Limited Atonement of Christ

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waynemlj

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(Alanforchrist;38425)
There is no such thing as "Limited atonement". When Jesus said, "Those who you gave me" is refering to Everyone who will believe on Jesus and receive the atonment. Then God gives them to Jesus.The "Election in Romans 9, Is talking about God chosing to bring his covenant in through the seed of Abraham, being Isaac, Galatians 3; 16, & 29.God chose a body, which consist of everyone who will believe in Christ. It is the body of Christ that was chosen, not the indervidual.God is no respecter of people, and to be a respecter of people is sin, If God choses one and not the other that maks Him a sinner. God wants everyone saved.1 Timothy 2:1--6, 1 John 2: 1--2.If anyone had the love of God burning in your soul for one second they will never say that choses one to salvation and reject someone else.John 3: 16-17,For God SO [An intense love] the world that he gave His only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life, for God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him [might] be saved.Notice the word [Might], Under the election teaching those who God choses will be saved and never lose their salvation. Yet this scripture alone ends that idea. "The world through Him [MIGHT] be saved.it didn't say they will be, it said, "They might be" the choice is ours.Also Matthew 25: 1--13 says some will not make it, Did God make the wrong choice, or did they have free will. It is for "the whosoever will " not the whosever God choses.
Hi Alan,Ephesians 2:1-10, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air . . . " and down to verse 5, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- ' You can read the rest down to verse 10.How can dead men choose?We did not choose Christ at all. That is unbiblical. God chose us!waynemlj
 

lilithb

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I believe that Jesus died for ALL anything else would take away from what he was and that is the problem with many churches and christianity. So many want to put Jesus in the box but he was far more than the box holds. God loves everyone the same and desires ALL to know him, not just a few.
 

waynemlj

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I believe that Jesus died for ALL anything else would take away from what he was and that is the problem with many churches and christianity. So many want to put Jesus in the box but he was far more than the box holds. God loves everyone the same and desires ALL to know him, not just a few.
Hi lilithb,John 10:2-4, "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him for they know his voice."These words of Jesus talk about an intimate relationship with his own people (sheep). The others in the sheep pen did not follow him, nor did He call them. That signifies that they were never His people (sheep). Clearly that is illustrated by the fact that many are going to hell for all eternity because they rejected Jesus Christ and God's plan of salvation.John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."We must not miss the intimacy Jesus reveals between Him and His own people (sheep), for he compares it to the intimacy that exists between the Father and Him.Then Jesus repeats that He lays down his life for those who are His sheep (chosen people). That's pretty clear that He does not lay down His life for anyone else, but only for His own. John 17:6-7, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."Clearly, Jesus makes a distinction here between those who he is dying for and those who he has no relationship to whatever (the rest of the world) . . . those who he is not dying for.Notice, too, that it was the Father who elected those to be saved by His Son's death.Conclusion: Jesus did not die for all men. He died only for the Elect. That's what is meant by limited atonement.waynemlj
 

waynemlj

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(Ek Pyros;35514)
That's not an accurate understanding of predestination. God saves some and gives justice to others. He is never unjust, and that is something you must not let slip from your mind.Indeed He is utterly graceful to those who will eventually enter hell--does He not control their death? Then why hasn't He killed them all instantly upon their very first sin? His wrath burns against seemingly (not SEEMINGLY) trivial manners, killing people in the OT in an instant. Why not all sinners? Because He LOVES His creation! God is indeed love.Here's the question I have for you: does these hypothetical people (let's say, Pharaoh, for instance) ever want to be saved? Has God somehow gone against their will? Does He harden Pharaoh's heart? Yes. Did He predestine Judas, Pilate, et al to do their deeds? Yes. But were any of those people ever willing against that path? No; and I say No confidently because the Bible says that man loves darkness rather than light, and there are none righteous. Man's strongest desire, until regeneration, is always apart from God.
Hi Ek Pyros,You are right about the Bible characters who did not want anything to do with God. Of course, according to many places in Scripture, we'd have to include you and me in that category also, wouldn't we?If Jesus intended (along with the Covenant with the Father) to die for all men and not just for the ELECT, then He failed in His goal! Did He not say that most are going to hell?1) Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."2) John 10:2-4, "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep (people) hear His voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep (people) follow him, for they know his voice." That states that the rest of the sheep in the pen were not chosen; they did not belong to Him at any time.**Emphasis in brackets is mine.3) John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."Here we see that it was the covenant plan between the Father and the Son that the Son would accomplish atonement (forgiveness for sin) by dying for the elect only. That means He died (achieved atonement) for only the elect. That's what limited atonement means.wayemlj
 

