Catholic Church Teachings

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waynemlj

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Hi Letsgofishing,1) Gen 3:15 Does not have any connection to Mary being born without sin. It speaks of Eve and her sin and the consequences of that sin. God will put enmity between Satan and Eve and "...between your (Satan's) offspring and her (Eve's) offspring (Jesus). He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel (Bracketed additions are mine)." Jesus will defeat Satan but Satan will bring about Jesus' crucifixion. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Mary personally.2) The new testament language is consistent. "Brothers" means brothers and "sisters" means sisters. Proof of that can be seen in Luke 2:36 The angel is still speaking to Mary when he says, "And, behold, thy cousin Elizabeth, she has also conceived a son in her old age . . ." The word "cousin" was used in this conversation, proving the difference between cousin and brother/sister.And James who wrote the Book of James is historically recognized as Jesus' half-brother, fathered by Joseph.3) Paul never, ever prayed for the dead. Onesiphorus was a companion to Paul and went with Paul to many of his places of ministry. Paul is simply giving an account of those who abandoned him and praising Onesiphorus for his faithful service for which he asks God to give him a great reward at the end of time. Onesiphorus had not died. He was quite alive at the moment of Paul's payer.Anyway, common sense should cause you to pause and ask, "Why would we pray for the dead?" There is a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the lost. God is in control of the soul once it passes through death and is that soul's Judge for reward in Heaven or punshment to Hell. It's too late to pray for a soul once the person has died!Nowhere in the entire Bible does God say to pray for the dead.4) You make a distiction between praying to the saints and asking the saints to pray for us. But that is STILL praying to the saints, isn't it?. All prayer is to be directed to the Father and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit (to God alone). The Catholic Church is unbiblical in this practice.5) I don't have to look up any site on the subject of Purgatory which is nothing but a dogma of the Church. There are not three resurrections, just two. One is the resurrection of the saved unto eternal life; the other is the resurrection of the lost unto eternal damnation. It will be judgement time based on the finished work of Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead. No intermediate state is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. No purgatory!!waynemlj
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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"Why would we pray for the dead?"
I have to ask this out of pure curosity cause its killing me "But do you believe in ghosts?" And why not pray for the dead they are no less human because they are dead. Just curious. I have not gotten used to this denominational attack mode that everyone seems to be in about the RCC.
smile.gif
 

winsome

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4) You make a distiction between praying to the saints and asking the saints to pray for us. But that is STILL praying to the saints, isn't it?. All prayer is to be directed to the Father and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit (to God alone).
No it doesn't The problem here is that protestants try to redefine English words, narrowing their meaning and then cry foul when Catholics use them in the original fuller meaning.Take prayer. What does it really mean - from the Online Entymology Dictionaryc.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari. So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray” Protestants try to narrow the word pray to mean only addressing God. But we can ask earnestly anyone. If we pray to the saints, we are only addressing them and earnestly asking them for their intercession.Jane Austin, one of the great English writers, has characters that use the word pray in the above sense - to ask earnestly.We ask the saints for their intercession on our behalf. This is not praying to the dead. The saints in heaven are alive. They are part of the body of Christ.
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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No it doesn't The problem here is that protestants try to redefine English words, narrowing their meaning and then cry foul when Catholics use them in the original fuller meaning.Take prayer. What does it really mean - from the Online Entymology Dictionaryc.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari. So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray” Protestants try to narrow the word pray to mean only addressing God. But we can ask earnestly anyone. If we pray to the saints, we are only addressing them and earnestly asking them for their intercession.Jane Austin, one of the great English writers, has characters that use the word pray in the above sense - to ask earnestly.We ask the saints for their intercession on our behalf. This is not praying to the dead. The saints in heaven are alive. They are part of the body of Christ.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bible:
 

