Ask a catholic

(DrBubbaLove;39473)
Slipstream,Look at Luke 11.14. When the protestors in the reformation created the KJV they assumed the Greek version of the Bible they used was the oldest and truest manuscript. In this case at least the words; "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever"; were a much later additions to the original verse in Matthew 6:13. IOW originally those words were not part of scripture. Those words come to us from the tradition of the Eastern Liturgy and at some point along the way went from a side note to being included in the verse in Matthew.So while as noted we do say those words regularly as a part of the Mass in the US today, it is not today and was not officially a part of what we call the "Our Father".
Excuse me, since when was the devil persecuted for creating a "bible"? People who translated some older translation before the KJV was persecuted, burned to death. Satan hates us and we don't even burn people for creating false bibles, we leave the tares alone.I hate Alexandrian Texts. Alexandrian Texts may be the oldest for one minor reason... Nobody burns their texts rather we preach the Truth to begin with...simple and clear... But Alexandrian Texts will in no way be the Word of God that God create.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

Jag,Lots of versions besides the KJV today have the modified ending to the verse in Matthew. The fact that this ending to the Our Father is not in the KJV Luke version of the prayer either (or in any other version of LUKE) should give you a clue that the ending in Matthew was altered later. This fact is well admitted by scholars, even those that support KJV, so I am not sure what your point is. No is claiming a devil acted to either add or remove these words, and everyone has already clearly stated that we ALL use these same words in worship. So it is rather silly of you to insert the idea here that having a shorter or longer "Our Father" prayer is somehow satanic. You are the only one making such a false accusation.

(DrBubbaLove;39482)
Jag,Lots of versions besides the KJV today have the modified ending to the verse in Matthew. The fact that this ending to the Our Father is not in the KJV Luke version of the prayer either (or in any other version of LUKE) should give you a clue that the ending in Matthew was altered later. This fact is well admitted by scholars, even those that support KJV, so I am not sure what your point is. No is claiming a devil acted to either add or remove these words, and everyone has already clearly stated that we ALL use these same words in worship. So it is rather silly of you to insert the idea here that having a shorter or longer "Our Father" prayer is somehow satanic. You are the only one making such a false accusation.
Modified? So you are saying that God's words has changed and there is no Truth existed? So all you are saying there is only a lie existed?That is baloney...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

(thesuperjag;39484)
Modified? So you are saying that God's words has changed and there is no Truth existed? So all you are saying there is only a lie existed?That is baloney...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
You are an odd duck Jag,Can you please explain??? Where is the lie if a Christian says ""For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever". Am assuming/hoping you don't think that is a lie for us to say that. Besides, since WE ALL DO say those words your point would be silly.So you must be refering to the fact that not every version of the Bible today has the longer prayer in Matthew. Yet you disregard the FACT that NONE of the version today INCLUDING THE KJV contains the longer version of the prayer in LUKE. So we have to versions for the same event. So are you suggesting LUKE lied or Matthew lied? And if you are going to say both are right then what the heck is your problem exactly?If you are upset because I said the KJV translators relied on a GREEK version of Matthew to get the longer version of the prayer, then do not be upset with me for stating a fact. If it bothers you to know where the KJV came from then you have a very odd idea of Bible History and also of what inspired means if you believe it was a lie for someone to add those words to Matthew in the Greek version used to produce the KJV.For me the DIDACHE was written in the mid-1st century and it represents what the Apostles taught. It includes the entire prayer with the longer ending, so regardless whether we believe the ending was originally part of Jesus words that day (since Luke and Mattew appear to disagree in all our versions) it is clear the Apostles used these words. So I see nothing wrong with using them, it is certainly God's Words, and that makes them Inspirited words and I see nothing wrong at all with someone adding them later to Matthew.

Hi holdencaufield,On the matter of confessing our sins to another, that is found in James 5:16a, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed"Notice the connection between confession of sin and healing as a result of that confession.James is not telling us to confess our secret sins to another human being. He is saying that if you have sinned against a person (and come to realize it) you should go to that person and confess your sin against him and ask for forgiveness.Again, the Catholic Church has misconstrued the meaning of Scripture. This Word from God in James does not command us to go and tell a priest or any other person our secret sins. If you want to start a whole mess in your spiritual life, just go and tell someone your personal sins and before long the chain of people who will know what they have no business to know will be a long one.And I'm sure that the truth will be altered to a point that falsehood will be spread about you that you may not even find out about, and that could be very harmful to the faith of one of your brothers or sisters in Christ.Confess your private sins to God. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."We should live that way with God. Confess our sins daily, examine our hearts daily that we may repent and be changed "from faith to faith."waynemlj