Wayne Murray

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Where do I start when I see so many fallacies.God's election were justified (judged) in the first earth age when they overcame Satan during his rebellion. The atonement they need is for their sins in the flesh.There is no limited atonement except for Satan and the fallen angels. They left their first habitation in this earth age. This means the reneged against their appointed time to tabernacle in flesh bodies.Before Christ paid the price, His sheep fold was limited, but after His crucifixion it was for whomsoever. He even went to the spirits in prison and preach (I Pet.3:19-20, I Pet.4:6).Christ now has many sheep folds.John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. I do not know who some of you are listening to, but they are leading you astray.If you do not understand the earth ages, then the only thing LIMITED is your understanding Scripture.I see someone quoted (Matt.7:13-14).Matt.7:13 Enter ye in at the strait (narrow) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The narrow gate (way) is two cherubims (mercy seat) with a flaming sword (God's Word) that leads to the tree of LIFE (Jesus Christ)..Gen.3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(waynemlj;38564)
(lilithb;38554)
I believe that Jesus died for ALL anything else would take away from what he was and that is the problem with many churches and christianity. So many want to put Jesus in the box but he was far more than the box holds. God loves everyone the same and desires ALL to know him, not just a few.
Hi lilithb,John 10:2-4, "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him for they know his voice."These words of Jesus talk about an intimate relationship with his own people (sheep). The others in the sheep pen did not follow him, nor did He call them. That signifies that they were never His people (sheep). Clearly that is illustrated by the fact that many are going to hell for all eternity because they rejected Jesus Christ and God's plan of salvation.John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."We must not miss the intimacy Jesus reveals between Him and His own people (sheep), for he compares it to the intimacy that exists between the Father and Him.Then Jesus repeats that He lays down his life for those who are His sheep (chosen people). That's pretty clear that He does not lay down His life for anyone else, but only for His own. John 17:6-7, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."Clearly, Jesus makes a distinction here between those who he is dying for and those who he has no relationship to whatever (the rest of the world) . . . those who he is not dying for.Notice, too, that it was the Father who elected those to be saved by His Son's death.Conclusion: Jesus did not die for all men. He died only for the Elect. That's what is meant by limited atonement.waynemljUm, no, Christ died for ALL men, John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

