If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?

bbyrd009 said:

sure, and i can't dispute the pov; Paul even seems to be encouraging it, i would say. But i suspect now that just like at many other concepts, "Judge righteous judgement," (who told you that you were naked?) "Absent from the body," (seek to please God wherever, whenever), the...syntax will be constructed so as to allow ppl to interpret for themselves, to reflect where they are. So i don't mean to make that interp into an evil thing; i currently don't have a better one, myself, lol

1 Corinthians 9:24 Lexicon: Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

run in such a way that you may win? why not just say "Be sure you run the swiftest," or something similar? Imo more clues might be got in the two vv that bracket that one,

23Now I do all this because of the gospel, so I may become a partner in its benefits.
24Don't you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
25Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.

so, we got partners pre, and self-control post--v 25 doesn't even hardly flow with v24 at all, see; Paul does that a lot, i notice--along with a little...i dunno, DQ is what i am reading, of those who run races for "first place," see.

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We don't run against each other to win...we run against ourselves to win.
The 'winning' is Jesus Christ. We help each other along this road...
..when it says "one wins the prize"...the One is the corporate one..
One life, one faith, one baptism, one Body....
Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.."
The Head and the Body...one.

"ByGrace" said:

We don't run against each other to win...we run against ourselves to win.

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ideally, yes, but the passage can certainly be read the other way on the surface i guess?
The Bible as "plainly saying," iow lol, the same way most get to
"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" iow

amadeus said:

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests." Matt 22:9-10

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You know what? I recall you and @"ByGrace" talking about the Bride being distinct from the church at large when I first got here, and while I've never interpreted this parable before, I think it proves your case! Btw, weird reading through a thread with old members who are not here anymore.

Ok, let me post the parable and then I'll give what I think is the proper interpretation:

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, 'Tell them which are bidden, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage."' 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, 'Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

First the easy stuff:
King = God
Jesus = Son
Wedding = Marriage supper of the Lamb
Servants = The apostles
Those who would not come to the wedding = Unbelieving Jews
Those who killed the servants = The leadership of Israel, who killed the apostles
Burning down of their city = The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Servants in v.8 = Church leadership after 70 A.D.
Highways = Literally, travel routes preach the gospel to the world, i.e. the Gentile nations

Now the tricky stuff:
- "Both good and bad" = You would have to know about the influence of Gnosticism in early church here, but they were a group of heretics who identified as "Christians" when in fact they despised the God of the Old Testament, and while proclaiming to believe in "Christ" actually worshipped and served demons instead.
- "Wedding garment" = These "Christians" were not clothed in the Holy Spirit, which was one of the distinguishing characteristics the NT writers said set them apart from true believers. As Jude said in describing them, "These men are soulish, not having the Spirit. But you dearly beloved, building yourselves up upon your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God." (Jude 1:19-20a). Again, these people prophesied and performed exorcisms through the power of demonic spirits (Matthew 7:22), but did not have the Holy Spirit, hence they would be cast into Hell, where there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
- "Many called, but few chosen" = All of Israel was called, then the entire world was called. But only those who adorned themselves in the wedding garments (i.e. the Holy Spirit) were, and will be chosen.

And now for the answer to your OP:
- The bride is New Jerusalem, i.e. those who will be granted places of leadership in the coming kingdom of God. Not everyone will be made kings when Christ sets up His kingdom, either in Heaven OR on earth. If everyone in the kingdom were made a king, there would be no one left to rule over. But those positions are reserved for the ones who walk worthy of them (see Matthew 20:21-23). Notice when it talks about the Bride coming down from Heaven, it is in reference to the New Jerusalem, or in other words, the kingdom or government of God. "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2). The bride will consist of those who walked worthy enough (mostly by enduring the greatest sufferings and making the greatest sacrifices) to reign as kings with Him in the coming kingdom, whereas the guests will be all who truly believed the gospel, yet did not walk worthy of the same positions as the bride will.

Let me know if you have any questions. I'd be glad to discuss it with you : )
Chris

Hidden In Him said:

Not everyone will be made kings when Christ sets up His kingdom, either in Heaven OR on earth.