Hi DrBubbaLove,I have included your Scripture reference below so that I may comment on it clearly."John 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. "First of all, no human being can forgive sins! God alone has that right and authority.Jesus in the above Scripture was not transferring the power to forgive sins to His apostles. This is a passage from the Bible that is often controversial.He was telling them that as they go forth and preach the Gospel, they will have the discernment from the Holy Spirit to explain from the Gospel what God says to the repentant sinner...God forgives your sin because you are repentant, or your sin remains according to God's Word because you are unrepentant.It is not the apostles who forgive sins at any time.That's the correct meaning of Jesus words to his apostles.waynemlj

Hi holdencaufield,I have included your statement so that I'll be sure to stay on topic and reply to this point exactly.No we don't, we believe that through faith and good works one is saved. One can not be saved without the other. I wonder if you are saying that salvation comes to a soul by that soul's own personal possession of faith and the good works that he has performed.If that's your meaning, I would have to direct you to the Bible to Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not the result of works, so that no one may boast."If you were including that Scripture in your reply, then we see the same truth, but I didn't see anything in your response that would clearly help me to see that.And another quote from your same reply is somewhat mysterious, I think.That's funny because it's in the Bible. Besides we don't pray to the saints, we ask them to pray for us.Praying the rosary is not in the Bible anywhere. That is a dogma of the Catholic Church which takes people's hearts way for Jesus Christ and gives His glory to Mary who is only a human being like you and I are.You say Catholics don't pray to saints but ask them to pray for us.Isn't that still praying to saints? Jesus never, ever told us to do such a thing as that. He told us to ask Him for our requests and to ask our heavenly Father for our requests . . . Besides there are no saints in any special way as the C.C. claims.We, who believe in Jesus Christ for our salvation, are ALL saints even while here on earth, and we are told that truth all the way through the New Testament.waynemlj

Cute fella! But with feet pointing like those, doesn't he (she?) just go round in circles all day (kind of appropriate in some situations, maybe?).

(waynemlj;39503)
That is a dogma of the Catholic Church which takes people's hearts way for Jesus Christ and gives His glory to Mary who is only a human being like you and I are.j
Why do you claim to know what's in a person's heart when he prays???

In response to your post Wayne, I disagree with your personal interpretation. When it says "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained." It is quite clear that the aplostles were given the authority to forgive sins, through the power of the Holy Spirit. For you to suggest anything else is going beyond what is written. I have quotes from the early Church Fathers that support the Biblical view that the Apostles were given the authority to forgive sins, I'll post them if you'd like. From a historical standpoint, it was believed by all Chrisitans that Priests had the authority for forgive sins for over 1,500 years. When Martin Luther broke away from the Church, he held to the belief that sins must be confessed, because suggesting otherwise would have been a clear disregard of that scripture. In another post you suggested that if one were to confess their sins to a person, before long everyone would know & the sins would have been exaggerated. If that's true of your Pastor, how sad - but Catholic Priests NEVER repeat the sins heard in the confessional - everyone knows that, which is why a Priest will not be called to testify in court after someone accused of a crime confesses to him.

(Peacebewithyou;39515)
It is quite clear that the aplostles were given the authority to forgive sins, through the power of the Holy Spirit. For you to suggest anything else is going beyond what is written. I have quotes from the early Church Fathers that support the Biblical view that the Apostles were given the authority to forgive sins, I'll post them if you'd like.
personally, I think you are right here in making the distinction that people may forgive sins, but not of their own power, but through the power of Jesus. In other words, they do not do the forgiving themselves on their own authority, they only form the mouthpiece for the forgiveness from God. Is this not the principle underlying all church practices in handling confession, whether individual and specific or collective and general?

(kalixx;39516)
personally, I think you are right here in making the distinction that people may forgive sins, but not of their own power, but through the power of Jesus. In other words, they do not do the forgiving themselves on their own authority, they only form the mouthpiece for the forgiveness from God. Is this not the principle underlying all church practices in handling confession, whether individual and specific or collective and general?
yes,http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#14561461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." .............1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner. 1466 The confessor is not the master of God's forgiveness, but its servant.

