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BreadOfLife

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That 'kecharitomene' speaks to Mary being sinless is not a linguistic fact.

Mary was certainly highly favoured, full of grace. Just not sinless.

Stranger
Wrong on BOTH counts.
It IS a linguistic fact - AND she was sinless.

"Kecharitomene" means: “Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”
This title indicates a completed action with permanent result.

Doesn't get much more linguistically real than that . . .
 

Stranger

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Zacharia and Elizabeths righteousness isn't described as "imputed" on account of their faith like Abraham, its imputed on account of their works, for keeping the mosaic laws. This is what Luke claims, and nowhere did Luke quote God as saying anything of the kind. As far as God is concerned, the only one that kept and fulfilled the law was Jesus.

There is nothing to indicate that righteousness is ever imputed on account of works. Nothing. God established imputed righteousness on the basis of faith with Abraham. Thus that is the only way it is ever imputed. Therefore, if Zacharias and Elisabeth are called righteous, it is the righteousness imputed to them on the basis of their faith.

Of course they operated under the law, as they were under the law at this time. But they still needed to have righteousness imputed to them on the basis of faith.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Mary gave birth to GOD incarnate.
She didn't simply give birth to a nature.

To believe this is to fall back into the Nestorian Heresy.
You absolutely have difficulties with the Trinity . . .

I have no problem with the Trinity.

Mary did not give birth to God. God existed before Mary. Didn't he?

Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Wrong on BOTH counts.
It IS a linguistic fact - AND she was sinless.

"Kecharitomene" means: “Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”
This title indicates a completed action with permanent result.

Doesn't get much more linguistically real than that . . .

Struggle as you may, you cannot make 'kecharitomene' mean sinless. And sinlessness of Mary was not required for her to be the chosen one to give birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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whose fault is it if one cannot see or hear properly - for those with proper hearing Isaiah at 48:8 states we are sinners from our mother's womb and the Church confirms this and explains how this does not apply to Jesus - twinc

What does that have to do with what I said in post #606?

Stranger
 

Richard_oti

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That doesn't mean its not inspired or unreliable. If one account is unreliable, then so are all other accounts, a little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump. It just means that our assumptions about who said what are wrong within the narrative.

Yet we have such as:

2Ti 3:16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

Do we include the NT in this, or only apply it to the OT.


I have an understanding that the Bible is a collection of words formatted as stories similar to any other book. They are true stories for sure, but stories nonetheless. If we treat the Bible in similar fashion, then understanding it become easier. You can't have it both ways, there are either some righteous or none at all. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, and God is not the author of confusion, so there certainly must be an explanation for such verses.

Indeed, there must be an explanation. However if we relegate them to "stories" and allow ourselves to pick and choose that which we accept and that which we wish to attempt to explain away, the "stories" cease to carry any authority.

Since we can't have it both ways, and "none are righteous", thus also it is true that "none seeketh", which if we are to apply that according to the measured used with regard to "none righteous", we are left that not even one of us seeketh. If we wish to exclude or attempt to explain away one part of Luke, can we not also then attempt to explain away some of Paul. That his writings are "stories".

@Stranger has already provided "reasonable" explanation. Did I really just say that? <chuckle>

Also consider as a difference: "who trusted in themselves that they were righteous" [ cf Luke 18:9]


Further, Jesus himself said he did not come to call the righteous, but sinners. thus who are whole have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. That does leave open the possibility of some being "righteous" / whole. Those who didn't trust in themselves that they were righteous. Consider Simeon, Joseph of Arimathaea.

However, we could also examine Psalm 14, to see if we can understand / discern what / who David was speaking of / referring.


We assume that this is God saying they were righteous, but we don't see God being referred to as the one saying it. We don't see terms such as "and God said" or "the Lord said" for instance at all which is what is always seen when it is actually God speaking. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that God wasn't the one that claimed them to be righteous, but is coming entirely from the narrative or perspective of Luke.

And thus, each of us would be allowed to attempt to use such to exclude / explain away anything that we don't care for, or that we don't want to accept.

Once we begin to undermine ...

I have witnessed people attempt to claim that the words of Moses were just that, only the words of Moses when the text clearly said of the place in question: "And God said ..."
 

Richard_oti

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i do, and stop lol you do too

Of what sin would you convict her? Getting pregnant outside of the "marriage" bed?


hmm, i would say that it is crucial? If Mary can be sinless, who needs Christ?

