtually no one else has the power to be the mediator between God and man, save Jesus Christ only. He stands unique as the propitiation for our sins, as the foreordained savior and redeemer who verily was foreordained to this very mission before the foundations of this world were laid. We were also chosen by him even before the foundations of this world were laid: Ephesians 1:4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”Peter also clearly testifies of this doctrine: 1 Peter 1:20 “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”Consider what John the beloved states in Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The atonement required a “sinless” sacrifice. None but Jesus has ever met that criteria. That honor and power and right to stand as “the mediator between God and man” is reserved to him and him alone who paid the price in the garden and upon the cross for us! If your friend has ears to hear and a heart to know sound doctrine, then all of the above should become obvious.

Dr.BubbaLove, I have to comment on how well you have discussed this topic. You have stayed very even-toned. You have been patient and have stayed with the topic, without insulting anyone else's beliefs. It is difficult to remain calm and gracious, controlled by the Holy Spirit when you feel that you are under attack, but should an on-looker view this thread, I think they would like your demeanor, though they may not agree with your theology. You have shed some light on Catholicism for me. There are things that I don't understand about that religion. People tend to make "blanket statements" about the religion without really knowing completely what they're talking about. I can't say that I agree with everything that they do. I do have somewhat of a problem with the Mary statues; really any statues bother me, I guess. I might would be all right with a Jesus statue as long as it isn't the statue itself that's being overly reverenced. I also don't like the phrase, "Mother of God" because God didn't have a mother. He is the supreme, all-powerful creator of everything. I know what's meant by it, but it bugs me for some reason. Mother of Christ is one thing, but mother of God is a totally different meaning to me. I don't like the priest confessionals either. I absolutely don't think they're necessary. We already know the scriptures on that. Now if they are there to counsel you, that's okay. Then finally, I do not like the praying to Mary or the saints because I think it is a waste of time. I think that since Jesus is making intercession to the Father, He deserves our time and attention. Oh, and I am bothered by the crucifix. We display an empty cross because He is not there. He has risen just as He said. That probably is just a reminder to your faith of His sufferings, though. Anyway, I could also pick apart some things I don't like about Southern Baptists and would be glad to were that the topic being discussed. I do not wish to be a Catholic basher by any means. I get angered by people saying,"If you're Catholic, you are going to hell." How can they possibly know that?

Thanks His Grace,Appreciate the respect most folks show here. It is a nice change from some other sites. Have gotten pretty thicked skin about it. As a Catholic in the South and from a Southern Baptist family, kind of have to roll with it.Job One,The thread started as whether Mary's ascension comes from scripture. While we know from scripture that it is possible for people to ascend without experiencing death, Mary's does not come from scripture.As to the other issues you raise, primarily Mary's role as Mediatrix, we should probably start another thread. For starters it is the role she is in at Christ's first miracle, we should start there.As to asking people to pray for us, am sure we all do. As Catholics we just include all the saints, living and those who have gone before us as being able to pray for us. In the sense we ask them to pray for us, one could call that request a prayer to them, but it is not the same as praying to God. And while such requests to including Mary are not uncommon, Catholics pray to Jesus, to God just like other Christians do.

Thanks, Red Letters. I like why you call yourself that. I firmly believe that how we treat each other is how we are treating Jesus. Did Jesus not say that to the sheep and the goats? I know that is off the topic of this thread of Mary's ascension. But, even if I don't agree that Mary ascended to heaven, I'm not going to be rude about it. Dr. B. is deserving of respect because he is my brother. And Mary is due respect because of who she is. I don't think I need a statue of her or need to pray to her, but I absolutely love her prayer, the Magnificat, in Luke 1, when she talks about her very soul magnifying the Lord. I like that the God of heaven remembered someone lowly like her.