Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

FHII said:

I am a bit confused Aspen. Earlier posts by you seemed to indicate you had no problem with, "lead us not into tempation..."

Are you changing your mind on that?

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I see the Pope’s point of view on this issue, as far as his concerns about the current translation being misleading for some......I just do not fall into that category of people so the current wording is not misleading for me. If people want to make the change, i can see why; i am fine with it as is.

aspen said:

I see the Pope’s point of view on this issue, as far as his concerns about the current translation being misleading for some......I just do not fall into that category of people so the current wording is not misleading for me. If people want to make the change, i can see why; i am fine with it as is.

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And what was the original wording, concerning this change you are fine with?

No one should expect anything less from the 8th king who is of the seven and is a beast and is going to perdition= his destruction.

EndTimeWine said:

And what was the original wording, concerning this change you are fine with?

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Begging the question

aspen said:

Begging the question

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Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.

A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning. Logical fallacies are like tricks or illusions of thought, and they're often very sneakily used by politicians and the media to fool people. OR USED BY POPES.

aspen said:

Yet, the entire Bible is read during Mass in the Catholic Church?

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Yeah, so? I'm sure Satan can quote scripture better than any of us can without even opening a book.

aspen said:

So Satan is required for our salvation? We were meant to eat the fruit? God told us not to eat the fruit, setting us up to do it, and punishes us for eating it? Sounds like an abusive father to me, not God....

Perhaps this is why so many Christians talk about Satan so much....

Guess you have an answer for Jesus when he asked “"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?”, right EndTimeWine?

As for Christianity, there is no place for dualism.

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Well lets see, he declared the end from the very beginning, including the birth and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, meaning he knew everything that was going to occur long before he even laid the foundations of the earth. So yes, I would say Adam and Eve were meant to eat from the tree. Without the fall, you don't have the knowledge of sin (which is why the tree is called the knowledge of good & evil) and if there is no sin, then there is no need for an atonement for those sins. Yes, he told them not to eat of it, but he also commanded Israel to do many things that they failed to do, so that doesn't prove anything beyond our own hard headed disobedience.

Maybe this is why God allowed it to happen? He knew that us having a mind of our own, not being me're automatons would likely not do what he asked of us and fall by the wayside. Knowing this would eventually occur, I can totally understand why things must come to pass as they have and will, because in the event that we do fall, we have an advocate with the Father as our atonement. But than, one may ponder why God bothered putting the tree in the garden to begin with. If the tree is what gave us the knowledge of sin, then why put it there? The only way I can answer this is with Satan's fall from glory.

(Ezekiel 28:12-17) "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. {13} Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {14} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. {15} Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. {16} By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. {17} Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

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Obviously he didn't need a tree giving him the knowledge of sin to commit a sin, so how exactly was iniquity found with him? I think this well known verse below should about answer this question.

(Isaiah 14:12-15) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

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Now the ten commandments has a saying against coveting something that isn't yours, which is what Satan was doing. In his jealousy, he wanted to take the place of God, so therefore he sinned. In fact, we see in Revelation that he will be worshiped by the world as God, symbolized by the dragon. So if an angel can fall even though they were made perfect much like Adam and Eve were, then would it have really mattered for us if there ever was such a tree to begin with? Remember, its not the tree that suddenly introduced sin as if it never existed before. It wasn't called the tree of good and evil, it was called the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, insinuating that the concept of sin always has and presumably always will exist. The reason for this would depend on how you define sin.

I keep it simple, sin is anything that is against the very nature of God, because the law being holy is spirit, and God is the law him also being spirit, holy and righteous. I think there is a profound lesson that is to be had from Satan's fall that I haven't really seen taken into consideration. It is highly likely that God knew from the get go that we would have fallen eventually even without a tree giving us the knowledge of sin just like Satan did, which is why there is absolutely a need for an atonement for our sins, or an advocate. Would this still be the case in the new heaven and earth? I don't think so, because in the new heaven and earth, there is no more Satan, no tree giving us the knowledge of good and evil, and we'll have Jesus as our king, our high priest standing before the Father on our behalf, because it is through Jesus Christ that he will "remember our sins no more".

