What is a "personal relationship" with Jesus

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kalixx

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This is a phrase I hear and see written so often, but I am not sure what it really means. I do not have anything that I could call a "personal" relationship. So I would be interested to hear what other Christians mean when they say this. How does it work? What does it do? What does it feel like?OK, I read the bible and I try to live as described therein, but I never feel, or hear, or find any evidence of, any personal response from outside of my own mind. So what is this "relationship" all about and what makes it "personal"?I would sincerely like one, I just don't have one!
 

Siskim

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Kalixx, I think of the man called Nicodemus, who asked Jesus, how can I go back into my mother's womb and be "born again, when Jesus told him this is what he must do to see the Kingdom of God. This man was inquisitive, yet did not see. The Seeing comes on the other side of Salvation, because it's on the other side that we are born, not by the flesh, as we already have been, but by God's Spirit. In a theological sense, we have been living only a physical existence, but to accept God's Salvation really is to be born again...born in Spirit...so that where we had no element in us before that could know, hear, comprehend, have a relationship with God, now He gives us spiritual life! And that by His Spirit coming right into our heart...so how could you not know someone who was living right inside your heart? We do know; God says we can and will know...that our personal proof is the witness of His spirit in our heart.With that, your only issue is do you really want Him to come into your heart? The Bible tells us the simple message of Salvation.... that "all have sinned and come short of the glory or perfect righteousness of God..."that "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son.." to take on the sins of the world, and so now anyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God and believes that Jesus did die the death he did in order to save you from the wages of sin which is death, and wants to accept this Great Salvation...that God will in no way deny any man who asks Him for the forgiveness of the sin we are born into and have lived in...but anyone who asks, He will receive, he will pardon, he will give power to become his own son...a son of God...or a child of his... and a child knows His father and he says, "My sheep know my voice," and He also says....I will go before them and lead them....My Brother, it's not a matter of so much knowledge, and it's not a hard thing...to have this relationship you talk to the one who you want to have the relationship with. If we had our eye on a man or woman we wanted to have relationship with, who would we be trying to talk to? What will create a relationship with someone? Knowing all about them...or letting them come into our world...our heart...and we want most of all for them to come into our heart and world, yes? We want it most of all...even before we know them so well often....And after they come in...then we start to know them. A child can know God He says...yet some "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,".....so then...be a child...A child easily believes and trusts...do you believe that Jesus died for you? Some people hit the bottom in life and find God because they have seen a Truth that they may never have seen if they could have kept on making it alone....that we can't make it alone! this is true even when we don't hit bottom, the only difference is we don't "see" it. Hitting bottom helps us to "see" ....but you don't have to hit bottom...just know that there is a bottom...and there is a God, and that sin is real and it leads us to death, and there is a man, who is God's own Son, who gave his life for you and me, and paid the price of sin's decree, so you and I could now be free, from the powers of sin that keep us dead, separated from the God who says He IS Love, and and being so made a way to redeem his fallen man from his separated state from his creator...and this way my brother is by the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ...the heart knowledge...that God is real, loves you, wants you...wants you to be reunited with him...to be His...to call you a son...to come into your heart and life and abide with you...and reveal Himself to you, and give you that joy unspeakable and full of glory, the half which has never been told, and peace that passes all understanding...by your acceptance of His Son, and wash away all the sin that has kept every one of us separated from God...blind to Him in every way...and make you a new man...from the inside out....If you are sincere I hope to see you again...I can and would have liked to share with you the magnitude of what this relationship has been and continues to be to me...even daily today...but what matters most is that you know yourself what Paul said..."Christ in you, the hope of glory," and you can and you will....if simply it's what you really want...You will be amazed beyond your wildest imagination to find how greatly God will show "You" who He is, how He will show up right inside you...so that then...there will be no question...once a man has known or seen God for himself...no question remains... You can find him easily in the secret closet of prayer......................siskim
 

