Does anything at all exist without God?

"ByGrace" said:

Agree , and He says .." Is there strife in the city and I have not done it."

Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

I don't like it, but it is so.

Without dark background the diamonds do not shine as bright.
The darker it gets, the brighter the light!
Nothing is without purpose ...Satan is a tool in God's hand..just a tool ..for testing and refining to perfection.
Nothing is ever out of control...it's just us the see it that way.
God's Plan is still working.

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Not if HE created evil.
We're told to fight evil.
You think God likes it?
So why does it exist you may ask?
Why doesn't God make evil go away?
When you find the answer, let me know.
The one question theologians cannot answer.

BUT GOD DID NOT CREATE IT.
I'm not worshipping that God.

GodsGrace said:

I already have stated my position.
It's a theological position.

One could believe in dualism: There's a good God and a bad God.
One could believe in an evil God: One that purposefully created evil.
One could believe that God is all-good: Which is what I believe.

And which is supported by the bible we read:
1 John 4:8
God IS LOVE.
The very nature of God is love. If His NATURE is love, then there can be no evil in Him. John spent over three years with Jesus. I believe John over anyone who tells me God created evil.

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Some things are missing in your possible options. There is only One God and He is Good and He is Love. But, the definitions for Good and for Love are God's, not ours nor any man's. Even when reading the Bible man without the direction of the Holy Spirit will automatically apply his own preconceived notions and understanding of things to what he is reading and draw his own conclusions. [Even a Spirit led person will still quench the Spirit at times during his reading and apply some his own previous conclusions in coming to new conclusions making them as bad or worse than his previous errors.]

You seem to doubt that God created evil, but a few questions come easily to mind. One is what does it mean to create? Others are what is God [the only One who is Good] and what is Love and what is evil?

We, each of us, likely has some answers, but if we do not have God's answer to each question using God's definitions? How correct are our answers likely to be?

This is why I believe we really have to live by faith, but our real knowledge of God and the things of God is so limited and in many cases is likely wrong.

GodsGrace said:

Not if HE created evil.
We're told to fight evil.
You think God likes it?
So why does it exist you may ask?
Why doesn't God make evil go away?
When you find the answer, let me know.
The one question theologians cannot answer.

BUT GOD DID NOT CREATE IT.
I'm not worshipping that God.

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Oh come on Fran. We may not like it, but it is written.
Isaiah "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc"
We think with a carnal mind...but God is working His Plan for the good of His creation, He sees it no different than a tool in education which brings change. Just like death...to us it is a major big thing..to Him it is just a change of realms.
A friend dies and I am heart broken , from my perspective...I think too small..but, to God...He is delighted in receiving another lamb Home! \0/
"Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his faithful ones."

But, maybe we have derailed this thread and gone off topic. Whoops!
Sorry @Miss Hepburn .... how can we get it back? Anyone?

amadeus said:

Some things are missing in your possible options. There is only One God and He is Good and He is Love. But, the definitions for Good and for Love are God's, not ours nor any man's. Even when reading the Bible man without the direction of the Holy Spirit will automatically apply his own preconceived notions and understanding of things to what he is reading and draw his own conclusions. [Even a Spirit led person will still quench the Spirit at times during his reading and apply some his own previous conclusions in coming to new conclusions making them as bad or worse than his previous errors.]

You seem to doubt that God created evil, but a few questions come easily to mind. One is what does it mean to create? Others are what is God [the only One who is Good] and what is Love and what is evil?

We, each of us likely has some answers, but if we do not have God's answer to each question using God's definitions? How correct are our answers likely to be?

This is why I believe we really have to live by faith, but our real knowledge of God and the things of God is so limited and in many cases is likely wrong.

Click to expand...

Well,
What are God's definitions?
Did He not make Himself known to us?
Jesus came here only to die?
Not to make us know the Father??

Do YOU think God created evil?
One may be brought to think that since God created everything and because we have a problem with evil.

We cannot, by our having this problem, blame God for it.