FHII said:

"The word in question is peirasmos[from New Testament Greek]
We see two cases: one ine which the Lord tempted Abraham and another where the spirit lead Jesis to be tempted by the devil. But as this commentator noted, it can also mean to be tested.

The question is then, does the Lord test us?

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YES! He has done since the beginning.
Why have a lovely Garden, say that it was all good. Then tell them not to eat of the one tree. If He didn't want to test them, then He wouldn't have put it there in the first place.

Deut 8:2 shows the reason for the wilderness..

"And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, ...."
God obviously always knows what is in our hearts...the test is for our sake..so that we know how well or not, we are growing in Him and maturing.

My two cents

FHII said:

I pulled this from the article in the OP:

"The word in question is peirasmos[from New Testament Greek] which means both to tempt and to be tested," the Rev. Ian Paul told the newspaper. "So on one level the pope has a point. But he's also stepping into a theological debate about the nature of evil."

We see two cases: one ine which the Lord tempted Abraham and another where the spirit lead Jesis to be tempted by the devil. But as this commentator noted, it can also mean to be tested.

The question is then, does the Lord test us?

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Absolutely, The Father does not need fair weather friends. Do not forget Job. The question is do we trust in God to submit to His will ? When temptation rears its head do we let God lead or do we let go of His hand?

Dcopymope said:

Yeah, so? I'm sure Satan can quote scripture better than any of us can without even opening a book.



Well lets see, he declared the end from the very beginning, including the birth and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, meaning he knew everything that was going to occur long before he even laid the foundations of the earth. So yes, I would say Adam and Eve were meant to eat from the tree. Without the fall, you don't have the knowledge of sin (which is why the tree is called the knowledge of good & evil) and if there is no sin, then there is no need for an atonement for those sins. Yes, he told them not to eat of it, but he also commanded Israel to do many things that they failed to do, so that doesn't prove anything beyond our own hard headed disobedience.

Maybe this is why God allowed it to happen? He knew that us having a mind of our own, not being me're automatons would likely not do what he asked of us and fall by the wayside. Knowing this would eventually occur, I can totally understand why things must come to pass as they have and will, because in the event that we do fall, we have an advocate with the Father as our atonement. But than, one may ponder why God bothered putting the tree in the garden to begin with. If the tree is what gave us the knowledge of sin, then why put it there? The only way I can answer this is with Satan's fall from glory.



Obviously he didn't need a tree giving him the knowledge of sin to commit a sin, so how exactly was iniquity found with him? I think this well known verse below should about answer this question.



Now the ten commandments has a saying against coveting something that isn't yours, which is what Satan was doing. In his jealousy, he wanted to take the place of God, so therefore he sinned. In fact, we see in Revelation that he will be worshiped by the world as God, symbolized by the dragon. So if an angel can fall even though they were made perfect much like Adam and Eve were, then would it have really mattered for us if there ever was such a tree to begin with? Remember, its not the tree that suddenly introduced sin as if it never existed before. It wasn't called the tree of good and evil, it was called the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, insinuating that the concept of sin always has and presumably always will exist. The reason for this would depend on how you define sin.

I keep it simple, sin is anything that is against the very nature of God, because the law being holy is spirit, and God is the law him also being spirit, holy and righteous. I think there is a profound lesson that is to be had from Satan's fall that I haven't really seen taken into consideration. It is highly likely that God knew from the get go that we would have fallen eventually even without a tree giving us the knowledge of sin just like Satan did, which is why there is absolutely a need for an atonement for our sins, or an advocate. Would this still be the case in the new heaven and earth? I don't think so, because in the new heaven and earth, there is no more Satan, no tree giving us the knowledge of good and evil, and we'll have Jesus as our king, our high priest standing before the Father on our behalf.

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You have a deep love and trust in the Lord. God does not need robots, or fair weather friends, but children who truly love Him and Want to do His will.
This kind of faith is hard to come by. God Bless !

EndTimeWine said:

You have a deep love and trust in the Lord. God does not need robots, or fair weather friends, but children who truly love Him and Want to do His will.
This kind of faith is hard to come by. God Bless !