waynemlj

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Hi thesuperjag,You must be sure not to allow Satan to rob you of the tremedous joy of your salvation. Getting our theology right is a crucial part of that joy that penetrates to the depths of the heart.We are set free by that joy to glorify God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for God's glorious plan of salvation. That plan was made before the foundation of the world.The Father sent the Son to effect salvation, to satisfy the wrath of God against His Elect ( it's clearly stated throughout both the Old and New Testaments) so that the Father's Justice could be satisfied and His curse removed from the souls of His Elect.Jesus became a man in order to accomplish this intended purpose of God. As a man He was obedient to the Father in all things.Philippians 2:8, "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."We, who are the Elect of God by nothing we have done to deserve that mercy, need to understand how blessed we are. For Christ died only for the souls that the Father chose by His Sovereign Will, and when Jesus walked into the Holy of Holies in heaven after His resurrection, He did so with His own blood upon Him to present the names of all whom the Father gave Him (and only those names).Colossians 1:13, "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The "we" in that verse refers to all those the Father sent His Son to redeem out of the world, not for the entire human race. Jesus made that crystal clear in His High Priestly Prayer in John 17:7-9, "Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know the truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."Obviously, from the mouth of God, we have the truth that Jesus did NOT die for all men.waynemlj
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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Hi thesuperjag,You must be sure not to allow Satan to rob you of the tremedous joy of your salvation. Getting our theology right is a crucial part of that joy that penetrates to the depths of the heart.We are set free by that joy to glorify God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for God's glorious plan of salvation. That plan was made before the foundation of the world.The Father sent the Son to effect salvation, to satisfy the wrath of God against His Elect ( it's clearly stated throughout both the Old and New Testaments) so that the Father's Justice could be satisfied and His curse removed from the souls of His Elect.Jesus became a man in order to accomplish this intended purpose of God. As a man He was obedient to the Father in all things.Philippians 2:8, "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."We, who are the Elect of God by nothing we have done to deserve that mercy, need to understand how blessed we are. For Christ died only for the souls that the Father chose by His Sovereign Will, and when Jesus walked into the Holy of Holies in heaven after His resurrection, He did so with His own blood upon Him to present the names of all whom the Father gave Him (and only those names).Colossians 1:13, "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The "we" in that verse refers to all those the Father sent His Son to redeem out of the world, not for the entire human race. Jesus made that crystal clear in His High Priestly Prayer in John 17:7-9, "Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know the truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."Obviously, from the mouth of God, we have the truth that Jesus did NOT die for all men.waynemlj
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved....Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mark 2:17 - When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.THREE. Denotes completeness, as three lines complete a plane figure. Hence, three is significant of Divine perfection and completeness. The third day completes the fundamentals of creation-work. The fourth, fifth, and sixth days are the counterpart and repetition of the first, second, and third, and correspond respectively. (See the structure of Gen. 1, p. 3.) The number, three, includes resurrection also; for on the third day the earth rose up out of the deep, and the fruit rose up out of the earth....II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance....John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world....If Christ didn't die for all humankind, then the death of Christ is in vain. It is just a shame for people to believe the Word of God is in vain...In conclusion we see that ALL means ALL. ALL does not mean SOME.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

waynemlj

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Hi thesuperjag,A question for you to think about . . . Do you believe that the Father's Covenant with the Son to die for sinners could fail to achieve that which He purposed?If you agree that the answer is, "No," God's plan of salvation could not possibly fail, then you have a problem with your belief that Christ died for all men (which is what universal atonement means) because most men are going to Hell. That would clearly say that God's plan failed to achieve His purpose.If you answer that God's plan could fail to achieve that which He purposed, then your view of God is not the real God, wouldn't you say?I'm sure you believe that God is almighty and infinite in power and knowledge.But I'll let you Reply to those questions for yourself.I appreciate your desire to see all men saved; however, it isn't going to be that way, as Jesus clearly told us.waynemlj
 

Jordan

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Hi thesuperjag,A question for you to think about . . . Do you believe that the Father's Covenant with the Son to die for sinners could fail to achieve that which He purposed?If you agree that the answer is, "No, God's plan of salvation could not possibly fail, then you have a problem with your belief that Christ died for all men (which is what universal atonement means) because most men are going to Hell. That would clearly say that God's plan failed to achieve His purpose.If you answer that God's plan could fail to achieve that which He purposed, then your view of God is not the real God, wouldn't you say?I'm sure you believe that God is almighty and infinite in power and knowledge.But I'll let you Reply to those questions for yourself.I appreciate your desire to see all men saved; however, it isn't going to be that way, as Jesus clearly told us.waynemlj
And who are you to say that most men are going to Hell? I don't believe in Calvinist view. Obviously, no men on this planet can say who is who going to Hell. You have shown me that ALL does not mean ALL, but rather it means SOME people. It is God's Will for that no one should perish, but rather He wanted ALL people to repent and to be with Him.Ephesians 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.The problem is not God going to save them, as He promised them IF they follow Him. The problem is that men doesn't want to be saved by Christ, they wanted worldly prosessions that leads them to the death of a soul... the second death ... The Lake of Fire. (Reference: John 3:18, John 10:1) ... even though Christ died for ALL men. (II Peter 3:9)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world. (John 4:42, I John 4:14)
 