kalixx

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Nov 19, 2007
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Hi Siskim, and thanks for such a detailed response, I really appreciate the time you have given me. I'd like to make some points:(Siskim;35065)
In a theological sense, we have been living only a physical existence, but to accept God's Salvation really is to be born again...born in Spirit...so that where we had no element in us before that could know, hear, comprehend, have a relationship with God, now He gives us spiritual life!
This is what I find to be the horse and cart part because I have no mechanism for accepting the reality of God's Salvation unless I have experienced Him, but, as you say, without that acceptance there is no element with which to do this. This maybe is an example of the difference between faith and belief. Sure, I can believe that a wooden bridge is safe, but would I also have faith to risk my own life by walking over it. In the same way, I can believe in God and what the bible tells me that He is offering me, but I have no relationship that inspires the faith and trust that should accompany that belief. It remains an academic belief and not a conviction.
And that by His Spirit coming right into our heart...so how could you not know someone who was living right inside your heart? We do know; God says we can and will know...that our personal proof is the witness of His spirit in our heart.
But this is my point. I do not have any recognition of any external being living in my heart whatsoever. All that exists there are my own feelings and emotions for others. There is noone else with whom I can have a so-called relationship. But SO many Christians talk about their "personal relationship" - so what is it? how does it manifest itself? - or is it like the emperor's new clothes, that everyone thinks there should be one so they simply assume one?
God will in no way deny any man who asks Him for the forgiveness of the sin we are born into and have lived in...but anyone who asks, He will receive, he will pardon, he will give power to become his own son...a son of God...or a child of his... and a child knows His father and he says, "My sheep know my voice," and He also says....I will go before them and lead them....
I ask, but I hear no voice.
My Brother, it's not a matter of so much knowledge, and it's not a hard thing...to have this relationship you talk to the one who you want to have the relationship with.
I am incapable of prayer. Praying for me has always been akin to talking on a cell-phone knowing that the battery is dead. There is noone on the other end. So why does the bible report Jesus saying that he will come in whenever someone opens the door/will open the door whenever someone knocks? I have done both, but I have no personal relationship?
and reveal Himself to you, and give you that joy unspeakable and full of glory, the half which has never been told, and peace that passes all understanding...by your acceptance of His Son, and wash away all the sin that has kept every one of us separated from God...blind to Him in every way...and make you a new man...from the inside out....
I understand the theory, and I have tried to believe with the meagre strength I have. However, as I understand it, faith is a gift of God. If God is such a loving Father, why is His love and presence so illusive? What does it mean to "know" God? I know nothing more about Him than what I have read.
If you are sincere I hope to see you again...I can and would have liked to share with you the magnitude of what this relationship has been and continues to be to me...even daily today...but what matters most is that you know yourself what Paul said..."Christ in you, the hope of glory," and you can and you will....if simply it's what you really want...
Well, that is what I really do want to know: What does "Christ in you" really mean and feel like if it really is a personal relationship and not just dry belief.
You will be amazed beyond your wildest imagination to find how greatly God will show "You" who He is, how He will show up right inside you...so that then...there will be no question...once a man has known or seen God for himself...no question remains... You can find him easily in the secret closet of prayer......................siskim
As I mentioned earlier, prayer does not work for me. It feels false and my concentration lasts about 10 secs. I sit in church praying with the congregation and my mind is wandering around work matters, decorating, kids, just about anything other than what we are communally praying for. So could you tell me more specifically what you mean by "He will show up right inside you" - I would really like to know.My Christian faith is purely technical belief without conviction or personal faith based on anything personally experienced. And I am sure that it is purely the result of being born in a Christian country. If I were raised in a muslim country, I am sure that I would be a muslim. There must be more to it than this......Sincere thanks to you once again, friend
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lastsecman

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Kalixx, if you want to have a personal relationship with God. You would have to believe in the salvation He had given you already.I am saying this because I had been through the same thing as you before, not knowing what a 'personal relationship' with God means. But when I simply believed in my salvation (no works need to be added to it), only then did I start to experience a personal relationship with God.To put it short, having a personal relationship with God is experiencing God's love towards you.
 

