Actually Kriss isn't the first T is total depravity, which is why Calvin says man is totally inable - perhaps your polite way of saying the same thing.To me the horror of seeing the unborn as totally evil beings, the complete absence of good, equating them with Satan is perhaps the most revolting aspect of Calvinism.
Limited Atonement of Christ
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You may be right on the first T I wasnt nessarily posting the tulip just a rebuttal to the doctrine and I agree with you 100% about babies a sicking doctrine for sure
Hi DrBubbaLove.I know what you mean about not wanting to see an infant as a sinful being. However, when do we start being human? At the time of conception actually, and certainly it's obvious once were born. We inherit Adam's Fallen nature for sure, but God is merciful. Look at you and me. We have been saved by nothing we deserved. Just the grace -- the wondrous gift of God.That's why we need to be very eager to share our joy in the Good News with everyone we can because we don't know whether or not the next person we meet is one that God wants us to share the Gospel with.waynemlj
The Gospel is for everyone to hear, and anyone can accept Him into their hearts. Jesus told us to preach the gospel to every creature. If God didn't intend for someone to hear the gospel, why then did He become flesh and tell us to preach the gospel to every creature?I believe God wants us, those who have accepted Christ in their hearts, to preach the Good News to everyone, even if they may not seem to want to hear it, that they may repent of their sins and turn back to God. It isn't God's fault if they don't want to accept the Gospel. I don't believe God would make any person hate Him. God is impartial, and He is a Righteous Judge. God does hate sin, but He also lavishes His forgiveness on those who truly accept Him.
(waynemlj;40273)
Hi DrBubbaLove.I know what you mean about not wanting to see an infant as a sinful being. However, when do we start being human? At the time of coneption actually, and certainly it's obvious once were born. We inherit Adam's Fallen nature for sure, but God is merciful. Look at you and me. We have been saved by nothing we deserved. Just the grace -- the wondrous gift of God.That's why we need to be very eager to share our joy in the Good News with everyone we can because we don't know whether or not the next person we meet is one that God wants us to share the Gospel with.waynemlj
WayneI repeat Wayne I sorry this calvinist veiw point of yours has been argued many times here you can preach till you blue in the face its still not true. There are Elect that were Predestined true The rest were given a free will to decide to Love the lord of their own free Will this is the message of the Bible God died only for the Elect is blashemy to Gods plan it makes a joke out of all God has done for his children so that they would chose to love and follow him. If your veiw was true there would be no need for us to be here except as entertainment for God. A God that did not send his son to die for all is not the God of the Bible this view is not from the bible its a religion of men started by John Calvin Please stop trying to preach you religion we ask Catholics, and pentcoastels and others to restarain as much as possable I ask the same of you.thanks
Hi DrBubbaLove.I know what you mean about not wanting to see an infant as a sinful being. However, when do we start being human? At the time of coneption actually, and certainly it's obvious once were born. We inherit Adam's Fallen nature for sure, but God is merciful. Look at you and me. We have been saved by nothing we deserved. Just the grace -- the wondrous gift of God.That's why we need to be very eager to share our joy in the Good News with everyone we can because we don't know whether or not the next person we meet is one that God wants us to share the Gospel with.waynemlj
WayneI repeat Wayne I sorry this calvinist veiw point of yours has been argued many times here you can preach till you blue in the face its still not true. There are Elect that were Predestined true The rest were given a free will to decide to Love the lord of their own free Will this is the message of the Bible God died only for the Elect is blashemy to Gods plan it makes a joke out of all God has done for his children so that they would chose to love and follow him. If your veiw was true there would be no need for us to be here except as entertainment for God. A God that did not send his son to die for all is not the God of the Bible this view is not from the bible its a religion of men started by John Calvin Please stop trying to preach you religion we ask Catholics, and pentcoastels and others to restarain as much as possable I ask the same of you.thanks
thanks, kriss
like I have said before, I'm not here to debate or judge anyone. I'm here to learn more about our Righteous Father, and His word. I believe that our Father opens His arms to those who truly seek Him, and want a relationship with Him. Because Scripture says:Lamentations 3:25 "The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him."and also says...."From there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deuteronomy 4:29)
(waynemlj;40273)
Hi DrBubbaLove.I know what you mean about not wanting to see an infant as a sinful being. However, when do we start being human? At the time of coneption actually, and certainly it's obvious once were born. We inherit Adam's Fallen nature for sure, but God is merciful. Look at you and me. We have been saved by nothing we deserved. Just the grace -- the wondrous gift of God.That's why we need to be very eager to share our joy in the Good News with everyone we can because we don't know whether or not the next person we meet is one that God wants us to share the Gospel with.waynemlj
Actually that is not what I said, nor is it your position. That little infant is a sinful being in God's eyes. We all are. However your position is not that every little infant is sinful in God's eyes, but that every little unborn infant is ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY EVIL, basically every unborn child is EQUAL TO SATAN. That is a very different position (and exteme) than just saying humans are sinful.
