Limited Atonement of Christ

(waynemlj;39067)
Hi thesuperjag,I did not say that most men are going to hell. Jesus did!Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."The "ALL" that you refer to regarding salvation means "ALL" the Elect of God. There is no such thing as Universal Atonement in the Bible. Jesus did not die for all men. Salvation (Justification) is for those whom the Father and the Son made a Covenant to save from before the world was founded.John 10:3-4, "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep (people) hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep (people) follow him, for they know his voice."Notice that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, does not lead the rest of the sheep out of the sheep pen . . . only those who belong to Him.That's Limited Atonement . . . Limited Justification . . . Limited Salvation.Read all of John Ch. 17, prayerfully. But note these verses specifically to see that he prays for and, therefore, dies for, only the Elect. John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."You can not possibly read the words of John 17 that I quoted to you above and believe that Jesus died for all men. He died only for the ones the Father gave Him.And that includes you and me, for it is obvious that you believe unto salvation, and I believe unto salvation.How thankful a heart ought we to have for God's election of us who deserved the condemnation of eternal darkness and torment, the same as the lost will receive.We need to, with joyful hearts, tell everyone in a loving and gentle way that there is Salvation in Jesus Christ and His Gospel!waynemlj
Stop spreading fallacy !!!Do you want to remain ignorant of the truth of God's Word????Check out the word "foundation".In most cases "foundation" is the Greek verb (katebole) and is referring to Satan's overthrow.This will shed so much light and the scales will fall from your eyes.I have reported you and will continue to report this fallacy.

(waynemlj;39074)
Hi Wayne,Using very large fonts in bold colors shows anger, rather than a gentle willingness to discuss. I only have one comment on your reply. Any of "what"? Of All men?Or any of All God's elect. The New Testament says any of God's elect, so you'll have to shout at God if you don't like His Word to you.waynemlj
Reported

Waynemlj,You commented briefly on this verse (16) from someone else’s post but did not finish the thought.Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The claim is that “world” here does not mean everyone, only the elect. Yet if we take that view, the second half the sentence makes no sense. By definition, the “elect” will not perish and at some point in this life will believe. So if world only refers to the elect the second half of the sentence is both redundant and illogical. There is no question of “whosoever” with the elect – they all will believe.I see another problem with an “elect” only view when we take just the next verse in context. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.“For God sent not his Son into the elect to condemn the elect; but that the elect through him might be saved.”If by definition the elect are the “world” that God loves from verse 16 and will be saved, why would anyone think that God sent his Son to condemn the elect? If that is the meaning of “world” in these verses, it would go without saying that the elect are not condemned. And BTW, the strictly orthodox Christian view as always held a belief in both an elect and predestination, just not with the same understanding you have of those terms.

(waynemlj;39265)
Hi Denver,"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'In your words above, I am most interested in "but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'If you check Peter's two epistles, you will note an interesting fact in his opening salutation in both 1 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 1. They are both addressed to the Elect and not to the world at large. That context changes the meaning of the phrase "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."Now, we see that Peter is talking about the Father not being willing that any of His Elect should perish and that he is not talking about "any" in the sense of "all men."If we interpret that phrase as "all men" we are in trouble. Obviously, you and I would agree that the Father's Will is efficacious.Isaiah 55:11, "so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;it shall not return to me empty,but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.'Must we not conclude, then, that the Father is not talking about the lost (all men) who will be banished in hell from His Presence forever? But, rather, He is talking about His chosen -- His Elect.The words "any," "all," "many," and "world" need to really be read in context, or their meaning can be totally misconstrued.What a study it is to get to know the Bible well and to get the true revelation of who God is according to His Word!waynemlj
You have shown us nothing, but only MEN... You have shown us that God's Truth means nothing, only MEN!