Siskim

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Kalixx, How sad, for me to know such wonder that you feel is so impossible to find. Do think perhaps you have more doubt than want, more question than belief, and more wonder than need? Jesus said he came for the sick, not those who were well, and I know he didn't mean he came for only some, because we've read that He doesn't wish for any to perish...is it possible sir that you (your heart) does not really feel a need for God, but more of only a wondering if there is really something real to it?The you might ask, Is God a hard man? Does he require something hard of me, or does he make me beg for this gift he says is free? Well then, maybe this time I will give you a testimony instead, realizing myself that I did not myself, come to know Jesus personally by head knowledge but by His love, and it has been so since...I mean even today it's His love that I recognize and see and feel, and that speaks to me, not in audible words, and assures me that I am his, and kept by the power of his love from all things that in this world vie for your soul and mine. And they do vie, and to highlight that reality and at the same time hope to give you a reality of our need, so that you can recognize that you have one, even though all may seem to be well in you life (is it? it doesn't seem to be the case with most people)It is also a truth brother that God said to seek Him. Quick story first...I set myself to getting up early and praying 1 solid hour everday years ago because I was in Louisiana at Swaggarts bible college, my husband attending but I took only 1 class...Power of Prayer. It was very hard to do; I was like you; totally distracted, yawning and my body wanted to be in bed! At this time I did know God already in me, and well, but still my body was used to doing it's thing and not moving all it's feelings aside for time with God. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I persisted! I was going to accomplish this...I knew already how our mortal side resists God, and I also knew what fabulous Life we know by being in God's presence. Within few days I found it much easier and not very long I would come to this place on the kitchen floor where I prayed and read Bible at same time...and now I would not make it to the floor before I just cried...cried feeling so intensely God's presence all around me, and I began to pray then like I knew was possible! My life changed...I changed...One of my Testimonies.......Me and my husband at that time came from being potheads to going to the lake on saturday nights to talk to the drinking teenagers and pray with them...and some did pray with us..in groups even. God led us into ministry and made us also aware of individual callings. There was always though a problem in our marriage and it made me so sad because we were such a spiritual team together...I remember at a very high spiritual time in life around age 20 this hispanic preacher I adored, so cool, said to me, "satan desires to sift you as sand." I couldn't believe it could happen...I was so high in God, a young on fire Jesus girl who affected people everywhere I went with this love and message I now had in my heart.Next thing you know, we are separated...it lasted 7 years. 7 years of deep pain, crying, asking God Why? I mean crying and praying on the floor, laying across the bed, feeling depression all the time...why? Because at once I felt so whole in life, not just because of good family, with young boy, and ministry I loved...loved people...but the interior completeness and joy and joy again. If you ever experience 2 seconds in God's presence then you know what Joy really is.During this time he kept the kids on weekends, I had a fun and good job and money in a big pile in a drawer, a good car, a nice apartment, friends, and then a boyfriend I was crazy about. I felt empty! I felt this emptiness for 7 years. What kind of testimony is this to people! We were pretty well known. I had so much deep pain more over losing the ministry and all that God had given me to be and know in life than over the marriage. I felt very bad about that too, but to lose who God had shown me I really was "in Him"...to lose His presence and my hearts love and passion...being his and to other people...was enough to make me severly depressed.I have always been like a child in a way; what some might call naive...I always loved God since he came to me, and had no heart to ever do anything wrong or to hurt anyone...I knew His love toward me and other people...I knew how to have great mercy for others but not me so much.So after I surrendered with "great agony" to giving up this boyfriend who I knew God was telling me No! about...who followed me back to MI...when I came back to parents with 2 young kids to go to Nursing school...I "drug" myself to church one night...a revival...just me. I didn't want to go so much...I wanted God to help me out of my despair! I was at the bottom...so sad and depressed.This young Mexican evangelist I never knew...calls me out of the crowd of people and starts telling me things while praying for me. I did not notice him or other people much...I felt God there and heard these words he said to me, "satan has tried to destroy your family but God is going to restore it."I believed this...because I knew God...I had no shadow of doubt. Yet I coudn't figure out how in the world He could restore my family! Me and him had no man-woman relationship at all and never really did...it was sad to me.Sometime later I had one of these heart to heart talks with God, about how I was still young and wanted a man and family and home, because I was still young. Very soon after met my husband Phil. Still feeling confused and worried...about losing everything due to divorce, I went one night to a preacher for help...half crying in all my anguish. He said if I married Phil I'd end up in hell and never preach again. I went home, fell across the bed, and sobbed., and got the courage to ask for the first time, would I ever preach again?2 weeks to the day I was preaching for the first time alone in a city a distance from me. Soon later married Phil after I made "sure" it was ok and good to God. One day before Phil and I even thought to talk about marriage he says to me, "you're going to have a baby." He didn't know if it was going to be his. Phil always has been such a good man; I could feel it about him when I didn't know him yet. He's 19 yrs older than me. Took some heavy criticism and meanness from some over my relation with him, but trusted God...prayed always...telling God..if it's not right and not what you want I will surrender and give him up.Today at 46 me and him 65, I have "another" boy and girl...lost so much of the first two to divorce and an Ex who was rather selfish with them. while I listen to everyone talk about how their wife or husband is