satan a creature or man without God

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amadeus

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Is Michael fighting against a figment of his imagination, or some "yearning" within him or is this a separate entity? If this isn't a separate entity, then what does that make Michael?
Who is Michael and who are the angels? Where and what is heaven? The problem is that someone has found answers to all of those questions. The devil in us is no more a figment of our imagination than the sins we have committed because the devil in us is our imagination. This only shows that a devil exists rather than that devil is something other than our own old man wanting us to leave God and pursue sin.

There are real battles occurring. Is there a physical location or a spiritual location or some other kind of location? Insisting that satan is a red critter with a long pointed tail and horns on his head is not something readily supported by scripture even if you leave out the redness, the tail and the horns.

Angels are certainly a reference to men while some of the references may speak of creatures dwelling in some heavenly domain with God. Michael may be one of those of heavenly origin along with Gabriel who appeared to Mary. Perhaps the battle was men [angels] of God assisted by a heavenly helper against their own beastly selves to avoid falling like our brother Jimmy Swaggert.
 

amadeus

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Well, if you don't believe Satan was a real entity or person, why would you believe Jesus was?

I mean if Satan is our bad self, why isn't Jesus our good self.

Stranger
We needed a Redeemer. We already had an adversary. God knew that and sent what was needed. There was nothing in man capable of defeating satan, whoever he was.
 
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aspen

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It is true - we are our own worst enemy. Yet, i do not believe the incomplete nature of our ego / old man rules out the exostence of angels
 
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Dcopymope

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Who is Michael and who are the angels? Where and what is heaven?


Heaven is where God resides, but I'm sure you know that.

Insisting that satan is a red critter with a long pointed tail and horns on his head is not something readily supported by scripture even if you leave out the redness, the tail and the horns.

Where did I ever say Satan was red and had a tail with horns on his head? Here is his actual appearance.

(Ezekiel 28:12-17) "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. {13} Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {14} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. {15} Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. {16} By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. {17} Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Satan is not some monstrous looking being as he has been typically portrayed. The real Devil, the serpent from the garden, is a shining example of a pretty boy, not like some villain from works of fiction.

Angels are certainly a reference to men while some of the references may speak of creatures dwelling in some heavenly domain with God. Michael may be one of those of heavenly origin along with Gabriel who appeared to Mary. Perhaps the battle was men [angels] of God assisted by a heavenly helper against their own beastly selves to avoid falling like our brother Jimmy Swaggert.

Where are the scriptures stating that angels are or ever were human?
 

amadeus

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Heaven is where God resides, but I'm sure you know that.

To what does this verse refer?
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven." II Cor 12:2

And this one?
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13


Where did I ever say Satan was red and had a tail with horns on his head? Here is his actual appearance.
I am very glad you did not. But those verses you posted [from Ezekiel 28] speak of the prince of Tyrus a city located just to the north of Israel. How do we show that this prince of a gentile city was really satan?


Satan is not some monstrous looking being as he has been typically portrayed. The real Devil, the serpent from the garden, is a shining example of a pretty boy, not like some villain from works of fiction.
Or he is just the worst part of what each of us views in mirror each morning.
Where are the scriptures stating that angels are or ever were human?
An angel is simply a messenger. All of the prophets in the OT sent by God were messengers. The same Hebrew word in the OT is translated both as messenger or as angel.

In the NT John the Baptist is called a messenger [Matt 11:10], but the Greek word translated in that verse as messenger is also translated in other places as angel [Matt 28:2].
[/quote]
 

twinc

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To what does this verse refer?
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven." II Cor 12:2

And this one?
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13



I am very glad you did not. But those verses you posted [from Ezekiel 28] speak of the prince of Tyrus a city located just to the north of Israel. How do we show that this prince of a gentile city was really satan?



Or he is just the worst part of what each of us views in mirror each morning.

An angel is simply a messenger. All of the prophets in the OT sent by God were messengers. The same Hebrew word in the OT is translated both as messenger or as angel.


he NT John the Baptist is called a messenger [Matt 11:10], but the Greek word translated in that verse as messenger is also translated in other places as angel [Matt 28:2].
[/QUOTE]

Ah now Amadeus - how I admire your struggling to make some sense out of the status quo - but I have stated elsewhere that that we are advised to simply simply simply believe or enter the long hard slog of trying to find answers - so lets just stick with Satan who is not all lit up but Lucifer is for the very latin word means light described elsewhere as the morning star - so does anyone really grasp how bright a star is and would be if close up - just simply believe as some say dumb Catholics do - so here you are into Astronomy and your other questions are in the realms of philosophy another hard slog imho - twinc
 
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Stranger

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We needed a Redeemer. We already had an adversary. God knew that and sent what was needed. There was nothing in man capable of defeating satan, whoever he was.