Hi DrBubbaLove.I know what you mean about not wanting to see an infant as a sinful being. However, when do we start being human? At the time of coneption actually, and certainly it's obvious once were born. We inherit Adam's Fallen nature for sure, but God is merciful. Look at you and me. We have been saved by nothing we deserved. Just the grace -- the wondrous gift of God.That's why we need to be very eager to share our joy in the Good News with everyone we can because we don't know whether or not the next person we meet is one that God wants us to share the Gospel with.waynemlj
Actually that is not what I said, nor is it your position. That little infant is a sinful being in God's eyes. We all are. However your position is not that every little infant is sinful in God's eyes, but that every little unborn infant is ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY EVIL, basically every unborn child is EQUAL TO SATAN. That is a very different position (and exteme) than just saying humans are sinful.
Hi Adam,I agree with you that believers have been commanded by our Savior to go out and teach the Gospel of salvation to everyone we can. We agree here.However, I'd like to comment on these words from your Post:"The Gospel is for everyone to hear, and anyone can accept Him into their hearts. Jesus told us to preach the gospel to every creature. If God didn't intend for someone to hear the gospel, why then did He become flesh and tell us to preach the gospel to every creature?"The phrase I highlighted is highly questionable according to the Bible. We learn in John 10:24-25, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.' "In the above reference Jesus reveals an important truth for us to see. Not everyone belongs to Him. He came to die for His own flock which the Father had given Him. Therefore, not everyone can accept Him into their hearts. We still are to put out the call and let God decide who will respond (by God's gift of faith) and who are not going to respond (because they were not given that gift of faith).The answer to your question about why did God tell us to preach the Gospel if He didn't intend everyone to "hear" it is that He is Sovereign Lord over all things. Some of His plans He has revealed to us, and others He has not because they are none of our business.We must also consider that Jesus made it very clear that more people will go to hell than to heaven -- Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.".I hope this helps to answer your question.waynemlj
Wayne this pure your own interpitation it is not at all what God meant nor is it what is said You have taken this out of context to prove your wrong pointHe was talking to NON Beliveing Jews Saducees/Pharasees (tares)John 10:24 "Then came the Jews round about Him, and said unto Him, "How long dost Thou make us to doubt: If Thou be the Christ, tell us plainly."Many of the Jews who did not belive knew what Jesus had been talking about, concerning Solomon's porch. That is the workplace where they entered the priesthood and got their foothold in the first place.John 10:25 "Jesus answered them, "I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me."Jesus told them that all the things that I have accomplished bear witness that they are My Fathers works. Jesus is telling them that if you really knew the Words of Moses and the Prophets, you would have known that these Works were prophesied long ago.John 10:26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you."Jesus identified them in John 8:44; "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."There have always been tares always will be until Christ returns it has nothing to do with your wrong opinon of only the few of the Elect predestined will be saved it is only saying some are tares and will not be No matter what they see they will not be convinced