so bad and hear of all the separations...I am knowing how blessed I am to have such an excellent man, and sweet home...all the things I felt sad for losing and never having..at this age people say to Phil...Man what were you thinking! We are thinking that God has blessed us both immensely...we are full, not empty with these little kids and our life.I've been a Nurse for 10 years, and wanted to give up during Clinicals and quit...it was so hard! Had to stay up all night many times to get care plans done for next day...while I was 8 months pregnant and so stressed and worried about baby...3 miscarriages in past. Phil says one day, "God gave you Nursing, you have to make it." So I made it.My mother says to me, Kim, I don't know why your life has been so hard. (I really have told nothing of the trials and pains I have had one after another). And I didn't think satan could sift me!This last year he almost got me good. Phil almost died and I almost lost this my whole family...kids too. It's quite a story...good enough to make a book. He wasn't dying because of natural illness, but at his age he has at times asked God how long he would be with me. He had heard...he would be with me as long as I need him. I was not needing him at that time because I was persuaded by a delusion I won't tell now, but it wasn't the usual thing...a man. Phil saw the Lord here in the room while he was like a dying person...half here and half gone...he kept telling me.."Look, He's there." Then he started saying, "I have to sleep awhile because he's gotta do some things in me." He slept; I thought he was dying; he looked like he was! I am a nurse.After 45 minutes I turned from feet away and saw him standing and laughing with the kids, and to this day have no idea how that old home movie got put on of the kids as babies. My kids wouldn't have and couldn't have found it and Phil wouldn't have at that point, and besides...I was less than 10 feet away and didn't hear anything....I just turned and saw.My life "again" restored...from the bankruptsy we came into as a result of that year...and no job....Today have been blessed financially many times, and all of a sudden it came to me to register for online college....not even Realizing I was getting into Christian University...story to that too. never thought before at this age I would make my dream and heart's desire...counceling...but on the path now, and also studying theology and christian philosophy and it gives me a high! It's me. Counceling always my dream, and sense of ministry calling...and so much for Family and Marriage...since I have been to hell and back...and seen what satan does and what God can do.I know I have callings, but God told me over 20 years ago "in your later years." His word says if we delight ourself in him he will give us the desires of our heart. I say today, if I had not known the pain I would not know the Comforter. "Grace is given where it's needed." If I had not known any need I would not have known such Grace. I have literally felt many times the presence of this Spirit that Jesus said was coming after Him so that we would not be alone. Recenlty another Nurse came on who I went to school with. She got her RN and I didn't. She seemed to hate me and I had no idea why...I never even disliked her. She made 3 differrent attempts to get me fired. Instead of hating her or trying to fight in my own power, even though I felt hurt and tired of so much and like just leaving, I prayed (while I was hurt and thinking to just find another job)....I wanted to but my conscience told me this......Remember kim...you prayed awhile back for God to protect you in this job while doing school...so am I going to have faith or just walk away? within days I saw God's Word happen...a Word I have seen also happen before! I saw God make my enemies to be at peace with me. The girl has totally changed...now has a very kind and merciful attitude toward me...and I am good judge of people's secret hearts."He daily loads me with benefits!" "I look unto the hills from whence cometh my help!" I am on a road brother...Petra calls it the road to Zion. "No stumbling pilgrim in the dark, the road to Zion's in your heart."We go from faith to faith...and that has been my life...one trial and pain after another...burned by sin that I let in by temptation...I know how it burns today...and I know my Redeemer liveth! I didn't deserve anything...I have not been perfect ...but I have loved the Lord, and trusted him even when I felt...surely He's had enough of me! How many times can a person fall until he looses patience? Apparently 70x7 in a day. It has been far better to me to have known pain than not, to have seen how weak I am on my own than to have never seen how true that is....today after all this...and probably more to come...I am Full until sometimes I can contain it...I cry as I drive feeling so intensely how God is with me...I feel the sparkle in my eye and know that others see it and wonder....and I know some wonder how I am standing so well on this job when I have faced being almost stomped out so many times...But I am Not full of self pride...Oh no! I know what an enemy that is...but I try to keep my head down, except when God gives me a space to be bold...I keep my eye strait...so I don't fall to the left or right...because I know what I got in God and I know who wants to steal it...this Faith is a Prize! It's a greater chunk of gold than anything in this world....it can and does move mountains!And...it's power is Love! We cannot love our enemies in our own human power...yet God told us to Love them that persecute us and do all manner of evil against us. He "gives' the ability....He even "gives" the inward knowledge that...He is the Christ. "flesh and blood has not "Revealed" this to you Peter," he said....and what I know and possess today...man did not give or reveal....If you are sincere, then I will pray that God will make known to you the Reality of our lostness due to the power of sin...and also the offer of this "Great Salvation." "How shall we escape if we neglect so Great a Salvation?" Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...who IS Christ...who IS the Word of God manifested to us in the flesh..so we can see and handle and know that this Word is Living.Sir, God is real, and Jesus is real, and you are not alone, even when you may feel so...let's pray that God will give you eyes to see and ears to hear...and anyone who seeks Him and asks him sincerely He will in no wise cast out. You have no idea how he loves you...or...of what this love of God really feels like...but I so wish for you to know.....God spoke to Phil more than once in the past....once he said to him about me...."She is mine...." Try to imagine what hearing that feels like. I can't describe it. The prrof of His love in me is that I care to take time to try to help you........Siskim
 