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Thanks, people need to realize just how profound the atonement really is. It is not by Adam and Eve's own created perfection that would have made us sinless before God, it is by the second Adam that atoned for our sins that makes those who repent innocent or sinless. Without Jesus, you not only wouldn't have our own redemption, but you also don't have a new heaven and earth, because it is through his Resurrection that everything was made new, the whole of creation. So whenever an unbeliever comes to you with these types of questions about why God allowed the fall to occur, you would just simply say that God knowing the future, knew that the fall would have occurred eventually somewhere, somehow, and that's why he chose his only begotten son as the lamb to be slain for our sins from the beginning.

Dcopymope said:

Thanks, people need to realize just how profound the atonement really is. It is not by Adam and Eve's own created perfection that would have made us sinless before God, it is by the second Adam that atoned for our sins that makes those who repent innocent or sinless. Without Jesus, you not only wouldn't have our own redemption, but you also don't have a new heaven and earth, because it is through his Resurrection that everything was made new, the whole of creation. So whenever an unbeliever comes to you with these types of questions about why God allowed the fall to occur, you would just simply say that God knowing the future, knew that the fall would have occurred eventually somewhere, somehow, and that's why he chose his only begotten son as the lamb to be slain for our sins from the beginning.

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Amen...well said.
We serve an awesome God! \o/ \o/ \o/

tabletalk said:

How about "anti-Catholic Church"? Not, anti-catholic people.

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I stand corrected. Thank you.

"ByGrace" said:

YES! He has done since the beginning.
Why have a lovely Garden, say that it was all good. Then tell them not to eat of the one tree. If He didn't want to test them, then He wouldn't have put it there in the first place.

Deut 8:2 shows the reason for the wilderness..

"And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, ...."
God obviously always knows what is in our hearts...the test is for our sake..so that we know how well or not, we are growing in Him and maturing.

My two cents

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I had opened a window to reply, but I saw you beat me to it! <chuckle>

Thus why I read through the forum before I reply <grin>. Most of the time that is.

EndTimeWine said:

"aspen" who leads and guides you as you confront the world? Are we called to be in the world but not of it? And Why? Who is in the world?And why must we be lead by the Spirit to confront it. If you are of the world you are of temptation, RIGHT? So, those who are of the world are INTO temptation, RIGHT? And therefore TRY to lead the faithful into to it too, RIGHT?

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“EndTimeWine” as I stated previously, I follow Christ. Confronting the world is not on my path....confronting and overthowing my false self/ego/old man is my primary struggle. Practicing and allowing God to perfect ‘loving God and neighbor’ through service is my sanctification. Worldliness and the world around us are different. As a Christian, I am called to love people and distance myself from human culture (including Christian Culture) because it distracts from sanctification. The Spirit confronts our ego, not the world - the Spirit is concerned with sanctifying citizens of the Kingdom of God, not overthrowing Caesar.....Caesar recieves what is his, worldliness. We are transformed into full citizens of the Kingdom of God when we become perfect lovers, our true reason for existing - eternity/heaven/the Garden State of being is experienced fully after death, a state of being without change.

If you believe i am worldly and leading you into temptation, you better run away.

As you go, note that ‘Aspen’ is a tree. Asp is a snake - sorry to disappoint you.

Response to ASPEN'S Post #56.

A lot of duality in your statement it must be difficult to be you? Do not confront the world, yet called to love people, distancing yourself from Christian culture, yet a citizen of the Kingdom of God, aspen a tree, asp a snake, sanctifying yet not over throwing.
Do not confront the world: Yet we are called to make disciples of all nations.
Matthew:
…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…
This even in the smallest sense. And to bring Christ to people is to love people.
Distancing yourself from Christian Culture?:
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…

Citizenship in Heaven Philippians 3:19-21
…19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.…

Can not be a citizen and not do the above.

AS FOR TOPPLING OR OVERTHROWING GOVERNMENTS:
Isaiah 9:5-7
Unto Us a Child is Born
…5For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.…

Psalm 2:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom
2 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
If a Citizen of heaven , can not avoid this.