"ByGrace" said:

Oh come on Fran. We may not like it, but it is written.
Isaiah "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc"
We think with a carnal mind...but God is working His Plan for the good of His creation, He sees it no different than a tool in education which brings change. Just like death...to us it is a major big thing..to Him it is just a change of realms.
A friend dies and I am heart broken , from my perspective...I think too small..but, to God...He is delighted in receiving another lamb Home! \0/
"Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his faithful ones."

But, maybe we have derailed this thread and gone off topic. Whoops!
Sorry @Miss Hepburn .... how can we get it back? Anyone?

Click to expand...

ByGrace,
It's not for my good to get cancer.
It's not for my good to get sick.
God is God. He doesn't have to make me get sick to teach me something.

God DID NOT write every word in the bible .
Men did.
In the O.T., before Jesus fully revealed God, men attributed everything that happened to God. Does this mean God REALLY did everything?

When you see a sick child in the hospital with cancer, you believe GOD did this?

Isaiah and a few other verses outdo what JESUS AND JOHN and PAUL said about God?
Do you not believe in progressive revelation?

Evil is the willful misuse of creation. God always uses creation as He intended to use it. Since our will to misuse is necessary to create evil, God could not have created it.

aspen said:

I tend to think God is actively creating our existence.

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That doesn't quite fit the mechanics of it...well, except for "as it is written."

aspen said:

Evil is the willful misuse of creation. God always uses creation as He intended to use it. Since our will to misuse is necessary to create evil, God could not have created it.

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AMEN!

Calvinism makes God out to be a monster.
Are we traditional Christians now going to do the same?

ScottA said:

That doesn't quite fit the mechanics of it...well, except for "as it is written."

Click to expand...

You're post is to Aspen.

But...
Did I not post Colossians 1:17

Does it mean nothing to you?
Could you please exegete it.

Thank you.

GodsGrace said:

To us or to God??

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Even to God. Sure, he knows all, so its not like a computer was ever a foreign idea to him. Did it exist, and can it exist without God? Did the computer exist from the most "ancient of days"? I would put down the PC as one thing on my list that can exist without God.

GodsGrace said:

Well,
What are God's definitions?

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They are written in scripture, but, as you already know, what is written is often misused. Jesus never misused it, but people who have decided they have the answers search only for support for what they already believe that they know rather for what God would say the answer is.

Googling for an answer can be convenient, but how correct is it going to be?

Did He not make Himself known to us?

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Yes, to open hearts. But how much did we receive about Him in that first meeting?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. " Mark 8:23-25

That blind man required two touches in order to see men clearly. How many times can we open our hearts to God and still receive something new from Him. Is there any limit? The limit lies perhaps not in what God has available, but rather in our willingness to continue to receive more.

Jesus came here only to die?
Not to make us know the Father??

Click to expand...

Jesus came to bring Life and who that is dead knows the Father? But, even the apostle Paul writes of seeing as through a glass darkly with the "face to face" part still to come. If we are on the approach, doesn't that mean our vision of Him is to be improving?

Do YOU think God created evil?

Click to expand...

I believe that He created the possibility of evil and man brought it into being by his choice. Isn't that effectively the same thing as creating evil? God created both the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. God did not make man choose the wrong one, but He certainly created the possibility of making a wrong choice.

One may be brought to think that since God created everything and because we have a problem with evil.

We cannot, by our having this problem, blame God for it.

Click to expand...

God has always had an overall plan and men get sidetracked according to their own carnal understanding or misunderstandings. This is the function or mis-function of a logical mind. What does God want us to do?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

What are "all these things"? I believe that they are everything that we need, but only God knows what each of us needs. Even we initially do not really know what we need:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

So God sent His Son to open the Way and the Holy Spirit to lead along the Way. If we insist on ignoring the help provided, who's fault is that?

amadeus said:

If you are addressing me, I've been retired from man's work since the year 2000. At 74 I have even had to stop most yard work, but when it comes to God I do not sit and watch the world go by. Outside the computer I preach and teach and witness as God opens the doors. How successful? That's not an answer that been given to me. Hopefully God is pleased. Who else matters?