kalixx

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Nov 19, 2007
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Hi Lastsecman, thanks for the post
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(lastsecman;35196)
Kalixx, if you want to have a personal relationship with God. You would have to believe in the salvation He had given you already.I am saying this because I had been through the same thing as you before, not knowing what a 'personal relationship' with God means. But when I simply believed in my salvation (no works need to be added to it), only then did I start to experience a personal relationship with God.To put it short, having a personal relationship with God is experiencing God's love towards you.
I understand what you are saying, and indeed I do believe in this salvation in theory because that is what the bible says. But as a mere human I cannot go further than believe in the sense of "assumption", in other words it is just as likely to be wrong as right, and I just assume the one that sounds best, i.e. salvation to be the truth....but I have no follow through like you have, no confirmation or personal revelation from God that my assumed believe is indeed correct and "welcome to the club."You say that you now have a "personal relationship", but you do not describe what that means, how it works, what happens, who speaks to who, etc. That is what I would like to hear from people who claim to have such a "personal relationship". For example, can you describe what you mean by "experience a personal relationship with God" and "having a personal relationship with God is experiencing God's love towards you". How do you experience these things?
 

kalixx

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Thanks once again Siskim for your detailed post and the effort you make in answering my question - thankyou
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You suggested:(Siskim;35207)
Do think perhaps you have more doubt than want, more question than belief, and more wonder than need? Jesus said he came for the sick, not those who were well, and I know he didn't mean he came for only some, because we've read that He doesn't wish for any to perish...is it possible sir that you (your heart) does not really feel a need for God, but more of only a wondering if there is really something real to it?
This is a very reasonable assumption, and one that many people I have approached also conclude. I.e. if I don't claim to have a "personal relationship" then the fault must be in me and in my lack of authenticity. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, but if it is then it means God has raised the threshold so high that I cannot reach it - but if a "personal relationship" depends on one first achieving a certain level of authenticity is this not a form of "work" or "achievement"? Is it not God rewarding the strong and ignoring the weak if he ignores those that do not have the ability to search for him with sufficient intensity?My search for God began from zero and jumped to a frenzied 100% overnight following the murder of my daughter some 8 yrs ago. There was nothing else to do except read the bible all day every day and pray, pray, pray. I left my job and worked for the church managing the cemetary and helping people suffering the same anguish and grief following the death of a loved one. I started prayer groups and ran bibleclasses. I work with other voluntary workers providing homes and care for drunks and dropouts who are so far gone that they only have death left to live for. I have supported charities concerned with spreading the bible, caring for children worldwide, and feeding the poverty-stricken parts of the world. And behind all this, I deal with the extreme effort of forgiving and the burden of personal sin that the bible showed me exists.All the time I have cried out that God would help me, that he would just respond enough to encourage me that I am on the right track, just a little flicker of hope and recognition, just a hint that the bible is true when it says knock and the door will be opened.It never did. Now I am exhausted, slowly giving up everything, and what little faith I had is sliding down the drain. Now my motivation is purely a humanitarian driven care for fellow human beings, my Christianity is made of cardboard, and my true suspicion is that this life is, in fact, all we really have - but I still keep playing the game. That was why I came here- to try to kick-start my faith back into gear - maybe, someday, one day. Or maybe some really ARE predestined for destruction........
 

lastsecman

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Kalixx, God's love of forgiving us on the cross is not hard to understand:God's love can only be felt by feeling His forgiveness for you no matter what you are, what you have done, or what you will do in the future (Doesn't mean intentional sins, but unintentional sins). Just like a loving parent who will love and forgive his child not because of what he had done or will do, but because of what he is. Because only love can make a person repent, laws would never be able to do that.
 

kalixx

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Hi Lastsecman,(lastsecman;35316)
Kalixx, God's love of forgiving us on the cross is not hard to understand:God's love can only be felt by feeling His forgiveness for you no matter what you are, what you have done, or what you will do in the future (Doesn't mean intentional sins, but unintentional sins). Just like a loving parent who will love and forgive his child not because of what he had done or will do, but because of what he is. Because only love can make a person repent, laws would never be able to do that.
I do appreciate very much what is written about God's forgiveness, but that is not really the point I am after.I accept what is written in the bible and understand perhaps much of it but not all. But what I would like to understand with this thread is what a "personal relationship" with Jesus means in practice. Many, many Christians throw this expression into their conversation and yet few try to explain it. People say "God told me this", "Jesus told me that", "Jesus lives in my heart", "I have a one on one relationship with Jesus", and so on. But do they really? Why then is it so hard to find someone who will talk about it? What is there that one feels/hears/understands inside that comes from outside oneself such that it can be called a "personal relationship". I think it is a myth.
 