Hi Kriss,First of all, I understand what you feel about Christ dying only for the Elect. It really requires us to not only believe in God, but to believe God.By the way, the doctrine of Limited Atonement is not Calvin's; it's the Bible's doctrine from Genesis 3 to Revelation 22.You say that it would be wrong to think that God would send His Son to die for only some.Consider what the Bible says (not me, not Calvin). Jesus came to die for those the Father gave to Him and only for those.Jesus came to die for His Church -- the Bride of Christ. Jesus told the Pharisees that they didn't believe in Him because they were not of His flock --John 10:24-26.Jesus, throughout His High Priestly Prayer in John 17, made it abundantly clear that He lost none of those the Father had given to Him to die for. Jesus said in that same prayer in John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know the truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them.I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, for they are yours.".That's God's word. You either believe it or you don't.I don't know how the point of Limited Atonement could be made any clearer than from the lips of Jesus, Himself.waynemlj
Well then its not me with the problem its your limited veiw and lack to understand the Nature of God and his plan I really dont care what you call it ITS CALVANISM another false doctrine of men its not biblical except in your mind and others who believe it Ive seen this a hundred times before You will never convince any good bible student of this ridicouls theology of yours its a lie. It mocks God makes a Joke of his Word and his plan I frankly find the whole doctrine insulting and for little narrow mind men that want to feel speacial because they cant except God is for All its a doctrine for men with Ego problemsThe ones who come to Jesus He “will in no way cast out” (John 6:37). Learn to live with it
God would not have even one of his sheep, children (meaning all his children)lost thats God not your arrogant self important doctrine of menIf you had any clue to the first earth age and Gods plan and who you were you would know better
Wayne--I see your point in your post, friend.but may I ask another question?You stated that Christ died for those whom the Father had given Him. And you also stated that not everyone will receive the gift of faith. If Christ only died for some people, why did He only die for those "some people"? What I mean is, what do you believe it was about those people that made God choose them only? Do you think that the people of the Elect are God's "favorites"? And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour? Apart from my questions for you, I'd like to thank you, and the rest of you, for not judging me because I am fifteen years old. I'm afraid that most people would have said "You're too young to understand the LORD."thank you, and may the Righteous Father bless you abundantly
Jesus died for everybody. We need to understand what it takes to be a Christian. It doesn't take becoming a religious person. What it takes to become a Christian is to be born again. Everyone is born into this world with sin in our lives. We are born as a sinner. Adam's sin made us all sinners when we were born into this earth. That is why Jesus said you must be born again.So to be born again means when you accept Jesus Christ died for your sins and risen from the dead you are saved. You may have grown up Muslim, Catholic, Presbyterian, atheist or no religion at all. But if you receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior it doesn't matter how you grew up.What matters is that you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead. That is what saves us. Jesus makes his gift of salvation available to anybody. You can't be born into Christianity; you need to be born again. You need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.