(waynemlj;39265)
Hi Denver,"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'In your words above, I am most interested in "but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'If you check Peter's two epistles, you will note an interesting fact in his opening salutation in both 1 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 1. They are both addressed to the Elect and not to the world at large. You are right, good point.That context changes the meaning of the phrase "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."You are wrong.Now, we see that Peter is talking about the Father not being willing that any of His Elect should perish and that he is not talking about "any" in the sense of "all men."You are wrong.If we interpret that phrase as "all men" we are in trouble. You are wrong.Must we not conclude, then, that the Father is not talking about the lost (all men) who will be banished in hell from His Presence forever? But, rather, He is talking about His chosen -- His Elect.The words "any," "all," "many," and "world" need to really be read in context, or their meaning can be totally misconstrued.What a study it is to get to know the Bible well and to get the true revelation of who God is according to His Word!waynemlj
You are wrong.I applaud you for your knowledge of scripture but you are lacking in understanding God's will and dispensations. The reason we tabernacle in the flesh is to defeat Satan, that is death. Before sons of God tabernacled in flesh, in the first earth age, Satan rebelled and 1/3 of the sons of God followed him. God could have destroyed Satan and his followers right then, the love of God could not, God had a plan of salvation. God destroyed that earth age. Now in this earth age all are born innocents (of the rebellion) through the womb. God Himself also tabernacled in the flesh to pay the price and defeat Satan, that is death. All now have a choice of life or death. The elect or God's election overcame Satan's rebellion in the first earth age. They are used of God in this earth age to cultivate and plant for the harvest of souls. They are firstfruits in Christ. All souls tabernacle in the flesh, every man in his own order. Satan and some fallen angels left their first habitation, they were not born through the womb, their appointed time. They will be judged accordingly. All other souls pass through this earth age in flesh bodies. Till Christ puts all rule and enemies down then God can be all in all. In other words the kingdom has become souls born of water and of the Spirit. Satan is defeated legally and righteously.1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

(waynemlj;39661)
Hi thesuperjag,Your words:"If Christ didn't die for all humankind, then the death of Christ is in vain. It is just a shame for people to believe the Word of God is in vain..."It is just the reverse to what you said above. If Christ's death was for ALL human kind, and most are going to hell, THEN we would have to say that His death was in vain.Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."Jesus was sent by the Father to die for the sheep that the Father gave Him.John 10:25-28, "Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.' "Those words of Jesus above are clear and precise. Only the elect are His sheep. Only the elect did He come to die to save. Only the elect does He give eternal life.The rest remain under the curse of God and are destined to the torment of eternal damnation, separated from the eternal Life of God.That's why it is so urgent that we tell everyone we can about God's marvelous plan of salvation in His Son, Jesus Christ!waynemlj
You are promoting fallacy and teaching lies.

(Wayne Murray;39666)
(waynemlj;39661)
Hi thesuperjag,Your words:"If Christ didn't die for all humankind, then the death of Christ is in vain. It is just a shame for people to believe the Word of God is in vain..."It is just the reverse to what you said above. If Christ's death was for ALL human kind, and most are going to hell, THEN we would have to say that His death was in vain.Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."Jesus was sent by the Father to die for the sheep that the Father gave Him.John 10:25-28, "Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.' "Those words of Jesus above are clear and precise. Only the elect are His sheep. Only the elect did He come to die to save. Only the elect does He give eternal life.The rest remain under the curse of God and are destined to the torment of eternal damnation, separated from the eternal Life of God.That's why it is so urgent that we tell everyone we can about God's marvelous plan of salvation in His Son, Jesus Christ!waynemlj
You are promoting fallacy and teaching lies.No kidding...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

If you believe on Him, you are saved.Would God ever reject someone who came to Him in truth?John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life."John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

(waynemlj;39773)
Hi thesuperjag,"Most men going to hell" from your reply does not mean God's plan failed unless you are insistent in believing what you want to believe instead of what God's Word has revealed. I can see why you want all men to be saved. I understand you thinking that. That would fit your picture of a God who is completely good and loving and kind and generous. And he is all of those things.1) However, that's not the total picture of the magnificent being of God which the Bible presents from Genesis to Revelation. He is also Holy . . . and cannot stand to even have to look at sin.2) God is infinitely Just . . . and cannot ignore the terrible disobedience of our minds against His. We are wrong and He is right.3) God is infinitely wise and all-knowing . . . we are finite creatures with puny minds and very little understanding of how BIG God is.4) God is infinitely powerful and His Will brings about exactly what He intends . . . always and without fail.There is a big difference between believing in God . . . and believing God.Here is one last quote that I hope will help you to see what God says, not what I say:John 10:25-28, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.' "Here Jesus makes a clear separation of those who He came to die for and those who He did not come to die for.He also gives God's own guarantee that those He saves will Remain His forever.waynemlj
More fallacies... Do you want to be in trouble with the Lord?The problem is NOT God saving people. It's men rejecting Christ... as men loves darkness. (Isaiah 5:20, John 3:19)Jag