Mighty Bear

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"For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."Romans 8:24-25 (ESV)"So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."1 Corinthians 13:13 (ESV)
 

waynemlj

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Hi Kalixx,I think that Siskim did an excellent job to give you a very detailed explanation of God's plan of Salvation through the sending of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to become a man and obey the Father always (no sin in Him, like there is in you and me) and to die a horrible death on that cross to pay for our sins. I'd like to add my reply to your search for a 'Personal Relationship' with Jesus.1) You first look at your life, at your soul, not your physical life. You know for SURE that you have thought, spoke, and done things that were wrong. There is a reason why all men do that! Adam, the first man God created, was our representative. He failed to obey God by taking Satan's word and placing it above God's Word. He sinned against God. That caused a terrible loss of spiritual relationship between Adam and God, and so between all men and God.2) If you see and admit the truth of this to God, you have the starting point for what you are seeking. If someone tells me, "You must be 'Saved' by Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and live in eternal happiness with God, my first question would be, "Saved from what?"I must have a clear answer to that before I can get interested in Jesus. The answer is 'Saved from God.' That means Saved from God's Holy wrath (terrible anger and hatred of Sin)!3) God is Just. He MUST punish that disobedience we are all guilty of. He will not sweep it under a rug and forgive us by pretending it never occurred. SO, He made a Covenant with Jesus, His Son, before the world was even created to send Jesus to be born of a virgin (Mary) BUT NOT OF A HUMAN FATHER! Jesus is the only man after Adam who was born by The Holy Spirit (the third person of God)! That's important because that means Jesus did NOT inherit that darkened spiritual condition of separation from God that all mankind is born with. 4) Jesus was always sinless in His thoughts, words, and deeds. He was, therefore, a fitting representative for you and me (and all mankind) before God the Father. Our NEW representative could take all our sins upon Himself on that cross at Calvary because He was worthy to offer Himself to God IN OUR PLACE. That sacrifice takes away sin from ALL who will believe that Truth. AND that sacrifice transfers to believers Christ's righteousness as if it were our own -- as if WE HAD NEVER SINNED. The punishment went to Jesus Christ; the wrath of God's justice is satisfied and the believer goes free and receives Eternal life through Christ instead of Eternal Damnation (which we all deserve).5) Kalixx, a relationship with Jesus Christ is not a 'feeling.' It's an unbelievable sense that we have come to see of God's wonderful Love that He (both Father and Son) would go through all that in order to Save from the torments of Eternal Hell all who will simply believe that His Word is True -- every bit of it. Jesus said in John 5:24, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life."6) Ask God to forgive you, too, (as He has done for millions), for sinning against Him. Then, ask Him to take your soul to Himself through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Then, think of the Scripture above, and rest in that.God will give you an inner peace that you have never known. That's the relationship you desire. Be honest with Him -- naming to Him in prayer all the wrongs of your life that you are guilty of as you are able to recall them, and rest in His forgiveness. It's REAL!waynemlj(kalixx;35162)
Hi Siskim, and thanks for such a detailed response, I really appreciate the time you have given me. I'd like to make some points:This is what I find to be the horse and cart part because I have no mechanism for accepting the reality of God's Salvation unless I have experienced Him, but, as you say, without that acceptance there is no element with which to do this. This maybe is an example of the difference between faith and belief. Sure, I can believe that a wooden bridge is safe, but would I also have faith to risk my own life by walking over it. In the same way, I can believe in God and what the bible tells me that He is offering me, but I have no relationship that inspires the faith and trust that should accompany that belief. It remains an academic belief and not a conviction.But this is my point. I do not have any recognition of any external being living in my heart whatsoever. All that exists there are my own feelings and emotions for others. There is noone else with whom I can have a so-called relationship. But SO many Christians talk about their "personal relationship" - so what is it? how does it manifest itself? - or is it like the emperor's new clothes, that everyone thinks there should be one so they simply assume one?I ask, but I hear no voice. I am incapable of prayer. Praying for me has always been akin to talking on a cell-phone knowing that the battery is dead. There is noone on the other end. So why does the bible report Jesus saying that he will come in whenever someone opens the door/will open the door whenever someone knocks? I have done both, but I have no personal relationship?I understand the theory, and I have tried to believe with the meagre strength I have. However, as I understand it, faith is a gift of God. If God is such a loving Father, why is His love and presence so illusive? What does it mean to "know" God? I know nothing more about Him than what I have read.Well, that is what I really do want to know: What does "Christ in you" really mean and feel like if it really is a personal relationship and not just dry belief.As I mentioned earlier, prayer does not work for me. It feels false and my concentration lasts about 10 secs. I sit in church praying with the congregation and my mind is wandering around work matters, decorating, kids, just about anything other than what we are communally praying for. So could you tell me more specifically what you mean by "He will show up right inside you" - I would really like to know.My Christian faith is purely technical belief without conviction or personal faith based on anything personally experienced. And I am sure that it is purely the result of being born in a Christian country. If I were raised in a muslim country, I am sure that I would be a muslim. There must be more to it than this......Sincere thanks to you once again, friend
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kalixx