Matthew 5:37
37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one
Either you are for or you are against. Either you are a child of light or darkness. Either you are at the left or the right, cold or hot!
Rev.3:15-17
To the Church in Laodicea
…15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other. 16So because you are lukewarm — neither hot nor cold — I am about to spit you out of My mouth! 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.…
WE CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
So I am not really sure what your purpose here is? Not that I say you should not be here. But what is your purpose is to build or be a "tare" down?
tare1
ter/
noun
noun: tare; plural noun: tares

1. 1.
   a vetch, especially the common vetch.
2. 2.
   (in biblical use) an injurious weed resembling wheat when young (Matt. 13:24–30).

Did you resemble wheat when young? And now that you are old you are what?
"ASPEN" said:I follow Christ.
Do you?
"Aspen" said:If you believe i am worldly and leading you into temptation, you better run away.
No I will not run away, I am called to confront, when lead by the Spirit that is what we are to do. Hence, confronting you?
Since you do not comply with the prerequisit:
pre·req·ui·site
prēˈrekwəzət/
noun
noun: prerequisite; plural noun: prerequisites; noun: pre-requisite; plural noun: pre-requisites

1. 1.
   a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist.
   "sponsorship is not a prerequisite for any of our courses"
   synonyms: (necessary) condition, precondition, essential, requirement, requisite, necessity, sine qua non;
   informalmust
   "a prerequisite for the course"

adjective
adjective: prerequisite; adjective: pre-requisite
1.
required as a prior condition.
"the student must have the prerequisite skills"
synonyms: necessary, required, called for, essential, requisite, obligatory, compulsory
"the prerequisite qualifications"

YOU CAN NOT BE A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST! "LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION"= to believe such doctrines and precepts of men.
"But deliver us from evil"= people who lie and deceive like The POPE and YOU! You have the stamp of "RED STEW". The Wise will not eat it.

aspen said:

I follow Christ. Confronting the world is not on my path....confronting and overthowing my false self/ego/old man is my primary struggle.
Practicing and allowing God to perfect ‘loving God and neighbor’ through service is my sanctification.
Worldliness and the world around us are different. As a Christian, I am called to love people and distance myself from human culture (including Christian Culture) because it distracts from sanctification.
The Spirit confronts our ego, not the world - the Spirit is concerned with sanctifying citizens of the Kingdom of God, not overthrowing Caesar.....Caesar recieves what is his, worldliness. We are transformed into full citizens of the Kingdom of God when we become perfect lovers, our true reason for existing - eternity/heaven/the Garden State of being is experienced fully after death, a state of being without change.

If you believe i am worldly and leading you into temptation, you better run away.

As you go, note that ‘Aspen’ is a tree. Asp is a snake - sorry to disappoint you.

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Amen brother...so many people are so busy in pointing out speaks in other peoples eyes...they are blind to the beams in their own.

Keep on sharing all the truth that you share with us..."some" of us are listening and learning. ( but to my shame I admit, I have not got to the humility that you and Amadeus have attained to...I have a long way yet to go on that road.

Many blessings...H

aspen said:

“EndTimeWine” as I stated previously, I follow Christ. Confronting the world is not on my path....confronting and overthowing my false self/ego/old man is my primary struggle. Practicing and allowing God to perfect ‘loving God and neighbor’ through service is my sanctification. Worldliness and the world around us are different. As a Christian, I am called to love people and distance myself from human culture (including Christian Culture) because it distracts from sanctification. The Spirit confronts our ego, not the world - the Spirit is concerned with sanctifying citizens of the Kingdom of God, not overthrowing Caesar.....Caesar recieves what is his, worldliness. We are transformed into full citizens of the Kingdom of God when we become perfect lovers, our true reason for existing - eternity/heaven/the Garden State of being is experienced fully after death, a state of being without change.

If you believe i am worldly and leading you into temptation, you better run away.

As you go, note that ‘Aspen’ is a tree. Asp is a snake - sorry to disappoint you.

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LIARS FEARFUL OF TRUTH! Love how you alter post, to make your arguments more legit. One can not expect Christianity here.

seems i recall it used to be "...and lead us, not into temptation, but..."

which was supposed to essentially reflect the pope's pov?