winsome

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5) I don't have to look up any site on the subject of Purgatory which is nothing but a dogma of the Church. No intermediate state is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. No purgatory!!waynemlj
Purgatory is indeed a dogma. A dogma is a revealed truth defined by the Church. It is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture.The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.”Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b: "The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months." Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a: "It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin): (1) one that is completely righteous, (2) one that is completely wicked, (3) and one that is in between."Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process. Purgatory and ScripturePurgatory is about sanctification. It is about the consequences of sin not the punishment of the sins themselves. We are born into a sinful condition. “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.” (psalm 51:5). During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8). Or as St. Paul put it “So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27). We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.“For I am the Lord your God; sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.” (Lv 11:44)‘as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”’ (1 Pet1:15-16) “Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Heb 12:14)There are several texts that speak of purification by fire:“For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.” (Mal 3:2-3)“In this you rejoice even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1Pet 1:6-7)“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15). When Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works)"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;like gold in the furnace he tried them,and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)So what are the consequences of sin that make us unfit for heaven until we have been purified? There are three. When we sin we (may) damage others. We damage ourselves and we damage our relationship with God.We damage others in terms of their reputation, their self worth, their bodies, their goods etc. Justice demands that, as far as possible, we make amends for the damage we have done. We repair it by reparation.We damage ourselves in that each time we sin we fall deeper into a pattern of sin, into disorder.We damage our relationship with God in that each time we sin we turn away from God to created things . We do not just turn away from God but towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-22. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them. We need to repent. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%. This is sanctification, being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully sanctified before we can enter heaven. Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.
 

waynemlj

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Hi Two,Once you leave this Earth, you are in a totally different realm, an eternal and spiritual realm. God is in control of that realm so that no one who goes to heaven needs any help from you or me. He/she has the finished, perfect relationship with God. If the soul has not accepted salvation from judgement provided by the cross of Jesus Christ, that soul has already been judged by the perfect Justice of God and banished from His sight into Hell for Eternity. Your prayers will have no effect on God's Sovereign Justice, nor will they have any effect on God's Sovereign Goodness which has already given the saved soul COMPLETE happiness.Again, I ask the question, "What do you think your prayers are going to do to change anything beyond this life?Do you see the point? We are very small, finite creatures. God is INFINITE BEING who has FINISHED His plan for that soul. It's over!One way or the other.waynemlj
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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Purgatory is indeed a dogma. A dogma is a revealed truth defined by the Church. It is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture.The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.”Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b: "The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months." Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a: "It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin): (1) one that is completely righteous, (2) one that is completely wicked, (3) and one that is in between."Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process. Purgatory and ScripturePurgatory is about sanctification. It is about the consequences of sin not the punishment of the sins themselves. We are born into a sinful condition. “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.” (psalm 51:5). During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8). Or as St. Paul put it “So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27). We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.“For I am the Lord your God; sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.” (Lv 11:44)‘as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”’ (1 Pet1:15-16) “Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Heb 12:14)There are several texts that speak of purification by fire:“For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.” (Mal 3:2-3)“In this you rejoice even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1Pet 1:6-7)“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15). When Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works)"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;like gold in the furnace he tried them,and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)So what are the consequences of sin that make us unfit for heaven until we have been purified? There are three. When we sin we (may) damage others. We damage ourselves and we damage our relationship with God.We damage others in terms of their reputation, their self worth, their bodies, their goods etc. Justice demands that, as far as possible, we make amends for the damage we have done. We repair it by reparation.We damage ourselves in that each time we sin we fall deeper into a pattern of sin, into disorder.We damage our relationship with God in that each time we sin we turn away from God to created things . We do not just turn away from God but towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-22. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them. We need to repent. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%. This is sanctification, being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully sanctified before we can enter heaven. Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn’t.
Agreed.............:bible:
 