Hi Kriss,If you want to debate Scripture with me and other members of this Christian Message Board that is great! That's what I believe we are all here for . . . to learn by searching the Scriptures and coming back to the other person with our proof of our point and being willing to accept the other's Reply as long as it's backed by Scripture.This way we will all be deepened in the knowledge and understanding of God's Word.When you start name-calling, and insulting your brothers and sisters, you are no longer acting in a Christian spirit. I hope you understand that we are all brothers and sisters who have been commanded by Our Lord to "love one another."1 John 4:20-21, "If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."Calvin did not invent anything new, except that he expressed the reality of God's revelation in the Bible with a rather new term.The truth of it is not new, though. Limited Atonement simply means that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to die for the sins of those the Father had Predestined (elected) to be saved . . . to be Christ's Church.Those, and only those, are the ones Christ made atonement for. Therefore, atonement cannot possibly be universal, but, by intent, limited.If you honestly believe that Christ's death was not limited to save only those the Father gave Him, then you must also conclude that He died for ALL men. Now, you have a problem! You are going to have to explain to your own mind and to me and all other readers on the Board why multitludes of people are going to hell for all eternity. Aren't you saying by that viewpoint that Jesus failed in His glorious work of salvation?If you want to talk about blasphemy, that's where I see it rearing its head, for sure!I've done my best to explain what God's word says.You have to dig into the Bible and study and search and compare Scripture with Scripture to satisfy yourself on the matter.I am very willing to interact with you in a loving and Scripture-based manner any time at all.I know that I, too, am learning all the time. waynemlj
Jon-Marc
New Member
Personally, I cannot believe in a god who rejects people without giving them a chance to repent. Such a god as that is not loving. Notice I used a small "g" since that is not the God I love and serve and Who saved me. It also prevents anyone from knowing positively without doubts that they are of the "chosen few". I would always be wondering and doubting--fearful that I was not one of those "worthy" of God's love. The thing is that NO one is worthy. It is all by God's grace. Also, If salvation is only for a certain few, why did God say in Romans 10:13 that "WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? It doesn't say" whosoever among the elect". I'm afraid some scriptures ARE being misinterpreted, and it's by those who believe in a bigoted god who rejects people without giving them a chance. I believe in a God Who loves EVERYONE and sent His Son to die for ALL, and to provide a way for ALL to be saved. Even though He knew that most would reject Him, He rejects NO one who comes to Him in repentance.
(Morning_Joy;40444)
Wayne--I see your point in your post, friend.but may I ask another question?You stated that Christ died for those whom the Father had given Him. And you also stated that not everyone will receive the gift of faith. If Christ only died for some people, why did He only die for those "some people"? What I mean is, what do you believe it was about those people that made God choose them only? Do you think that the people of the Elect are God's "favorites"? And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour? Apart from my questions for you, I'd like to thank you, and the rest of you, for not judging me because I am fifteen years old. I'm afraid that most people would have said "You're too young to understand the LORD."thank you, and may the Righteous Father bless you abundantly
______________________________________________Hi Adam,It's always nice to talk back and forth like this about God's Word. We both are made to think deeper and keep our attention on the other person's question . . . so important!Let me try your hardest question first: "If Christ only died for some people, why did He only die for those "some people"? What I mean is, what do you believe it was about those people that made God choose them only? Do you think that the people of the Elect are God's "favorites"?"There is some knowledge that God reveals to us in the Bible and just through nature, (things we see in the world and in the vastness of space), and also the knowledge of Him that He has put in the minds of all of us about Him.Romans 1:18-20, ". . .For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."So there we see that God has put a knowledge of himself within all of us. All this is revealed knowledge.Now, there is also what we call hidden knowledge. That's the infinite mind of God that we are too small as His creatures to know. We can't grasp the infinite completely.I said all of this to answer your question by saying I don't know why God elected (chose) certain people as His own that He would save from the eternal punishment of hell. We just have to rest in that position of reverence for His Infinite Goodness and Justice and Mercy. We aren't given that kind of knowledge.I have no idea why He saved you and me. I really don't. We deserved only hell for our sins and offenses against Him. But I sure am thankful, and we must devote our lives to the study of His Word and His great Person and merciful gift of faith to us that we may believe in Him!Your next question:"And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour?" Yes, I do believe that exactly! The reason I know that that is true is that the Bible says so in very many different ways.Jesus said to the Phaisees (who thought they were saved because they were descendents of Abraham) John 10:25-28, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe me. