Amos 5:24
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That is fine because we are ashamed also that you call yourself Christian. It is good that we agree on this.
Stranger
So you disagree with this?
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
If you disagree with this verse, explain what it means.
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Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
An emoticon is your proof..............well......................ok!!!!!
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If emoticons had no voice, you wouldn't use them.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
I have addressed it once before and I'll say it again. In context, the scriptures speak of how a christian is to conduct themselves in a civil manner. However, the term "civil manner" goes both ways. If you believe Kim Jong Un is a "minister of God" for your own good, then I have a bridge I can sell to you for pennies on the dollar. If the apostles had obeyed the "ministers of God" in their day, they would be disobeying Jesus Christs commandment to spread the gospel among the gentiles, the very act that was met with resistance from the authorities you would be calling "ministers of God".
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Are you going to interpret that verse or continue to play dodge the question? If you're so sure of yourself it shouldn't be that difficult to explain. What does it mean when it says the authorities that exist are appointed by God?
And you never said whether you agree or disagree with that passage. You gotta be on either side of the fence. Which side are you on?
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Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
You know what, in reading chapters 12 and 14, I now admit I was wrong, not for the reasons you have given, but in assuming that these higher authorities spoken of by Paul is actually speaking of governments at all, which means that we are all wrong about it. Its another shining example of how people will take one verse and rob it of its context. When reading the latter half of chapter 12 and the start of chapter 14, you will see that it in fact is not speaking of government authority being ordained by God at all. In chapter 12, Paul gives a list of do's and don'ts in how believers are to relate to each other within the church, or among themselves.
Does it make sense for Paul to be writing about how believers are to conduct themselves with other believers in one chapter only to suddenly switch the entire context to relations with government the next chapter, and then switch the context AGAIN in the next chapter to that of the former? Not at all. I've had this in the back of my mind for a while concerning chapter 13. When he says that this authority is "ordained by God" as his "ministers", it makes all the sense in the world for that authority to be referring to those within a church, and not governments. Like I said before, when God does speak explicitly of how we are to conduct ourselves with kings or governments, he doesn't command absolute submission to them no matter the circumstances.
Why is this the case? Well, its simple. Its because the common interpretation given for Romans 13 being about governments is false. Scripture makes it very clear on no uncertain terms that its actually Satan, the "god of this world" who has been given dominion over the kingdoms of the earth. This is why he can take Jesus up on a mountain and offer him all the kingdoms if he bowed before him. He isn't a moron, he wouldn't be offering Jesus control over something he himself had no control over to start with.
This isn't a matter of me reading too much into that scripture, because in Revelation Satan is revealed as the one who has dominion as the seven headed ten horned dragon. Revelation of course also makes it very clear that God will not be the one ruling the nations with a rod of iron until his second coming. Has he risen up kings before? Of course, Satan's dominion does not overwrite God's sovereignty, but that does not in any mean the governments themselves are ordained by him, to be his "ministers". No self-respecting Christian would ever call Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un a "minister of God".
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Yeah, I suppose you are wrong, since the topic was chapter 13 verse 1.
Really? Than who are we to pay taxes to within the church? I wasn't aware that the church imposed taxes and customs on it's congregation. Perhaps you'd like to expound on that. I've never heard of such a custom within the church. I don't usually follow links, but in this case I will. Please post links to your references.
Can't wait to see this.
Romans 13
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
No self-respecting Christian would ever call Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un a "minister of God".
You would if you understood the scriptures.
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Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
This really isn't that difficult to understand.
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
This really isn't that difficult to understand.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
In the king James version it says pay "tribute", not taxes. A tribute can just as easily be referring to paying your tithes to the church. You shouldn't need a link to understand that simple observation.
You would if you understood the scriptures.
I wouldn't actually, because I DO understand it, better than you at least.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
This really isn't that difficult to understand.
Yeah, it sure isn't Job, when taken into proper context of the previous and succeeding chapters you will see that its all about the church and its ministers chosen by God, not Donald Trump.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
I know one thing Aspen, this twisted belief people have about Romans 13 somehow being about subjecting yourself to Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un would fit fatalism to an absolute T. Its heresy to the core.
It could but it's not. And customs. Show me where the church makes it's members pay customs.
Could you also show me where the church authorities execute wrath upon their members using a sword.
Romans 13
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
And you haven't given the meaning of this verse yet. When do you figure you'll get around to doing that?
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
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tabletalk
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From 1Peter (bold type added by me): "13. Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14. or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16. as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."
(Rom. 13:1-7) is definitely talking about the political powers. God has demonstrated and stated before that all political powers are from Him, no matter how just or unjust they appear to man, and irregardless of what the powers think of themselves. See (Is. 10:5-16).
Also, (Dan. 4:17). "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."
So this, (Rom. 13), means the believer is to submit to the powers that be, but it does not mean we submit blindly to the powers that be. We submit until 'the powers that be' begin interfering with our faith in Christ. (Acts 4:17-20) "...Whether it be right in the sight of God, to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." Also, Daniel defied the Kings command to eat and drink of the Kings table. (Dan. 1:5-10)
But, if a believer does decide to defy the authorities, be ready to receive retribution from them. If it involves giving the gospel, be ready to suffer persecution for it. If it involves a political move be ready to suffer what ever the consequences may be. Our own American Revolution, for example, was going against the powers that be. Those Christians that participated knew that had they lost, they would not be patriots but traitors and rebels. And they would have been hung or shot.
Thus recognizing that (Rom. 13) speaks to political authorities and all authorities, is not to be treated as 'fatalism'. We as Christians recognize God's authority in the governments, and we try to identify with those we believe are moving in the way of God and not out of the way of God. Thus we vote, thus we go to war, thus when political upheaval begins, we choose which side we are on.
Stranger
Also, (Dan. 4:17). "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."
So this, (Rom. 13), means the believer is to submit to the powers that be, but it does not mean we submit blindly to the powers that be. We submit until 'the powers that be' begin interfering with our faith in Christ. (Acts 4:17-20) "...Whether it be right in the sight of God, to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." Also, Daniel defied the Kings command to eat and drink of the Kings table. (Dan. 1:5-10)
But, if a believer does decide to defy the authorities, be ready to receive retribution from them. If it involves giving the gospel, be ready to suffer persecution for it. If it involves a political move be ready to suffer what ever the consequences may be. Our own American Revolution, for example, was going against the powers that be. Those Christians that participated knew that had they lost, they would not be patriots but traitors and rebels. And they would have been hung or shot.
Thus recognizing that (Rom. 13) speaks to political authorities and all authorities, is not to be treated as 'fatalism'. We as Christians recognize God's authority in the governments, and we try to identify with those we believe are moving in the way of God and not out of the way of God. Thus we vote, thus we go to war, thus when political upheaval begins, we choose which side we are on.
Stranger
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
It could but it's not. And customs. Show me where the church makes it's members pay customs.
Could you also show me where the church authorities execute wrath upon their members using a sword.
Romans 13
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
And you haven't given the meaning of this verse yet. When do you figure you'll get around to doing that?
Its idiomatic for his ministers as authority figures executing judgement within the church like Jesus told them to, its not about literally cutting people into pieces with a sword.
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