As to computers, I remember while working for the Social Security Administration, we always had computers. Not me personally, but the agency installed their computer mainframe in Baltimore in 1962. When I started work for them in 1974, we were given pens, pencils and paper in an unlimited quantities, but no machines other than manual typewriters [replaced a little later by the electric ones]. I did a lot of math on my job, but in the beginning, we did not even have the old style adding machines available. I was really good at long division and algebra in those days. By the time I retired in 2000 I was taking all of my claims directly into the computer and most of the computations were done by the computer as well. Every year the agency was using newer and better computers doing more and more of the complex operations. The difference between the start and the finish for me was like night and day.

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That's cool, I can't imagine dispatching an aircraft without a computer where you would have to make dozens of calculations, and do it within thirty to forty minutes, with the phone ringing off the hook, and about ten other different things going on at the same time, good lord no, after my experience, not a chance in hell.

GodsGrace said:

NOT to derail, but I feel we have to stop saying God created evil, or chaos which is what is said in Isaiah 45:7.

If God CREATED evil, then God has an evil aspect.
Does He?
Or is He all-good?

Please answer.

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God's dealings with evil are not for evil, but for good. But a better way to understand "evil", is with the term "darkness", which for this purpose, is essentially the same.

It is darkness that gives clarity to Light, by means of contrast. Which is God's purpose for darkness in establishing good and bringing "perfection" to good in glory. But darkness, in and of itself, is not what we would consider evil...except that it is, and we are wrong to look at it any other way, although we do. It is rather what one does with and in the darkness that is evil. Likewise, it is possible to walk in the world, but not be of the world.

So, it is only because we suffer from language skills and have preconceived ideas about what evil means that we see evil and darkness differently. Which is true of us, but not of God. His ways are indeed higher.

GodsGrace said:

You're post is to Aspen.

But...
Did I not post Colossians 1:17

Does it mean nothing to you?
Could you please exegete it.

Thank you.

Click to expand...

I was referring to Aspen's post:

aspen said:

I tend to think God is actively creating our existence.

Click to expand...

...specifically "God is actively creating." Which is not accurate in one respect, which is how I believe he meant it. In other words, God "did" create, then wrote it out, then revealed it, "as it is written." This is a truth that is made clear in that one little phrase, from God.

So, my comment, was to make clarification...that the only thing "actively" going on was not the "creation", but is only the revelation of it...which we are now in the final hours of.

Dcopymope said:

Even to God. Sure, he knows all, so its not like a computer was ever a foreign idea to him. Did it exist, and can it exist without God? Did the computer exist from the most "ancient of days"? I would put down the PC as one thing on my list that can exist without God.

Click to expand...

Interesting.
I don't quite understand what the difference is between a computer or any other item.
Did you ever hear of the god particle. It's called the Higgs Boson.
Scientists couldn't understand what keeps atoms together...why don't they just float away.
There is something that hold them together! They nick named it the God particle.
I find that interesting.

ScottA said:

I was referring to Aspen's post:
...specifically "God is actively creating." Which is not accurate in one respect, which is how I believe he meant it. In other words, God "did" create, then wrote it out, then revealed it, "as it is written." This is a truth that is made clear in that one little phrase, from God.

So, my comment, was to make clarification...that the only thing "actively" going on was not the "creation", but is only the revelation of it...which we are now in the final hours of.

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying.
I agree with what you say..
I also agree with @aspen .
God is always creating. This is a personal opinion of mine.
He is The Creator.
Perhaps He's creating each moment as we go,
He certainly holds everything together.
We have to admit that we don't know everything about God.
He's too great.

ScottA said:

God's dealings with evil are not for evil, but for good. But a better way to understand "evil", is with the term "darkness", which for this purpose, is essentially the same.

It is darkness that gives clarity to Light, by means of contrast. Which is God's purpose for darkness in establishing good and bringing "perfection" to good in glory. But darkness, in and of itself, is not what we would consider evil...except that it is, and we are wrong to look at it any other way, although we do. It is rather what one does with and in the darkness that is evil. Likewise, it is possible to walk in the world, but not be of the world.