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That is incorrect. Here are a couple of passages which refute that idea.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (1 Pet 2:9)
This is addressed to all Christians who have been elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet 1:2). Peter was addressing ALL the "strangers" scattered throughout that region -- primarily Hebrew Christians, but he is DEFINITELY NOT addressing only some (as you are suggesting).

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5,6)
This is even broader and includes ALL WHO HAVE BEEN WASHED FROM THEIR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD. So there goes your theory about only a select group being made kings.

If everyone in the kingdom were made a king, there would be no one left to rule over.

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You seem to have a limited concept of the Kingdom of God in eternity. This entire earth will be peopled with the saved nations surrounding redeemed and restored Israel. And that is only on this planet. We do not even know about all the other planets which will be inhabited, but we do know that God made "the worlds" (plural) when He created (Heb 11:3).

So let's not start putting limitations of things which God has not limited.

Enoch111 said:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (1 Pet 2:9)
This is addressed to all Christians who have been elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet 1:2). Peter was addressing ALL the "strangers" scattered throughout that region -- primarily Hebrew Christians, but he is DEFINITELY NOT addressing only some (as you are suggesting).

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"You are a royal priesthood, a holy nation..." Just as with Israel, so in the coming kingdom. All will be a holy nation, but some will be a royal priesthood. Was every Israelite was a priest, Enoch? Was every Israelite was a king?

Enoch111 said:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5,6)

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Same answer. You are reading "us" as "every one of us" here because the preceding clause is all-inclusive, but "hath made us kings and priests" is not. He made "them" a royal priesthood and a holy nation. You're throwing out common sense, and it's throwing your interpretation off.

A king has rank. Do you think there will be differences in rank in the coming kingdom, or do you believe everyone will be rewarded equally?

amadeus said:

Don't forget the ark of Noah. It had three levels with the unclean beast at the bottom, the clean beasts in the middle and men at the top. All of them were saved from the flood waters, there were definite differences.

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This is interesting about the three levels of the ark.

I have hearda man say there are 4 destinies and he tied in the 4 rivers that flowed out from the garden of Eden and also he tied it with the verse in Rev. about...the wicked, filthy, righteous, holy.

The ark would tie into his thoughts as : 3 levels on the ark and 1 other place - completely outside the ark. So, 4 destinies.

[

stunnedbygrace said:

This is interesting about the three levels of the ark.

I have hearda man say there are 4 destinies and he tied in the 4 rivers that flowed out from the garden of Eden and also he tied it with the verse in Rev. about...the wicked, filthy, righteous, holy.

The ark would tie into his thoughts as : 3 levels on the ark and 1 other place - completely outside the ark. So, 4 destinies.

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Another thing comes to mind. The apostle who said he was taken to the third heaven. So, three levels plus a place outside of heaven, So 4 destinies.

Job said:

Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Matthew 22
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”



The guests are the "chosen".

o

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Chosen is the word!
Not only from lthe good", but from "the bad" also.
See Mat. 5:19. Both the "least" and "great" "ARE IN" the KoG TOGETHER.
And the catalyst for that, is the Equalizer who is Jesus. Mat. 5:20.
.
Remember: no one is "good" except the Father (His Holy Spirit).
Therefore except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the KoG. John 3:3-8; Rom. 8:9

stunnedbygrace said:

[


Another thing comes to mind. The apostle who said he was taken to the third heaven. So, three levels plus a place outside of heaven, So 4 destinies.

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Scripture please

Earburner said:

Scripture please

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I don't know where it is but it was Paul who said it, that he was taken to the 3rd heaven. You could Google it And find the verse. And also, in the beginning, God created the heavens (plural).

Hidden In Him said:

If everyone in the kingdom were made a king, there would be no one left to rule over.

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Hi Chris,

Are you saying then that some of the redeemed will rule over others of the redeemed? That some of us here, today, born again, will rule over others, here today, born again?

Much love!
Mark

marks said:

Hi Chris,

Are you saying then that some of the redeemed will rule over others of the redeemed? That some of us here, today, born again, will rule over others, here today, born again?

Much love!
Mark

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No, LoL. Although some clearly attempt it in this life. I've known a few such abusers of the church personally. But I was talking about the kingdom to come, and the expression "rule over" can be a little misleading when it comes to this, as per the passage I cited in Matthew 20:

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:24-28).

