The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

Copperhead said:

My idea of who they are probably is no better than anyone else's idea. Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration, and were recognized as such. Moses has generally been associated with the Torah or Law, and Elijah has generally been associated the prophets. Yeshua stated that the Torah and the Prophets testify of Him. I am not into some sort of reincarnation thing, but I think the two witnesses that on on the earth for the 2.5 years that Revelation lays out, like John the Baptist came in the spirit or calling of Elijah, the two witnesses will have the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah. They will perform similar feats that Moses and Elijah did during their time.

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yes, Yeshua and John the baptist are the two witness. Moses and Elijah are only the symbolic sign for them.

see, one don't have to guess when scripture plainly tell U.

Peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

101G said:

yes, Yeshua and John the baptist are the two witness. Moses and Elijah are only the symbolic sign for them.

see, one don't have to guess when scripture plainly tell U.

Peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

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Would you please provide references on how Yeshua will be killed by the false messiah during that time (per the account in Revelation) and His body will be laid out in the street of Jerusalem for all the world to see (probably via CNN or Fox News) and then will be resurrected right in front of everyone eyes for all to see.

Copperhead said:

Would you please provide references on how Yeshua will be killed by the false messiah during that time (per the account in Revelation) and His body will be laid out in the street of Jerusalem for all the world to see (probably via CNN or Fox News) and then will be resurrected right in front of everyone eyes for all to see.

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not killed by a false messiah, but the beast work in people, (the Jews, who killed our Lord, by their WORDS). crucify him. John beheaded, with his head in a charger. it was by words. scripture, Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". the fire in their mouth are the WORDS of God. supportive scripture, Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". now read Revelation 11:5 again.

"for all the world to see". did you not know that Pentecost was in progress, listen, Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven". no need for CNN, every nation UNDER HEAVEN had a witness there. case closed.

peace in Christ Yeshua.

Ok. Not really inclined to go down that rabbit trail.

Copperhead said:

Ok. Not really inclined to go down that rabbit trail.

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no rabbit trail or hole, but the truth in scriptures. peace.

Come on, it is an assertion from your perception of what the scripture says. Let's at least be honest. No passage in scripture says unequivocally that Yeshua is one of the two witnesses of Revelation. One might come to that conclusion via some perception of what the rest of scripture says, but that doesn't make it the absolute truth. Sure, I have my ideas on who they might be, but that doesn't mean my conclusions about it are any more valid than anyone else's.

I still would like to see a passage that clearly asserts that Yeshua is unequivocally one of the witnesses of Revelation. And for you to make that assertion, you really have to back it up with passages that clearly assert that, else your assertion is merely conjecture. The passage you did mention is more akin to what Moses and Elijah did during their time. Neither the Revelation passage or Jeremiah one gives clear indication that it is the Messiah Himself.

One cannot grab one verse here and another there and put them together without taking the entire context of scripture in view. That is like taking Mat 27:5, Judas went out and hanged himself, and then cherry picking a verse that says to go and do likewise and making a case that everyone should go out and hang themselves to be true to scripture.

Copperhead said:

Come on, it is an assertion from your perception of what the scripture says. Let's at least be honest. No passage in scripture says unequivocally that Yeshua is one of the two witnesses of Revelation.

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scripture, Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood". now John the Baptist, John 1:6-8 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light". my God the light bulb got to come on somewhere, at sometime.

I suggest you read some of my earlier posts.
peace in Yeshua.

True, Yeshua is a faithful witness, but that doesn't mean He is THE witness of Revelation 11. Same for JB. Yeshua Himself said that His disciples were His witnesses also.

While Yeshua is indeed the faithful witness per Revelation 1:5, He is also God Himself as He states in Revelation 2:8. The first and the last per scripture (especially passages in Isaiah) who was dead and is now alive per Rev 2:8 and Rev 1:18.

Revelation was written in the 90's of the first century, so it could not mean either Yeshua's or JB's death. So the witnesses who are killed and resurrected have to be someone else than Yeshua and JB. Yeshua said specifically in Rev 1:18 that while He was dead, He is alive for evermore. And He is the first and the last of Isaiah 44:6 and that beside Him there is no other God.

In Acts, we see the Apostles as witnesses, the prophets as witnesses, etc. Later in the Pauline epistles, we see the Holy Spirit is witness. In Hebrews, we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Lots of witnesses.

If He is alive for evermore, then how is it He is killed in Rev 11 by being one of the witnesses?

Copperhead said:

True, Yeshua is a faithful witness, but that doesn't mean He is THE witness of Revelation 11. Same for JB. Yeshua Himself said that His disciples were His witnesses also.