You know this could be quite hard to determine by human eyes. If God did die for just an "elect" few, then who would they be? What kind of character would suffice? Why would he call someone like the woman at the well and say, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked Him and He would have given you living water." That sounds to me like it's a free gift to all. Also, look at the kind of person she was. She had had 5 husbands and was then living with a man. Why would he choose her? Then, look at the woman caught in adultery that they were getting ready to stone? Why would he say, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." She certainly wouldn't be up to par. Look at the demoniac that hung out in the tombs. He was certainly no prime candidate for saving from demon possession. People thought he was crazy!!! Jesus touched him and gave him a new story. Then we have the total opposite with Nichodemus and Joseph of Arimethea. Also, Zaccheus and Matthew, being tax collectors. Rahab, the harlot and a liar, was chosen. Yet Moses was called the most humble man on earth. There is no rhyme or reason to the so called "elect". I think there's a reason. In John Chapter 3, before and after verse 16, Jesus is saying it's a choice. He says that men love the darkness rather than the light. When He calls, we must decide, do we want to stay in the dark or come into His marvelous light. In Romans 1, scripture makes it clear that He reveals Himself, or calls, to everyone, but yet all do not come. Oh, be sure that His sacrifice was a once-for-all, sufficient one. It was lacking in nothing! He had the bloodline of the Father! Have you ever wondered how He could even die since God's blood was running through His veins? In the book, Chemistry of the Blood, it discusses how a child gets the blood type from the father. It's very interesting. I know that's another subject. I know Jesus willingly died, but that blood was precious. We should never dishonor Jesus by saying who we think it was for. I know there are verses in Hebrews that seem confusing, but in Chapter 10, verse 12, it says,"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever sat down at the right hand of God." I know if you read on it refers to "those that are being sanctified", but His blood could cover anyone. How can He cover or rather why would He cover someone when they don't choose Him? He is gentle and a gentleman. It is all part of our choice, even though He continues to call. Yes, God did and does harden people's hearts, but I think it is only after He has given them chance after chance to respond to the gospel. Also, in John 2:23,24,and 25, it says,"...many believed in His name when they saw the signs that He did, but Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew all men and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. He can't help but know us so intimately, for He made us and yes, He does know everything for He is God.

amenI agree with His By Grace

(waynemlj;39940)
Hi thesuperjag,My understanding of this Christian Message Board is that we are a congregation, as it were, who meet together occasionally to discuss the Bible and, specifically, the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His incredible work of Salvation.Those discussions we have with one another are precious opportunities to advance in the knowledge of God's revelation of Himself to us through His Word, which He commands us to do.That should always be done with kindness and patience, and with respect for one another, in brotherly love.When you use HUGE BOLD FONTS, that look like about size 30 fonts and the boldest blend of colors on top of all that, you are displaying anger and hatred, whether you realize it or not.When I see that kind of tone, I do not read what you have written!I dismiss it as coming from someone who has a weak argument -- in fact, no thoughtful position at all. It tells me you didn't read my response thoughtfully and prayerfully, at all!All my replies are Sripture based and Scripture referenced.When you shout back at me the way you did in your last reply, you are actually shouting at God, and are displaying a closed mind to the True Word of God.I'll will be happy to read your replies and to consider carefully how you view God's Word on a certain topic, but only if you can do that with normal font like everyone else does on this Board.Otherwise, I will not bother to read your replies.I will not accept being shouted at in a conversation.I trust that we can be gentle and respectful in any future discussions we have.Then, I will look forward to getting your replies as I do look forward to getting replies from all others on this board.waynemlj
Displaying hatred and anger? Yes I am... at what? You? Nay. Who then? Satan and his doctrines in which you are preaching fallacy for him. Wake up...I love you, but I hates lies with a passion. And I hate Satan with a passion.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

Wayne I sorry this calvinist veiw point of yours has been argued many times here you can preach till you blue in the face its still not true. There are Elect that were Predestined true The rest were given a free will to decide to Love the lord of their own free Will this is the message of the Bible God died only for the Elect is blashemy to Gods plan it makes a joke out of all God has done for his children so that they would chose to love and follow him. If your veiw was true there would be no need for us to be here except as entertainment for God. A God that did not send his son to die for all is not the God of the Bible this view is not from the bible its a religion of men started by John Calvin Please stop trying to preach you religion we ask Catholics, and pentcoastels and others to restarain as much as possable I ask the same of you.thanks

Im not trying to put down your religion but this is a Christain Bible study site so examining scripture against your veiw is acceptable Bible vs Calvinism TOTAL INABILITY (Calvinism teaches the inability of man to choose Truth, but the Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth):Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls." Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith):1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind):Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."