So how do you reconcile that with one of the things you have posted:

"no Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die"

And: "pick up your cross and follow"?


def not, i agree; she was "chosen." And if i can sway one opinion away from perceiving her as holy or sinless, or in any other way on par with Christ, then i am convicted to do so

Understood. What does "holy" mean?
 

Richard_oti

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imo that isn't really fair?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But if we are allowed to exclude one place in one person's writing based upon a given reasoning, may I also begin to exclude any place which I so deem because:

Scripture makes...intentional prevarications (also), seems to me

And thus, I am able to make it say what I want to hear. Don't we already have enough of that?
 

Richard_oti

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definitely imo, get comfortable with it lol; then God might be sought

Yet it is written: There are none that seek. If there are none that seek, then there are none that seek. Thus, there is no "then might be sought".

So we are left to examine Psalm 14, to see if we can discern as to whom David was speaking.
 

Dcopymope

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There is nothing to indicate that righteousness is ever imputed on account of works. Nothing. God established imputed righteousness on the basis of faith with Abraham. Thus that is the only way it is ever imputed. Therefore, if Zacharias and Elisabeth are called righteous, it is the righteousness imputed to them on the basis of their faith.

Of course they operated under the law, as they were under the law at this time. But they still needed to have righteousness imputed to them on the basis of faith.

Stranger

Again, their righteousness isn't stated as imputed on account of their faith, but because they "kept all of Gods commandments and ordinances of the lord", making them "blameless". There is no other way to comprehend what Luke wrote here. He is saying that I can be saved by following the written letter of the law, which presumably includes all 613 of them. According to Peter, this is something that neither they nor their ancestors could bear, but Luke says that Zacharias and Elisabeth did................
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.............yeah, something is definitely not adding up here, as far as how you all interpret it that is.
 

aspen

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I have no problem with the Trinity.

Mary did not give birth to God. God existed before Mary. Didn't he?

Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger

So God just ‘possessed’ the fully human fetus of Jesus? Seems to me that denying that Jesus is fully human and fully God - possessing both divine and human DNA is to fall into heresy
 

Dcopymope

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So God just ‘possessed’ the fully human fetus of Jesus? Seems to me that denying that Jesus is fully human and fully God - possessing both divine and human DNA is to fall into heresy

I think the term "God/Man" is him confirming that he was fully God and fully human. I don't see how claiming he 'possessed' the human fetus denies it. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what happened, unless one wants to claim that it was a natural birth, but then I would surely be denying his deity.
 

aspen

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I think the term "God/Man" is him confirming that he was fully God and fully human. I don't see how claiming he 'possessed' the human fetus denies it. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what happened, unless one wants to claim that it was a natural birth, but then I would surely be denying his deity.

Well, it is a heresy, but at least you admit it
 

Stranger

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Again, their righteousness isn't stated as imputed on account of their faith, but because they "kept all of Gods commandments and ordinances of the lord", making them "blameless". There is no other way to comprehend what Luke wrote here. He is saying that I can be saved by following the written letter of the law, which presumably includes all 613 of them. According to Peter, this is something that neither they nor their ancestors could bear, but Luke says that Zacharias and Elisabeth did................
default_dry.png
.............yeah, something is definitely not adding up here, as far as how you all interpret it that is.

In (Luke 1:6) it doesn't say 'their' righteousness. It says "...they were both righteous before God...." That always is an imputed righteousness. See (Rom 4:2-3). "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the Scripture: Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." To be righteous before God is to have His righteousness imputed to you.

When it says in (Luke 1:6), "...walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.", That doesn't mean they were sinless. Nor does it mean the Law saved them. They were under the Law. When they sinned, which they did, they were obedient to bring the correct sacrifices that God commanded. They were obedient under the Law but they were sinners under the Law.

Zacharias and Elisabeth were believers saved by faith, righteous before God, and walking in obedience under the Law.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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So God just ‘possessed’ the fully human fetus of Jesus? Seems to me that denying that Jesus is fully human and fully God - possessing both divine and human DNA is to fall into heresy

I have not denied that Jesus is fully human and fully God. Jesus Christ is the God/Man. 100%God and 100% Man.

Stranger
 

aspen

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I have not denied that Jesus is fully human and fully God. Jesus Christ is the God/Man. 100%God and 100% Man.

Stranger

If you are indeed claiming that Jesus was a human being possessed by God, it is falling short of claiming that Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.
 

Stranger

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If you are indeed claiming that Jesus was a human being possessed by God, it is falling short of claiming that Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.

Why do you say 'if'? If you think I have said such, then show where and explain.

Stranger