While Yeshua is indeed the faithful witness per Revelation 1:5, He is also God Himself as He states in Revelation 2:8. The first and the last per scripture (especially passages in Isaiah) who was dead and is now alive per Rev 2:8 and Rev 1:18.

Revelation was written in the 90's of the first century, so it could not mean either Yeshua's or JB's death. So the witnesses who are killed and resurrected have to be someone else than Yeshua and JB. Yeshua said specifically in Rev 1:18 that while He was dead, He is alive for evermore. And He is the first and the last of Isaiah 44:6 and that beside Him there is no other God.

If He is alive for evermore, then how is it He is killed in Rev 11 by being one of the witnesses?

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Copperhead, Copperhead, why do you rage? have you not read anything I posted?

Let's take this one step at a time.
#1. have anyone being faithful their entire life?. no one but the Lord Jesus.

#2. the Lord Jesus being the "EQUAL" share in flesh, DIED from the NATURAL flesh, BLOOD. blood is the "LIFE" of the flesh, supportive scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul". Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off".

#3. yes, he is the First, (Spirit) and the Last (Spirit in Flesh), the LAST ADAM, a "LIFE" giving spirit.

#4. "Revelation was written in the 90's of the first century, so it could not mean either Yeshua's or JB's death". scripture, Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter". hast seen? PAST TENSE, already HAPPEN. seen here, is the Greek word,
G1492 εἴδω eido (ei'-d̮ō) v.
1. (properly) to see (but not limited to the eye).
2. (by implication, in the perfect tense only) to personally know (i.e. to have seen or have experienced something by firsthand observation).
3. (by extension) to personally know how (to do).
4. (also) to see how (it is done).
KJV: be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot

seeing is not limited to the eyes only.

My God when is the light bulb is going to come on.

I suggest you re-read my previous post, ok. and learn while you read.

I think I have read enough. I am not raging. Still waiting for a definitive passage that confirms conclusively that Yeshua and JB are the witnesses of Revelation 11, which are "after these things" as stated in Rev 4:1, which comes immediately after the "which are" 7 churches.

RE: #3... I would have to disagree that Yeshua is either first or the last Adam or some "spirit in the flesh" idea, except in a rhetorical sense. He made it very clear He is the I AM of the burning bush, the YHWH of eternity, the Elohim of scripture. The angel, when he appeared to Mary to tell her she would bear the Messiah made that claim saying that He would be Emmanuel... Elohim among us. Yeshua made that clear enough that the religious leaders of that day picked up stones to throw at Him. When asked by Yeshua why they were attempting to stone Him, was it for something He did, they said that it was He claimed to be YHWH. They understood what He was claiming to be. YHWH made it quite clear in scripture that He is the First and the Last and there is no other God (Isa 44:6). Yeshua made that exact same claim. Either He was a liar, a lunatic, or the YHWH of eternity. Just as Isaiah claimed He would be in Isa 9:6 and the claim by Gabriel who appeared to Mary.

Yeshua claimed to be the same "first and last" in Rev 22:13, Rev 2:8. He also made virtually the same claim in John 14:9.

# 4:... hast seen was that which John saw in Chapter 1 before the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3. The letters to the 7 churches are the part of things which are at the time of the writing of Revelation. The operative wording is in Rev 4:1 "after these things". Which things? Basic grammatical structure suggests that it refers to the previous 2 chapters which contain letters to those 7 churches "which are" at the time of the writing of Revelation.

And Rev 1:1 lays out things..... The Revelation was of Yeshua and it was given to the angel, to give to John (not baptist version) who then wrote down these things. So any "hast seen" could not apply to anything before when this revelation was given to John. John had already written his Gospel account many years earlier of the things which he "hast seen" of the time when Yeshua walked among them. So the "hast seen" of Rev 1:19 can only apply to the previous 18 verses, which John "hast seen" before the command to write down what John "hast seen".

You do not have to be condescending in you rebuttals. Stuff like "why do you rage" (when I have done no such thing), "when is the light going to come on", and other personal attacks like "learn while I read". That is saying you have an exclusive on things and I am some sort of rube that can't see the forest for the trees. I have not made any attempt to demean your character in any way. I have challenged your assertions, but not your character. I think you need to step back and take a look at the log in your own eye before you worry about what you perceive to be the splinter in someone else's. I speak of your rebuttal approach, just in case you got the wrong idea of what I meant by that.

Copperhead said:

I think I have read enough.

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that's right, see, this is not for you. so STOP reading.

I'll end this conversation with you.

peace in Christ Yeshua.

Copperhead said:

Basic grammatical structure suggests that it refers to the previous 2 chapters which contain letters to those 7 churches "which are" at the time of the writing of Revelation.