Wayne Murray

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Hi thesuperjag,A question for you to think about . . . Do you believe that the Father's Covenant with the Son to die for sinners could fail to achieve that which He purposed?If you agree that the answer is, "No, God's plan of salvation could not possibly fail, then you have a problem with your belief that Christ died for all men (which is what universal atonement means) because most men are going to Hell. That would clearly say that God's plan failed to achieve His purpose.If you answer that God's plan could fail to achieve that which He purposed, then your view of God is not the real God, wouldn't you say?I'm sure you believe that God is almighty and infinite in power and knowledge.But I'll let you Reply to those questions for yourself.I appreciate your desire to see all men saved; however, it isn't going to be that way, as Jesus clearly told us.waynemlj
Some kind of nonsense.God's plan failed because some choose death rather than life.Please, get real.2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Do you understand, not willing that any should perish ?????????????
 

waynemlj

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Hi Wayne,Well, it may appear to be nonsense, but since God's word clearly states His plan to save only the Elect, we have to read it all, and I've given you plenty of references to do that.Read them carefully. Read them prayerfully.And see what you think after you've done that.waynemlj
 

Wayne Murray

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but since God's word clearly states His plan to save only the Elect
That is a boldface lie, a fallacy, and not scriptural. Stop spreading lies!!Who in the world are you listening to, surely not God's Word.
 

Christina

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Where do I start when I see so many fallacies.God's election were justified (judged) in the first earth age when they overcame Satan during his rebellion. The atonement they need is for their sins in the flesh.There is no limited atonement except for Satan and the fallen angels. They left their first habitation in this earth age. This means the reneged against their appointed time to tabernacle in flesh bodies.Before Christ paid the price, His sheep fold was limited, but after His crucifixion it was for whomsoever. He even went to the spirits in prison and preach (I Pet.3:19-20, I Pet.4:6).Christ now has many sheep folds.John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. I do not know who some of you are listening to, but they are leading you astray.If you do not understand the earth ages, then the only thing LIMITED is your understanding Scripture.I see someone quoted (Matt.7:13-14).Matt.7:13 Enter ye in at the strait (narrow) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The narrow gate (way) is two cherubims (mercy seat) with a flaming sword (God's Word) that leads to the tree of LIFE (Jesus Christ)..Gen.3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Agree 100% Wayne this is exactly what scripture says
 

Christina

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Hi Wayne,Well, it may appear to be nonsense, but since God's word clearly states His plan to save only the Elect, we have to read it all, and I've given you plenty of references to do that.Read them carefully. Read them prayerfully.And see what you think after you've done that.waynemlj
This idea is more calvanistic view of scripture we have seen this many times it is flawed In my opinionmakes a Joke out of Gods plan if it were true there would be no need for this entire earth age it would just be a cruel Joke played by God as many of the Elect are already predestined the rest are just demoted to players in a Joke on mankind This is certainly not the message of the Bible.
 

stlizzy

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(Wayne Murray;38758)
Where do I start when I see so many fallacies.God's election were justified (judged) in the first earth age when they overcame Satan during his rebellion. The atonement they need is for their sins in the flesh.There is no limited atonement except for Satan and the fallen angels. They left their first habitation in this earth age. This means the reneged against their appointed time to tabernacle in flesh bodies.Before Christ paid the price, His sheep fold was limited, but after His crucifixion it was for whomsoever. He even went to the spirits in prison and preach (I Pet.3:19-20, I Pet.4:6).Christ now has many sheep folds.John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. I do not know who some of you are listening to, but they are leading you astray.If you do not understand the earth ages, then the only thing LIMITED is your understanding Scripture.I see someone quoted (Matt.7:13-14).Matt.7:13 Enter ye in at the strait (narrow) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The narrow gate (way) is two cherubims (mercy seat) with a flaming sword (God's Word) that leads to the tree of LIFE (Jesus Christ)..Gen.3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
This presupposes that there was such a thing as the first earth age... obviously...
 