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(Mighty Bear;35468)
"For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."Romans 8:24-25 (ESV)"So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."1 Corinthians 13:13 (ESV)
Hi MB, these are indeed superb verses, but again, they do not explain what a "personal relationship with Jesus" actually is. Hope, in the sense of faith and belief, is perhaps, the major component of Christianity, but it exists even without a "personal relationship".Also love is perhaps the most noble of emotions, and to love God is the most noble act of love possible for a human - but it does not explain a "personal relationship" in the interactive sense that so many people claim.
 

kalixx

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Hi again waynemlj
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great post, thanks!(waynemlj;35490)
I think that Siskim did an excellent job to give you a very detailed explanation of God's plan of Salvation through the sending of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to become a man and obey the Father always (no sin in Him, like there is in you and me) and to die a horrible death on that cross to pay for our sins.
So do I. But that was not the issue here.
1) You first look at your life, at your soul, not your physical life. You know for SURE that you have thought, spoke, and done things that were wrong. There is a reason why all men do that! Adam, the first man God created, was our representative. He failed to obey God by taking Satan's word and placing it above God's Word. He sinned against God. That caused a terrible loss of spiritual relationship between Adam and God, and so between all men and God.
Yes, I have fully accepted that. It is what I prefer to call my "self- centredness" instead of "God-centredness". And I understand that it is the reason for the gap between us and God. However, I don't accept that sin is a "fault" in us that God did not intend because that means God made us faulty. But he didn't, he made precisely how he wanted us to be, i.e. capable of sin. But if that is the case, then there is a purpose in sin. And if there is a purpose then God is going to teach it to us - which means there is a need for interactive communication with God, i.e. the "personal relationship". I don't have one, but I want one!
2) If you see and admit the truth of this to God, you have the starting point for what you are seeking. If someone tells me, "You must be 'Saved' by Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and live in eternal happiness with God, my first question would be, "Saved from what?"I must have a clear answer to that before I can get interested in Jesus. The answer is 'Saved from God.' That means Saved from God's Holy wrath (terrible anger and hatred of Sin)!
OK. I have always accepted that faith in Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith because the bible says so. But I also understand that faith itself is a gift from God and not our own personal decision. I have the belief because I read it in the Bible, but I do not have the conviction of faith because I do not have the confirmation from a "personal realtionship" with Jesus!
3) God is Just. He MUST punish that disobedience we are all guilty of. He will not sweep it under a rug and forgive us by pretending it never occurred. SO, He made a Covenant with Jesus, His Son, before the world was even created to send Jesus to be born of a virgin (Mary) BUT NOT OF A HUMAN FATHER! Jesus is the only man after Adam who was born by The Holy Spirit (the third person of God)! That's important because that means Jesus did NOT inherit that darkened spiritual condition of separation from God that all mankind is born with.
This is an interesting issue in its own right. I have often pondered WHY God HAS to punish. He teaches us to be able to forgive - forgiveness does NOT demand punishment. So why couldn't God have simply forgiven without punishment? However, that is another issue...let's not complicate things
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4) Jesus was always sinless in His thoughts, words, and deeds. He was, therefore, a fitting representative for you and me (and all mankind) before God the Father. Our NEW representative could take all our sins upon Himself on that cross at Calvary because He was worthy to offer Himself to God IN OUR PLACE. That sacrifice takes away sin from ALL who will believe that Truth. AND that sacrifice transfers to believers Christ's righteousness as if it were our own -- as if WE HAD NEVER SINNED. The punishment went to Jesus Christ; the wrath of God's justice is satisfied and the believer goes free and receives Eternal life through Christ instead of Eternal Damnation (which we all deserve).
Agree again, but this is still not the issue! I accept the value of Christ's sacrifice. However, as yet another side issue, I have often wondered how this works. I mean, OK, his death paid the price of our sin, but it doesn't make me a non-sinner. Something else must happen at some stage that we also become sin-free. Heaven (or rather the New Earth?) is not a place of sinners who are constantly forgiven, it is sin-free - but I am still left without a "personal relationship" here!!!
5) Kalixx, a relationship with Jesus Christ is not a 'feeling.' It's an unbelievable sense that we have come to see of God's wonderful Love that He (both Father and Son) would go through all that in order to Save from the torments of Eternal Hell all who will simply believe that His Word is True -- every bit of it.
OK!!!!! So here we go! We are getting closer to the point here
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You say that there is no feeling involved. OK, that sounds credible to be - and I accept that faith has to be "live" in the sense that one truly believes in all that we have talked about above. But what does it mean to you when people say they have Jesus in their heart? Is this nothing more than this live personal faith in an external God, or do you believe there is a presense there that is not part of you, or driven by you?
6) Ask God to forgive you, too, (as He has done for millions), for sinning against Him. Then, ask Him to take your soul to Himself through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Then, think of the Scripture above, and rest in that. God will give you an inner peace that you have never known. That's the relationship you desire. Be honest with Him -- naming to Him in prayer all the wrongs of your life that you are guilty of as you are able to recall them, and rest in His forgiveness. It's REAL!
Hmmm, this takes us back to the beginning. I have done that more than I could describe in words. I have been through this process many times with my wife and have encouraged and helped others do the same. My wife has a relationship and thepeace you describe, others have found the same. I have not!!! I have an empty space and a restless heart that cannot find peace in anything!Actually, your reply was very encouraging. I am not ashamed to say that my faith is actually kept alive more from the testimony of others than from my own experience. Without the consistent testimony of people like you I would have dropped God a long time back. Now I just echo those famous words in Mark's gospel: Mk 9:24
 