letsgofishing1. Mary being born without sin*- I have actually never believed this but it does have some biblical proof. The first is in genesis 3:15 15I will put enmity between you and the woman,and between your offspring and her offspring;he shall bruise your head,and you shall bruise his heel."Now the catholic church believes "the woman" in this passage is Mary and for her and satan to have enmity Mary must be free from sin.The second Luke 1:2828And the angel came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [[endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women So Obviously Mary was set apart. The catholic church believes she was set apart from sin, because that is the only way she could gain that emnity 2. Was Mary a virgin- Brothers in arabic did not only mean blood siblings, but also cousins, uncles, close friends ect. Therefore when the bible says brother or sister it is not nessecarily mean siblings3. The assumption of Mary while not not seen in the bible had once been a belief of all christians before the reformation. Therefore it is supported by tradition. I don't believe this either, but I see it as a harmless belief.4. Prayers for the dead are completley biblical. Check out 2 Tim 1:16-1The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me-- the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus. Saint Paul in this passage is praying for his departed friend Onesiphorus. 5. You are completley right, we are only allowed to pray to God alone. Which is why we don't pray to the saints. We ask them to pray for us. which is completley biblical
1. The woman in Gen 3:15 is Eve not Mary(first prophecy in the Bible)God speaking to satan and EveGenesis 3:14 "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"This is God speaking to Satan. God is cursing Satan above all living creatures. This is a figure of speech, meaning you are the lowest thing of all creation. Now God continues to speak to the serpent [Satan].Genesis 3:15 "And I [God] will put enmity between thee [Satan] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed [the Kenites] and her Seed [Jesus Christ]; It [Christ] shall bruise thy [Satan's] head, and thou [Satan] shalt bruise His [Christ's] heel."2.While its true that brothers could mean cousins,the key verse that lets you no that Joseph did have sex with Mary is Matt 1:25Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS."Lets take a look at the word knew from the concordance1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feela) to become known2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge ofa) to understand to know3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman4) to become acquainted with, to knowDo you see number 3,thats exactly what it means,Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Christ was born3.No comment4.Don't see how that verse relates to praying for the dead5.You are missing the point,we can ask those who are living to pray for us,but the dead here us not,for we are not to even try an communicate with the dead,do you know what one is called that talks to the dead?let me help you out, Necromancer Does the Bible warn against praying to the dead? Yes it does, and it is called being a 'necromancer'. In the Scripture below, God warns us not to participate in a number of occultist and evil practices, one of those is called being a 'necromancer'. This word is from two Hebrew words (#1875 darash (daw-rash') & #4191 muwth (mooth) and it means: One who follows, searches, seeks or asks; specifically to worship a dead body, dead man, dead one. Deut 18:9-139 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. (KJV)

n2thelight,1. Most verses have at least 4 meanings. Obviously the scripture in Genesis refers to Eve, but you have made no case that it could not also refer to Mary. Clearly Jesus is Mary's seed and in that sense Eve is a type for Mary just as Adam is a type for Christ.2. But is it true that the only way we ever use "until" is to signify that something necessarily has to occur again after that point. If someone writes that John would not kill Bob until the team reached San Francisco do we conclude and then writes that the team arrived in the next chapter, does the reader always conclude Bob is dead and John is a murderer if it is not explicitly said. We could however assume Bob did not get killed by John along the way. Until does not always have to indicate a certainty of occurrence but can indicate what will or will not happen (in this case) up to a point in time.3. Am not sure why people would object to Mary being assumed while being ok with the idea that Moses, Elijah, Enoch...etc were.4. Paul is speaking about a man who is dead. Any other reading has Paul insulting a man and his family (in simultaneously giving him praise then failing to mention him in closing the letter. The way he expression his feelings about the man and asking blessings on his family are the way someone speaks of a dead friend, not the living.5. If you can find any act of necromancy where the object was to get the dead to speak to God on our behalf then you might have a leg to stand on.

DrBubbaLoven2thelight,1. Most verses have at least 4 meanings. Obviously the scripture in Genesis refers to Eve, but you have made no case that it could not also refer to Mary. Clearly Jesus is Mary's seed and in that sense Eve is a type for Mary just as Adam is a type for Christ.2. But is it true that the only way we ever use "until" is to signify that something necessarily has to occur again after that point. If someone writes that John would not kill Bob until the team reached San Francisco do we conclude and then writes that the team arrived in the next chapter, does the reader always conclude Bob is dead and John is a murderer if it is not explicitly said. We could however assume Bob did not get killed by John along the way. Until does not always have to indicate a certainty of occurrence but can indicate what will or will not happen (in this case) up to a point in time.3. Am not sure why people would object to Mary being assumed while being ok with the idea that Moses, Elijah, Enoch...etc were.4. Paul is speaking about a man who is dead. Any other reading has Paul insulting a man and his family (in simultaneously giving him praise then failing to mention him in closing the letter. The way he expression his feelings about the man and asking blessings on his family are the way someone speaks of a dead friend, not the living.5. If you can find any act of necromancy where the object was to get the dead to speak to God on our behalf then you might have a leg to stand on.
1.True most verses do have more than one meaning,that is why we must follow the subject,not just of that verse but also the verses before and after,Now if we were to accept what you all say that would mean that every child in the generation of Eve to Mary would be born sinless,so while Mary is of the seed of Eve she is no more sinless than all who were born before her.2.Thats why the mention of Christ having brothers and sisters does not mean cousins.3.No comment(Gotta do more research )4.Its does the dead no good whatsoever for anyone to pray for them,whatever standing they were in at the time of their death is where it shall remain until judgement5The prayer to Mary is that very act,for Mary is dead and so are all the other saints