Wayne Murray

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This presupposes that there was such a thing as the first earth age... obviously...
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. If you do not understand the earth ages, how are you going to understand many things in God's Word. For example Eph.1:4.Eph.1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: This word "foundation" is the Greek verb (katebole) which means (casting down or overthrow) of Satan's rebellion.Most good students of God's Word are quite aware of Satan's overthrow in the first earth age. It is the reason we are in this earth age to tabernacle in flesh bodies, so Satan can be defeated and give 1/3 of the sons of God, a choice of life or death.
 

waynemlj

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Hi thesuperjag,I did not say that most men are going to hell. Jesus did!Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."The "ALL" that you refer to regarding salvation means "ALL" the Elect of God. There is no such thing as Universal Atonement in the Bible. Jesus did not die for all men. Salvation (Justification) is for those whom the Father and the Son made a Covenant to save from before the world was founded.John 10:3-4, "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep (people) hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep (people) follow him, for they know his voice."Notice that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, does not lead the rest of the sheep out of the sheep pen . . . only those who belong to Him.That's Limited Atonement . . . Limited Justification . . . Limited Salvation.Read all of John Ch. 17, prayerfully. But note these verses specifically to see that he prays for and, therefore, dies for, only the Elect. John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."You can not possibly read the words of John 17 that I quoted to you above and believe that Jesus died for all men. He died only for the ones the Father gave Him.And that includes you and me, for it is obvious that you believe unto salvation, and I believe unto salvation.How thankful a heart ought we to have for God's election of us who deserved the condemnation of eternal darkness and torment, the same as the lost will receive.We need to, with joyful hearts, tell everyone in a loving and gentle way that there is Salvation in Jesus Christ and His Gospel!waynemlj
 

Jordan

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(waynemlj;39067)
Hi thesuperjag,I did not say that most men are going to hell. Jesus did!Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."The "ALL" that you refer to regarding salvation means "ALL" the Elect of God. There is no such thing as Universal Atonement in the Bible. Jesus did not die for all men. Salvation (Justification) is for those whom the Father and the Son made a Covenant to save from before the world was founded.John 10:3-4, "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep (people) hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep (people) follow him, for they know his voice."Notice that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, does not lead the rest of the sheep out of the sheep pen . . . only those who belong to Him.That's Limited Atonement . . . Limited Justification . . . Limited Salvation.Read all of John Ch. 17, prayerfully. But note these verses specifically to see that he prays for and, therefore, dies for, only the Elect. John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."You can not possibly read the words of John 17 that I quoted to you above and believe that Jesus died for all men. He died only for the ones the Father gave Him.And that includes you and me, for it is obvious that you believe unto salvation, and I believe unto salvation.How thankful a heart ought we to have for God's election of us who deserved the condemnation of eternal darkness and torment, the same as the lost will receive.We need to, with joyful hearts, tell everyone in a loving and gentle way that there is Salvation in Jesus Christ and His Gospel!waynemlj
There is no way I'm going to believe in this lie...This lie you speak of that God does not want ALL men to be saved, but rather only SOME people to be saved.You downgraded Lord Jesus Christ Words for the words of MEN.You downgraded His Death and make it meaningless. Not only you make it meaningless,you made God a liar and men are right... (Matthew 15:9)ALL men are LIARS (Psalm 116:11)You're blind and a fool.
 

waynemlj

New Member
Feb 8, 2008
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Hi Wayne,Using very large fonts in bold colors shows anger, rather than a gentle willingness to discuss. I only have one comment on your reply. Any of "what"? Of All men?Or any of All God's elect. The New Testament says any of God's elect, so you'll have to shout at God if you don't like His Word to you.waynemlj