DrBubbaLove

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waynemlj;36130]1) Gen 3:15 Does not have any connection to Mary being born without sin. It speaks of Eve and her sin and the consequences of that sin. God will put enmity between Satan and Eve and "...between your (Satan said:
If by historical you mean in some circles the last 500 years or so, then we agree brother.
3) Paul never, ever prayed for the dead. Onesiphorus was a companion to Paul and went with Paul to many of his places of ministry. Paul is simply giving an account of those who abandoned him and praising Onesiphorus for his faithful service for which he asks God to give him a great reward at the end of time. Onesiphorus had not died. He was quite alive at the moment of Paul's payer.
We are talking about 2 Tim 1:16-18. Am not sure how you could know whether Onesiphorus was alive or dead at that moment. The early Christian writings support an understanding that he was not. We know from other writings that he is numbered among the "disciples" of Jesus (one of the 70) and that he is said to have been martyred.At best one could claim Onesiphorus was not there in his house when Paul offers this prayer and from the language of asking mercy on his family he was probably detained somewhere else against his will and possibly in danger of dying. Would give you that. But if that were the case, rather than just speaking kindly of things Onesiphorus had done for Paul, you would think Paul would pray for and ask everyone to pray for his safe return and maybe if not for a merciful death. Paul does not do that. Neither does Paul mention Onesiphorus in the closing (4:19), but again only the family. Obviously Paul felt warmly about Onesiphorus. If he were still alive it would be a bit odd and something of a slam to mention specific people's names but only Onesiphorus entire family. You could counter that Paul means everyone including Onesiphorus, yet it would still be odd to mention the other individuals in the same sentence with the "entire family" and not also single out a person he began the letter praising. More fitting for someone still living and worthy of Paul's praise would have been a salute to Onesiphorus AND his entire family.
Anyway, common sense should cause you to pause and ask, "Why would we pray for the dead?" There is a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the lost. God is in control of the soul once it passes through death and is that soul's Judge for reward in Heaven or punshment to Hell. It's too late to pray for a soul once the person has died!
Well in a view that holds those going to Heaven must first pass through Purgatory, we would have not only a reason, but want to pray for those souls. We do not assume to know who is going to Heaven or Hell. Strictly speaking a person going to Hell could not need or use our prayers. Since we cannot know and do pray for the souls going to Heaven, am not sure how we could be considered wrong by God to have prayed for someone who has died and gone to Hell.
Nowhere in the entire Bible does God say to pray for the dead.
Not explicitly, but as you know we say it is implied even by our Lord and that the instances already given including Macabee's, and Paul show someone praying for the dead. We admit you do not agree those instances do so, and we can only agree to disagree there.However, we both know we all do things as Christians that are not explicit commands in the Bible, so pointing out that there is no explicit command must not be what we use to either prohibit or endorse a practice. We are told repeatedly to pray for one another, pray for all believers. There is nothing in that explicit command to suggest "believers" excludes those we count as Christians that have gone before us. Nor is there anything to suggest that those gone before us are to stop praying for "one another". And as already mentioned we that believe in Purgatory for all going to Heaven, we have a reason to pray for those there. We understand you do NOT believe in Purgatory and therefore could not have or see this reasoning.
4) You make a distiction between praying to the saints and asking the saints to pray for us. But that is STILL praying to the saints, isn't it?. All prayer is to be directed to the Father and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit (to God alone).
Only if one considers asking your mom or dad or any other believer to pray for you to be a prayer to that person. Strictly speaking prayer can mean to talk/communicate with someone, so in that sense you could say asking anyone to pray for us is a prayer to that person. We have to ask is it such a terrible thing to ask someone to pray to God for us, on our behalf? And if one believes all the angels, saints and hosts in Heaven can hear our prayers (and Catholics do) is it such a terrible thing to ask the same to pray to God on our behalf?
The Catholic Church is unbiblical in this practice.
You say so, but then that would be why I am Catholic and you are not. It cannot be said that Catholics have no biblical reason to do so, we do and it has been given to you. It can only be said that you do not see it or agree with it.
5) I don't have to look up any site on the subject of Purgatory which is nothing but a dogma of the Church.
No, you don't "have to". Personally to intelligently speak of something, even to argue against it, I find it helpful to first understand what one is talking about. It would be why I have read the book of Mormon. Otherwise, how can I not look foolish speaking about something for which I have no understanding?
There are not three resurrections, just two. One is the resurrection of the saved unto eternal life; the other is the resurrection of the lost unto eternal damnation.
See, this exactly what I mean by looking foolish. Purgatory does not represent to a Catholic a death or a resurrection.
It will be judgement time based on the finished work of Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead.
Yes, the final judgement is possible because of what Jesus did. But this had nothing to do with Purgatory.
No intermediate state is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. No purgatory!!waynemlj
No, the word is not there but as shown already, we do believe such a process that we call Purgatory is referred to in scripture (burning as if by fire does not sound pleasant but the person makes it to Heaven). We agree you do not see that as such a reference.clearly we also see a reason for praying for the dead, and we also see people praying for the dead in scripture and that reason being a Purgatory for those going to Heaven. We agree you do not see those references as being what we represent them to be (and in the one clearest case you don't have the book in your Bible).We also note that while you wish to see this as a ROMAN Catholic invention, the early writers (before there were "Roman" Catholics) also speek of praying for the dead and Purgatory. The graffitti on the catacombs show early Christians during Roman persecutions offered prayers for the dead. So we agree that you disagree not only with us and our Roman Catholic teachings, but that you also disagree with the earliest Christians as well.
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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Whats the big deal with praying for the dead? It may not help but if it helps the person praying for the dead then so what.
 