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nice imo. who these "churches" are representing is poorly defined, and likely a good path to understanding the "Two Witnesses" better.

101G said:

that's right, see, this is not for you. so STOP reading.

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Which, only serves to prove @Copperhead 's point regarding condescension. Of course, that was not the first time such has been mentioned to you, and I am sure it shall not be the last.

101G said:

I'll end this conversation with you.

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I don't think you can terminate what has already been terminated.

101G said:

peace in Christ Yeshua.

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Doth the fountain send forth from the same opening sweet water and bitter?

Richard_oti said:

Which, only serves to prove @Copperhead 's point regarding condescension. Of course, that was not the first time such has been mentioned to you, and I am sure it shall not be the last.




I don't think you can terminate what has already been terminated.




Doth the fountain send forth from the same opening sweet water and bitter?

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1. condescension?, no you can bring a horse to the water but one cannot make him drink.
2. Don't think?, what have been terminate?, no it's been finished..... LOL.
3. no the fountain "bring" forth, instead of "send" forth. for the source is already sent..... .
4. "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness".2 Timothy 2:16
5. Now I will terminate this conversation with you. for if one wants to continue in a conversation, this is what facebook and tweeter are for.

bbyrd009 said:

nice imo. who these "churches" are representing is poorly defined, and likely a good path to understanding the "Two Witnesses" better.

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Good insight! You are on the correct path to identifying the "Two Witnesses." Keep up the good work and you will eventually solve the mystery of the two witnesses which has eluded all.

Pay close attention to the "two Olive trees" and the "two Candle Sticks." They are your clues.

To God Be The Glory

'And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.'
(Rev 11:3-4)

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, and said unto me, "What seest thou?"

And I said," I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."

So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"

Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, "Knowest thou not what these be? "And I said, "No, my lord."

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,
"This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."

Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth."

- Then answered I, and said unto him, "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?"
- And I answered again, and said unto him," What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"

And he answered me and said, "Knowest thou not what these be?" And I said, "No, my lord."

Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
(Zec 4:1-14)

Jun2u said:

Good insight! You are on the correct path to identifying the "Two Witnesses." Keep up the good work and you will eventually solve the mystery of the two witnesses which has eluded all.

Pay close attention to the "two Olive trees" and the "two Candle Sticks." They are your clues.

To God Be The Glory

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sounds more like "to you be the glory" wadr, i mean yikes already

Jun2u said:

Good insight! You are on the correct path to identifying the "Two Witnesses." Keep up the good work and you will eventually solve the mystery of the two witnesses which has eluded all.

Pay close attention to the "two Olive trees" and the "two Candle Sticks." They are your clues.

To God Be The Glory

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I Have a question for you J2. is not the church, or in this case the churches in Revelation, are not the LIGHT of the world?, scripture, Matthew 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid". we, the church carry the spiritual light of the world, meaning the Gospel. so how can the church (it's member) be referred to a candlestick? for a candlestick is not the candle, but the candlestick is the HOLDER for a candle. please look up the definition of candlestick. in Zechariah there was only 1 candlestick with seven LAMPS.......

and the two trees are person, and not anything else. and the Olive is the anointing oil which is the Holy Spirit/God almighty.


peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

I think Romans 11:17-27 has some clues as to who the two witnesses are. RoyM.

charity said:

'And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.'
(Rev 11:3-4)

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, and said unto me, "What seest thou?"

And I said," I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."

So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"

Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, "Knowest thou not what these be? "And I said, "No, my lord."

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,
"This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."

Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth."

- Then answered I, and said unto him, "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?"
- And I answered again, and said unto him," What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"

And he answered me and said, "Knowest thou not what these be?" And I said, "No, my lord."

Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
(Zec 4:1-14)

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In Zechariah 4, the two Olive trees are explained as denoting Zerubbabel the Prince, and Jeshua the High Priest: and when it says in Revelation 11:4, 'These (two witnesses) ARE the two Olive trees' etc., This is the Holy Spirit's own explanation of these two witnesses. For just as Zerubbabel and Jeshua were raised up, and gifted, Divinely endowed, and protected against Satan's assaults, so in the coming day of Israel's acknowledgment by God, Two Witnesses from God will be raised up, corresponding to them, occupying a similar position as the repositories of Heavenly power and wisdom, and exercising a similar ministry.

The two Olive trees represented two individuals then, and they represent two individuals in Revelation 11:3-4. They will be the 'two Olive trees' for their day, as Zerubbabel and Jeshua were in a former day.

However if God wished us to know who they are He would have told us.
Where He remains silent so should we.

In Christ Jesus
charity