Still, according to you, Jesus might just be our good self. Rising to the occasion.

Stranger
 

amadeus

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Ah now Amadeus - how I admire your struggling to make some sense out of the status quo - but I have stated elsewhere that that we are advised to simply simply simply believe or enter the long hard slog of trying to find answers - so lets just stick with Satan who is not all lit up but Lucifer is for the very latin word means light described elsewhere as the morning star - so does anyone really grasp how bright a star is and would be if close up - just simply believe as some say dumb Catholics do - so here you are into Astronomy and your other questions are in the realms of philosophy another hard slog imho - twinc
[/QUOTE]
Astronomy?I think not. I know little of the subject. I do simply believe what I believe. I opened this up not to prove or disprove but simply for all of us to search. For the purpose of this thread I do lean toward no separate devil entity, but there is too much evidence for the other side for me to stubbornly refuse theirs as a possibility.

You just keep on believing as you do twinc. God knows your heart and your heart is where He weighs things for His final judgment.
 
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amadeus

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Still, according to you, Jesus might just be our good self. Rising to the occasion.

Stranger
You brought up the possibility. I could understand someone believing that, but I do not believe it. On satan the evidence for a separate creature is there, but it is to me flimsy, whereas the evidence in the other direction is also there. I don't lean on it strongly which is why I generally don't mention it much. The quoted posts of two other people here caused me to start this thread really in hope of learning something new. So far you are the only one who made a larger than usual dent in where I stand with the idea of Jesus also not being a separate entity. That I had never thought of previously. I thank you for the thought.
 
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amadeus

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Jude 1:9 loses meaning if angels are not real creatures.
Sorry I overlooked your post earlier... What does Jude 1:9 mean that would cause a loss of meaning?

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

The truth whatever it is will remain no matter what we believe... whether I am right or you and others are right on this thing with regard to satan.

On the verse from Jude, I see the body of Moses as the body of the laws given to the man Moses. The devil would be those who sought to retain the old covenant while Michael was contending for the better Way through Christ.
 

amadeus

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It is true - we are our own worst enemy. Yet, i do not believe the incomplete nature of our ego / old man rules out the exostence of angels
But I believe in two kinds of angels according to scripture. There are the men sent by God and there as the heavenly beings sent by God. Both would correctly be called angels of messengers.
 
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Dcopymope

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I am very glad you did not. But those verses you posted [from Ezekiel 28] speak of the prince of Tyrus a city located just to the north of Israel. How do we show that this prince of a gentile city was really satan?

The pride that led to Satan's fall into iniquity is compared to the pride of the king of Tyre, just like the pride of the king of Babylon is compared to that of the Devil by the prophet Isaiah.

(Isaiah 14:11-15) "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee[. {12} How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

The king of Tyre cannot claim to be an "anointed cherub", nor was he ever present in Eden. The only ones present in Eden was Adam, Eve, and that old serpent, the Devil.

Or he is just the worst part of what each of us views in mirror each morning.

If that was the case, then Jesus Christ wouldn't be referring to the Devil as a HE, an actual person or entity, just like God is referred to as a HE.

(John 8:42-44) "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but HE sent me. {43} Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. {44} Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Again, just like the pride and lusts of the King of Tyre and Babylon are compared to Satan, so to are the lusts and pride of the Jews compared to that of the Devil. A comparison to Satan doesn't automatically mean he isn't a real being.

But I believe in two kinds of angels according to scripture. There are the men sent by God and there as the heavenly beings sent by God. Both would correctly be called angels of messengers.

You have yet to provide the scripture showing angels to be simply men.
 
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tigger 2

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The NT Greek word for 'messengers' is the same as for heavenly messengers - aggelous (angels). See Luke 9:52 and 1 Cor. 6:3 in an interlinear.
 
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Stranger

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You brought up the possibility. I could understand someone believing that, but I do not believe it. On satan the evidence for a separate creature is there, but it is to me flimsy, whereas the evidence in the other direction is also there. I don't lean on it strongly which is why I generally don't mention it much. The quoted posts of two other people here caused me to start this thread really in hope of learning something new. So far you are the only one who made a larger than usual dent in where I stand with the idea of Jesus also not being a separate entity. That I had never thought of previously. I thank you for the thought.