Letsgofishing

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Wow Bubba your amazing thanks for answering his/her questionsThought I should point out a couple of verses in favor of purgatory.1 peter 3: 18-2018For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.1 peter 4:66For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.Note that it is a prison for disobediant spirits, and yet they are saved when Jesus preached to them. This is not hell, because no one is saved from hell. This is not the " limbo of the fathers" or sheol ( where the OT saints resided before the death of Jesus) because sheol is not a place for disobediant spirits. One cannot imagine that he is mentioning the residing place of David, Isiah, and John the baptist as a prison for disobediant spirits.Therefore there must be another realm where people be cleansed and saved. I don't know what you call it. I call it purgatory.
 

waynemlj

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Hi Winsome,This statement you made in your Reply is untrue, "A dogma is a revealed truth defined by the Church. It is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture."A dogma is a made-up and fanciful idea of churchmen and popes throughout the history of the Catholic Church. Dogmas almost always contradict Scripture. They are falsehoods. Examples: 1) Mary was conceived without sin. Scripture says in Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The word ALL includes Mary.Also read Romans 3:10-18.2) Mary was ever virgin. Another dogma; another lie taught by the Catholic Church. Mary and Joseph were husband and wife. What does that say to you about dogmas? Matthew 1:20, "But as he considered these things, behold, an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.' "In fact Mary and Joseph had four other sons and several daughters; one of those sons was James who wrote the Book of James.Be sure that dogmas are to be questioned by searching the Truth in God's Word. 3) Mary was assumed into heaven. It's not in the Bible. Another dogmatic falsehood.4) Purgatory ... a temporary place of suffering after death to prepare the soul for Heaven. Another dogma. Another lie. There aren't three resurrections, only two. One is the resurrection to eternal life with God in Heaven; the other is the resurrection to eternal death in Hell with Satan and his angels. That's what the cross of Christ is all about . . . the complete, once-for-all forgiveness of the sins of the believer!5) The Catholic Church prays for the dead in every Mass. There is no place anywhere in the Bible to support that church practice . . . another dogma!And there are many, many more dogmas... all of them unscriptural.waynemlj
 

Jordan

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Wonderful post waynemlj. I agree 100%. What is interesting is there is no word in the Bible uses the word Catholic.Am I against people who call themselves that, No.Am I against the Catholic doctrines? Yes, because it contradicts the bible.Whatsoever the word is not in the bible, must have many false doctrines.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

winsome

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(waynemlj;36469)
Hi Winsome,This statement you made in your Reply is untrue, "A dogma is a revealed truth defined by the Church. It is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture."A dogma is a made-up and fanciful idea of churchmen and popes throughout the history of the Catholic Church. Dogmas almost always contradict Scripture. They are falsehoods. Examples: 1) Mary was conceived without sin. Scripture says in Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The word ALL includes Mary.Also read Romans 3:10-18.2) Mary was ever virgin. Another dogma; another lie taught by the Catholic Church. Mary and Joseph were husband and wife. What does that say to you about dogmas? Matthew 1:20, "But as he considered these things, behold, an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.' "In fact Mary and Joseph had four other sons and several daughters; one of those sons was James who wrote the Book of James.Be sure that dogmas are to be questioned by searching the Truth in God's Word. 3) Mary was assumed into heaven. It's not in the Bible. Another dogmatic falsehood.4) Purgatory ... a temporary place of suffering after death to prepare the soul for Heaven. Another dogma. Another lie. There aren't three resurrections, only two. One is the resurrection to eternal life with God in Heaven; the other is the resurrection to eternal death in Hell with Satan and his angels. That's what the cross of Christ is all about . . . the complete, once-for-all forgiveness of the sins of the believer!5) The Catholic Church prays for the dead in every Mass. There is no place anywhere in the Bible to support that church practice . . . another dogma!And there are many, many more dogmas... all of them unscriptural.waynemlj
These points have already been answered in this thread. Why don't you read the answers and respond to the points made if you disagree (if you can), otherwise there is no point in discussing it with you.
 

DrBubbaLove

New Member
Jan 17, 2008
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sometimes people hope that if they repeat something enough times it must be true and others will believe it.