waynemlj

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Hi Kalixx,it looks like you understand the Gospel.There is one more very, very important aspect to our salvaton experience.Even after we believe (are born again), we are not instantly made perfect, made sinless. Sin still exists in us.However, the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Father's first gift to those who believe. That means the Spirit of God comes inside us to dwell there forever. He is the One who lives the Christian life in and through us. We still can't do it on our own. Not at all. Therefore, yielding yourself to Him is essential. The Holy Spirit is actually the Spirit of Jesus within us.Read carefully John 14:16-21Last point: Make a distinction between Justification (being forgiven the instant you believe) and Sanctification which is a process that goes on throughout our lifetime. The Holy Spirit (Jesus in us) is working constantly to show you and me where we are still sinful and aiding us to give up that sin that he points out, and then later on another sin is pointed out in our conscience by the Holy Spirit, and that is the process of our sanctification.When you and I reach the moment of death and pass through it, the final change will be made "in the twinkling of an eye," as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."That's the moment of sinlessness you're looking for. You'll have to work out your sanctification by yielding to the Holy Spirit as you live out your days, and change will come gradually until that final moment of death when there will be NO MORE SIN FOREVER! PRAISE BE TO GOD!So Justification is instantaneous.But Sanctification is a gradual process.waynemlj
 

kalixx

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(waynemlj;35527)
However, the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Father's first gift to those who believe. That means the Spirit of God comes inside us to dwell there forever. He is the One who lives the Christian life in and through us. We still can't do it on our own. Not at all. Therefore, yielding yourself to Him is essential. The Holy Spirit is actually the Spirit of Jesus within us.
This is really only stating again the essence of the problem here. Talking about the "Spirit of God dwelling inside us" and the "Spirit of Jesus within us" is all very well and all very theoretical, but if one does not have it, or feel it, then it is nothing more that rhetorical repetition of the bible. It is meaningless to me because I do not have it. There is nothing in me other than my own thoughts, beliefs and conscience (which atheists also have, so please don't say that conscience IS the Spirit
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!).Actually, I could expand the same theme here and say that I do not believe that sins are forgiven daily, only after death. I believe a whole lot of Christian claims such as "personal relationship" "Spirits moving us" and "sins forgiven" are actually only feel-good factors that help people relieve their consciences and carry on being as bad as ever! In the same light, people often claim that dead loved ones become angels, all dead babies go to heaven, people saved from near-disasters have a guardian angel (what about those that didn't escape?), and so on. In many ways, Christianity becomes a big aspirin that numbs the pain of life, puts hope where there isn't much, excuses us for not doing for others what we should do, and provides a means of avoiding the reality and finality of death.
When you and I reach the moment of death and pass through it, the final change will be made "in the twinkling of an eye," as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." That's the moment of sinlessness you're looking for.
Personally, I think this verse is only talking about how the perishable physical body becomes the imperishable resurrection body. I am not so sure it is also saying that we automatically also then become sinless - but maybe. I haven't found anything else in the bible to explain when, so let it be so
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Thanks again for your post. I hope I don't sound too rough in my responses, but I detest the fairytale world of make-believe Christianity with its marshmallow superdaddy who just sits there forgiving everyone - he is the same God who arranged for all the 2 year-olds and under to be massacred in Bethlehem without any explanation to the parents (do you know why he did that? I don't, he could have just as easily told the wise men to avoid Herod on the way to Jesus and not just on the way back?).