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock."In the above quote you can see that Jesus makes a sharp distinction between those who are His and those who are not His. Further, look at Jesus prayer to His Father at John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, for they are yours."That is pretty clear that the father has an Elect that He sent His Son to die for so that God could punish their sins (as they deserved) in Jesus on the cross. For you and me, whom the Father has given to Jesus, our sins are already paid for in full, can never be counted against us, and that is fixed for all eternity. Praise be to God for His mercy and love! That's why we should be eager to tell everyone we can about God's magnificent offer of salvation because you and I don't know who God has chosen. It might be some stranger you happen to talk to at a bus stop, etc.I hope you are encouraged in your faith by these words.waynemlj
Wayne--I see your point in your post, friend.but may I ask another question?You stated that Christ died for those whom the Father had given Him. And you also stated that not everyone will receive the gift of faith. If Christ only died for some people, why did He only die for those "some people"? What I mean is, what do you believe it was about those people that made God choose them only? Do you think that the people of the Elect are God's "favorites"? And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour? Apart from my questions for you, I'd like to thank you, and the rest of you, for not judging me because I am fifteen years old. I'm afraid that most people would have said "You're too young to understand the LORD."thank you, and may the Righteous Father bless you abundantly
______________________________________________Hi Adam,It's always nice to talk back and forth like this about God's Word. We both are made to think deeper and keep our attention on the other person's question . . . so important!Let me try your hardest question first: "If Christ only died for some people, why did He only die for those "some people"? What I mean is, what do you believe it was about those people that made God choose them only? Do you think that the people of the Elect are God's "favorites"?"There is some knowledge that God reveals to us in the Bible and just through nature, (things we see in the world and in the vastness of space), and also the knowledge of Him that He has put in the minds of all of us about Him.Romans 1:18-20, ". . .For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."So there we see that God has put a knowledge of himself within all of us. All this is revealed knowledge.Now, there is also what we call hidden knowledge. That's the infinite mind of God that we are too small as His creatures to know. We can't grasp the infinite completely.I said all of this to answer your question by saying I don't know why God elected (chose) certain people as His own that He would save from the eternal punishment of hell. We just have to rest in that position of reverence for His Infinite Goodness and Justice and Mercy. We aren't given that kind of knowledge.I have no idea why He saved you and me. I really don't. We deserved only hell for our sins and offenses against Him. But I sure am thankful, and we must devote our lives to the study of His Word and His great Person and merciful gift of faith to us that we may believe in Him!Your next question:"And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour?" Yes, I do believe that exactly! The reason I know that that is true is that the Bible says so in very many different ways.Jesus said to the Phaisees (who thought they were saved because they were descendents of Abraham) John 10:25-28, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe me. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock."In the above quote you can see that Jesus makes a sharp distinction between those who are His and those who are not His. Further, look at Jesus prayer to His Father at John 17:8-9, "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, for they are yours."That is pretty clear that the father has an Elect that He sent His Son to die for so that God could punish their sins (as they deserved) in Jesus on the cross. For you and me, whom the Father has given to Jesus, our sins are already paid for in full, can never be counted against us, and that is fixed for all eternity. Praise be to God for His mercy and love! That's why we should be eager to tell everyone we can about God's magnificent offer of salvation because you and I don't know who God has chosen. It might be some stranger you happen to talk to at a bus stop, etc.I hope you are encouraged in your faith by these words.waynemlj
{Quote}Your next question:"And along with that question, do you believe that everyone else is completely shut out from God and have no choice to choose and receive Christ as their personal Saviour?" Yes, I do believe that exactly! The reason I know that that is true is that the Bible says so in very many different ways.Jesus said to the Phaisees (who thought they were saved because they were descendents of Abraham){quote} No, they weren't they were they are the tares if you read history you will find that King Herod replaced the Jewish priest hood with outsiders who were never Jews but strangers that lived among them it was these strangers Kennites/tares that killed Jesus. It is the tares that wont be saved there are elect those chosen before this age, there are tares that do Satans Work, the rest have free Will stop making a Joke out of God if what you say was true we have no reason to be on this earth for God already decided who was saved so whats the point a side show? Stop messing with minds of young people with this false doctrine or you will be judgedmorning_joy do not believe this doctrine it is against scripture and we are not to even listen God warns us against it
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