Again, Jesus was saying this in reference to those who would be counted worthy to sit on His right and left in the coming kingdom, or in other words, have the highest seats of authority under Him in eternity. But knowing the disciples were thinking about this question from worldly and self-serving perspective, His response was to inform them that in His future kingdom, those with the greatest authority would serve others the most.

Hidden In Him said:

No, LoL. Although some clearly attempt it in this life. I've known a few such abusers of the church personally. But I was talking about the kingdom to come, and the expression "rule over" can be a little misleading when it comes to this, as per the passage I cited in Matthew 20:

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:24-28).

Again, Jesus was saying this in reference to those who would be counted to sit on His right and left in the coming kingdom, or in other words, have the highest seats of authority under Him in eternity. But knowing the disciples were thinking about this question from worldly and self-serving perspective, His response was to inform them that those with the greatest authority in the kingdom would be those who served others the most.

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Over whom do you think these will have authority?

Much love!

Hidden In Him said:

No, LoL. Although some clearly attempt it in this life. I've known a few such abusers of the church personally. But I was talking about the kingdom to come, and the expression "rule over" can be a little misleading when it comes to this, as per the passage I cited in Matthew 20:

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I've come to know some who do seem to believe this, that they will rule over others of the church in the ages to come, by 'virtue' of their being 'more holy' in this life.

Much love!

marks said:

I've come to know some who do seem to believe this, that they will rule over others of the church in the ages to come, by 'virtue' of their being 'more holy' in this life.

Much love!

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If they are counted worthy it will be because they sacrificed the most for both God and others. Paul was an excellent example of this. He readily identified himself as a slave of God, and a servant to God's people.

God is a just judge, and He will not put anyone in power who is not truly worthy of it. Those who portray themselves as the most holy but are actually just seeking glory will receive the lowest places in the kingdom. As Jesus also taught:

9 Then the host who invited both of you will come and tell you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ And in humiliation, you will have to take the last place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the last place, so that your host will come and tell you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in front of everyone at the table with you. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”… (Luke 14:9-11)

Hidden In Him said:

If they are counted worthy it will be because they sacrificed the most for both God and others. Paul was an excellent example of this. He readily identified himself as a slave of God, and a servant to God's people.

God is a just judge, and He will not put anyone in power who is not truly worthy of it. Those who portray themselves as the most holy but are actually just seeking glory will receive the lowest places in the kingdom. As Jesus also taught:

9 Then the host who invited both of you will come and tell you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ And in humiliation, you will have to take the last place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the last place, so that your host will come and tell you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in front of everyone at the table with you. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”… (Luke 14:9-11)

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So then your not talking about authority over any, rather that the difference is a matter of honor?

Much love!
Mark

marks said:

Over whom do you think these will have authority?

Much love!

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Those I just mentioned in the previous post, as well as those who loved God and believed in Jesus, but did less with the gifts and opportunities they were given.

Hidden In Him said:

Those I just mentioned in the previous post, as well as those who loved God and believed in Jesus, but did less with the gifts and opportunities they were given.

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Ok, thank you for your patience with me!

So then you do think that some of the church will be in authority over others in the church, in the ages to come?

Much love!
Mark

marks said:

So then your not talking about authority over any, rather that the difference is a matter of honor?

Much love!
Mark

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No, I'm talking about authority in Christ; not just honor, but the ability to charge others in Christ based on their standing in the kingdom of God. But again, we are not talking about lording it over anyone. As Paul also taught (by example):

"But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children" (1 Thessalonians 2:7)
"As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children" (1 Thessalonians 2:11)
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" (2 Timothy 2:24)

Hidden In Him said:

No, I'm talking about authority in Christ; not just honor, but the ability to charge others in Christ based on their standing in the kingdom of God. But again, we are not talking about lording it over anyone. As Paul also taught (by example):

"But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children" (1 Thessalonians 2:7)
"As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children" (1 Thessalonians 2:11)
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" (2 Timothy 2:24)

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Ok, thank you for explaining your view to me on this.

For myself, what I understand from the Bible is that God is bringing us to unity in Him, and that we will not have rule over each other, in a 'lording over' sense or otherwise.

Much love!