Hi Peacebewithyou,Your words:"Why do you claim to know what's in a person's heart when he prays???"It sure would be nice if you would explain to me where you ever got that idea from.In every reply I make, in every post I make, I base it on God's word and reference it to God's Word so that we can discuss how we included it in our statements to each other.Isn't that why we are on the Christian Board? To discuss our faith which comes to us through the revealed word of God? 2 Timothy 4:2-4, "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."waynemlj

(waynemlj;39658)
Hi Peacebewithyou,Your words:"Why do you claim to know what's in a person's heart when he prays???"It sure would be nice if you would explain to me where you ever got that idea from.j
When you said: Praying the rosary is not in the Bible anywhere. That is a dogma of the Catholic Church which takes people's hearts way for Jesus Christ and gives His glory to Mary who is only a human being like you and I are.You are claiming to know what is in a person's heart. Otherwise, how could you state that one's heart is directed away from Jesus & instead, giving glory to Mary? When I pray the rosary, I am meditating on the life of Christ, not Mary. Please reread Dr. Bubba's post (#96) where he explains each decade of the rosary - it's all about Jesus. Surely you don't have a problem with someone meditating on the life, death, and ressurection of Christ?

(n2thelight;39657)
1.True most verses do have more than one meaning,that is why we must follow the subject,not just of that verse but also the verses before and after,Now if we were to accept what you all say that would mean that every child in the generation of Eve to Mary would be born sinless,so while Mary is of the seed of Eve she is no more sinless than all who were born before her.
you punted, the verse in the creation story we were discussing says nothing about either Eve or Mary being born sinless. And when accepting this verse is a "type" for Mary, it would be ridiculous to say that means it is speaking about every mom from Eve to Mary. That is not what Type means. When the NT says Jesus is the new Adam, Adam in the OT becomes a type for Jesus but does NOT make every male from Adam to Jesus a "type" for Jesus does it?
2.Thats why the mention of Christ having brothers and sisters does not mean cousins.
??? I had just said "until" does not have to mean that it is a fact that Mary and Joseph ever slept together. Just as Bob does not have to be assumed to dead even though the story said both made it to San Fransico. The point of the story saying "until" was that Bob did not die enroute. Perhaps Bob does not die at all in the rest of story, or does not die at John's hand. "Until" we read more or are given more details by the writer we do have to conclude that "until" meant Bob is murdered just because the story mentions they arrived in San Fransico. My point is simply "until" Jesus birth is not a conclusive statement about anything occurring after His birth. Just as in the story about John and Bob, one could speculate.
4.Its does the dead no good whatsoever for anyone to pray for them, whatever standing they were in at the time of their death is where it shall remain until judgment.
You are aware that our belief is that everyone in Purgatory is going to Heaven? No one going to Hell goes through Purgatory. The damned go straight to Hell after this life. So if one believes in a Purgatory there is every reason to believe such prayers could benefit that person. Your comment about judgment only applies if it was our belief that we could pray a dead person from Hell into Heaven. That is not our belief.
5The prayer to Mary is that very act,for Mary is dead and so are all the other saints
You did not answer the question. Again, show me one instance in the Bible or from any source where the purpose of necromancy is to ask the dead to pray for us to God.To make an analogy using your logic. If a Bible verse explicitly said it was wrong to use a bat to smash someone brains out, it is the act, the use of the bat that is wrong and not the bat itself. It would be silly to conclude that playing baseball is a sin. Ask yourself why people performing necromancy wanted to speak with the dead. It was not talking to dead people that is wrong, but the reason they did it. Otherwise every utterance of any child to their departed parent or for that matter anyone speaking to a departed love one would be necromancy. Are you prepared to condemn a child for talking to their mom? Or the man grieving for his lost wife? In this case it is the reason not the act that makes necromancy a sin.

Two questions for you please.1/ Why do Catholic Priests have to remain celibrate.2/ in the praying the rosary and you get to the 4 sets of Mysteries, do you have to recite them, if you do how do you remember them. I have been looking them up on the INTERNET but there seems a lot to remember.Thanks.Roger