I differ. You brought up the possibility when you say satan could just be our bad self. Thus if you can interpret satan just as our bad self, then there is nothing to stop you or others interpreting Jesus as our good self. In other words, it would be consistent with your interpretation.

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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@bbyrd009 @pia




The two above posts on another thread brought this thing of satan to my mind. While I have seen and heard many arguments in favor of the existence of the external entity called by that name, I have long discounted his existence as a separate being. Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

In school many years ago I was taught that darkness is simply the absence of light. Why would this not be so in the case of the Light? Does not Jesus say that He is the light of the world?

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

With regard to this supposed creation named satan, when was he created or born?

Where was satan’s beginning?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8

Even as Judas and Peter were devils was not Adam also a devil, the first devil? Was he not the first man that committed a sin. He sinned from the beginning.

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen 1:31

Before Adam sinned everything God created was “very good”.

Even Adam was “very good”. But…God had given Adam something He had not given the rest of His creation: the ability to make informed choices.

Those choices included the ability to move into darkness, a place without the Light of God. Both Adam and Eve moved in that direction away from the Light and into the satanic darkness.

The serpent spoke to Eve or... was it the dark yearnings within her that spoke to her since it involved disobeying God and His Way of Light...


Mark 8:33 [33] But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

I don't believe for a second Peter was ever Satan. His behavior was against God's will and plan and Jesus rebuked that behavior, which was behavior of the flesh. Maybe you will say that proves your point. I have even experienced a rebuke from the Spirit when something I do is against God's will and plan. It is obvious. Jesus handled Peter differently than Judas (a son of perdition).John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus kept each of the disciples(all those that are His), except Judas, so that scripture might be fulfilled.

Zechariah 3:1-2
[1] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord , and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

What I believe Jesus was saying concerning Peter was: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? This one is mine. With Judas, it was different. Judas was turned over to Satan: a vessel fitted for destruction. John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (I won't get sidetracked on what that means for Judas.)

How can Satan enter Judas if Satan is not outside of Judas? I will say, Amadeus. I have thought the same thing as what you suggest in the thread. The flesh is ugly and the deeds of the flesh are all attributes of Satan. There, are times, I feel very much like there is a devil on my back. They are interconnected though, are they not? Satan and the flesh.

As when Christ enters us; He steers and guides us in the path of righteousness. Without Christ, the flesh goes the way of Balaam. And who knows, there may be some truth to what you have shared, although I will say the closer I become to God, the more I notice the Spiritual, rather than the physical. Rather than say the Spiritual are common man behavior(good or bad)...I can not help but see it as so much more: the unseen more real than that which is only temporary and fading away. To see there is something outside of man.

2 Kings 6:16-17 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. [17] And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord , I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

No. I don't believe he saw actual horses and chariots of fire around Elisha. But I fully believe what He saw was the power of God surrounding Elisha: a power that was outside of Elisha; not in Elisha.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."


But what do I know? It changes daily as He reveals more.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.
 
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bbyrd009

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I don't think it will matter what verse you cite clearly showing Satan as a literal being, which is why threads like this need to be cast into the fiery pit of 'unorthodox doctrine' where it belongs.
i guess it prolly comes across as trying to attack a belief, a sacred cow, perhaps; but i recommend holding on to the belief as long as you like, and just considering any other perspective as a theory, for the fruit of understanding that that might yield. If it doesn't yield fruit, then toss it imo
 
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DPMartin

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I agree 110%. And we all wonder why the faith has become such a laughing stock in the eyes of the world, its mainly because of these goofy, weirdo beliefs. When you have believers stating something that is clearly the exact opposite of everything stated from the book they believe to be "God breathed", then they aren't giving unbelievers a legitimate reason to give the faith they claim to have the light of day. If Satan isn't a real entity, then who the hell is the angel Michael fighting against in heaven? Is he fighting against a figment of his imagination, some "dark yearning" within him?


that is absolutely correct, thing is even an atheist can read and comprehend what text is there and is not, and in what context its in. these people can't do that much, either that, or its their full intention to make Christianity fit their views and what they think in their own judgements of what is good and evil and what Christianity and God ought to be in the same.

if you notice more often then not, people post here and other Christian forums too, to test if their own BS will stick, and if it is believable or not. and if that don't work they come back with another version of the same BS. in the name of we should be open minded because the world says that's right.

In all honesty why are they here? religion is an entity in human society to keep God out of their world in the first place. the people who walk with the Living God walk in the world with Him in their daily lives. not in some place or state of mind separate from the world. we must remember the world was made by Him.


Joh_1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
 
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