So, it is only because we suffer from language skills and have preconceived ideas about what evil means that we see evil and darkness differently. Which is true of us, but not of God. His ways are indeed higher.

Click to expand...

Funny you should say this.
My brother and I were discussing bright and dark. He's a born again Christian.
We likened it to a TV.
The more difference between black and white, the brighter the colors in between.
Now this is kind of what @"ByGrace" said about a diamond and a dark background.

Your post above is a bit too deep for me and I have to think about it some.

ScottA said:

God's dealings with evil are not for evil, but for good. But a better way to understand "evil", is with the term "darkness", which for this purpose, is essentially the same.

It is darkness that gives clarity to Light, by means of contrast. Which is God's purpose for darkness in establishing good and bringing "perfection" to good in glory. But darkness, in and of itself, is not what we would consider evil...except that it is, and we are wrong to look at it any other way, although we do. It is rather what one does with and in the darkness that is evil. Likewise, it is possible to walk in the world, but not be of the world.

So, it is only because we suffer from language skills and have preconceived ideas about what evil means that we see evil and darkness differently. Which is true of us, but not of God. His ways are indeed higher.

Click to expand...

Are you saying God allows evil so we could love the good?
( Or appreciate it? )

amadeus said:

They are written in scripture, but, as you already know, what is written is often misused. Jesus never misused it, but people who have decided they have the answers search only for support for what they already believe that they know rather for what God would say the answer is.

Googling for an answer can be convenient, but how correct is it going to be?


Yes, to open hearts. But how much did we receive about Him in that first meeting?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. " Mark 8:23-25

That blind man required two touches in order to see men clearly. How many times can we open our hearts to God and still receive something new from Him. Is there any limit? The limit lies perhaps not in what God has available, but rather in our willingness to continue to receive more.


Jesus came to bring Life and who that is dead knows the Father? But, even the apostle Paul writes of seeing as through a glass darkly with the "face to face" part still to come. If we are on the approach, doesn't that mean our vision of Him is to be improving?


I believe that He created the possibility of evil and man brought it into being by his choice. Isn't that effectively the same thing as creating evil? God created both the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. God did not make man choose the wrong one, but He certainly created the possibility of making a wrong choice.


God has always had an overall plan and men get sidetracked according to their own carnal understanding or misunderstandings. This is the function or mis-function of a logical mind. What does God want us to do?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

What are "all these things"? I believe that they are everything that we need, but only God knows what each of us needs. Even we initially do not really know what we need:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

So God sent it Son to open the Way and the Holy Spirit to lead along the Way. If we insist on ignoring the help provided, who's fault is that?

Click to expand...

On tablet.
Hope I could remember to reply tomorrow.

GodsGrace said:

Thanks for clarifying.
I agree with what you say..
I also agree with @aspen .
God is always creating. This is a personal opinion of mine.
He is The Creator.
Perhaps He's creating each moment as we go,
He certainly holds everything together.
We have to admit that we don't know everything about God.
He's too great.

Click to expand...

But...we have the mind of Christ...

This is like Paul saying "we will by no means proceed those who have fallen asleep." Which all depends on the context.

If we say that God is timeless and in that context we and those who have fallen asleep join Christ simultaneously, it is correct, which would seem to make Paul a fool or a liar. But if we say that Paul spoke to those who had not yet seen death and it is in that context that we do not proceed those who have fallen asleep, this is also correct, and Paul is right to say so, even though it would appear to contradict the timeless truth of God.

Speaking then, from the perspective of Christ whom has joined the Father, in whom we share an eternal context, and because we no longer live, but it is Christ who lives in us...it is correct to say that all that was created "was" created "before the foundation of the world", and this that we now see in revelation, is just that creation that "was" is just being "revealed" "as it is written." Likewise, if we say that it "is" written, therefore "this" is that time in which He writes it...this too is correct. But if we say, that because it "is" written, therefore it "is" now that God "is" creating things...this is not correct, because that would mean that it is not written, when God has said that it "is."

But I wouldn't trouble yourself about it.