Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

Truth · Jan 27, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Funny how Jesus said according to teh bible,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and here we have christians with no life because they wont go to the one who is life,

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh_6:48 I am that bread of life.

Stranger said,[ His actual Reality] which I liked. To quote Him Jesus said I AM, kinda like God said I AM, let me continue. Jesus said I AM the Way the Truth and The Life,

well what do you think, If Jesus had said I AM the Way, the Reality, and the Life. would that be an understatement?
The actual reality is that Our Savior through His Holy Spirit, is the Only One to bring the Truth to those that Hunger and Thirst for IT! Oh by the way Jesus is the Bread of Life, Manna was a foreshadowing of Our Savior. Do you know what Biet Lechem means? Bethlehem!!! which means House of Bread, did you know that the Temple Priests had sheepfolds just out side of Bethlehem, so the bread of Life was Born in the House of Bread, and the Lamb of God was born within the area of the sheepfolds of the Temple's needs. If only people would go beyond the teaching's of the established Church, and look into the Culture of our predecessors, there is great understanding at your fingertip's. just a click away! in the last day's Knowledge will en-cress!!!

Truth · Jan 27, 2018

pia said:
That is so true, but what surprises me the most, is that a lot of the 'hate' comes from people who say they are Christians....just have a good look at some of the writings here on the forum, enough to make a grown ,man cry lol....

I do, literally, many are called BUT FEW are chosen, and I am of the least. My Savior brought to me a Love that surpassed anything I had or ever experienced, so why not try to give out Info that is contrary to the Norm. We have been deceived to the truth, for almost two thousand years. And I am a grown Man, and I do cry for those that think I am a joke! and that's OK

mjrhealth · Jan 27, 2018

Truth said:
Stranger said,[ His actual Reality] which I liked. To quote Him Jesus said I AM, kinda like God said I AM, let me continue. Jesus said I AM the Way the Truth and The Life,

well what do you think, If Jesus had said I AM the Way, the Reality, and the Life. would that be an understatement?
The actual reality is that Our Savior through His Holy Spirit, is the Only One to bring the Truth to those that Hunger and Thirst for IT! Oh by the way Jesus is the Bread of Life, Manna was a foreshadowing of Our Savior. Do you know what Biet Lechem means? Bethlehem!!! which means House of Bread, did you know that the Temple Priests had sheepfolds just out side of Bethlehem, so the bread of Life was Born in the House of Bread, and the Lamb of God was born within the area of the sheepfolds of the Temple's needs. If only people would go beyond the teaching's of the established Church, and look into the Culture of our predecessors, there is great understanding at your fingertip's. just a click away! in the last day's Knowledge will en-cress!!!

Ye but he didnt say men would get any smarter, and the knowledge he was speaking of, is not of God, but of this world, look at how much info we have at hand yet we still spend our whole existence destroying ourselves.

All i need to know is Jesus is my bread, if i eat from Him than I shall grow and be strong in Him, hat is something all the study and learning in the world cannot do. Men will hold onto that they should let go...

pia · Jan 27, 2018

mjrhealth said:
All i need to know is Jesus is my bread, if i eat from Him than I shall grow and be strong in Him, hat is something all the study and learning in the world cannot do

Extremely well put...A big amen !

Naomi25 · Jan 28, 2018

Stranger said:
Amillennial or Dispensational interpretation would matter if you want to jump to the question of fulfillment of these passages in Deuteronomy. But, to do that, we move from a time when Israel was preparing to come into the land to at least your time of 70 A.D. And I wasn't trying to argue that at this time. I was just trying to establish in the historical setting the reality of a Tribulation period and eventually its duration of 7 years.

God has wrought out His work of Salvation in the movement of history. And is still working it out. The whole Old Testament is for our benefit to learn of this great salvation and learn something of God Himself. As far as relevance, I believe it is all relevant for the Church. Just because I see a distinction between the Church and Israel, does not mean the Old Testament has no relevance for me. The whole Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:27,44-45) How is my learning about Jesus Christ not relevant?

Stranger

Lol!

Every time I think I'm on track with understanding where we are conversation wise...apparently I'm not! I think you and I must think on different wave lengths...or just talk so differently that it makes no difference! I want to continue this conversation, but I'm afraid frustration will inevitably follow after a few more posts of me clearly missing your point.

But I'll give it one last try.

I think part of my problem is: ....why wouldn't I jump to the fulfillment, as my original question was based around eschatology? I can understand you going back to the OT and looking for passages that point forward to the time at the end we're trying to establish. Am I to understand that you are also using the Deut passage to prove a sort of precedent? That what has already been done once by God can clearly be done again? That's all well and good, but you must excuse me for thinking about, as you say, the final fulfillment, as it outright states that the tribulation will come in the 'latter days'.

I suppose, (again assuming I'm following your logic correctly!) that when we weave together the previous occasions, as you've mentioned, plus specific mentions of a seven year period in Daniel; that is where Dispensationalist draw their doctrine from? And then, I suppose, I must ask myself what is the purpose of these seven years? I found it interesting that in Daniel 9:24 it specifically speaks of "your people and holy city". That's quite specific and I don't deny that there is a very strong case here for both Jews and Jerusalem to be in sight.

I might leave it there...enough wild speculating for the moment! I'm sure you'll let me know if I've missed the target again!

GodsGrace · Jan 28, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
GodsGrace, I am right there with you in being confused, so in no way is this leading or disagreeing with you. You said Christ has a glorified body. Who is His body?

I'm not sure what you mean.
The glorified body belongs to Jesus.
It's the same body WE will all have when we go to be with our Lord.
There is:
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

When Jesus returned to the Father after the resurrection, He had a glorified body. Never to get sick again, never to die again.
Now we see as in a mirror darkly, but one day we will come face to face with Him and be as He is.

101G · Jan 28, 2018

GINOLJC, to all.
@VJ, @GG, and BG.
on the Glorified body read, 1 Corinthians 15 starting at verse 35.

understand, a Glorified body in not something spiritual, or ethereal. but a body dominated by the Spirit.

now as some others, who don't understand, of "a" body, individual ownership, and "THE" body collective. the body of Christ is a collective body of individual whom he dwells in. see John 14:23. because Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit". this is what he was meaning one with the Father. our bodies is a HOLY TEMPLE for GOD to dwell in with US.

PCY.

Stranger · Jan 28, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Lol! Every time I think I'm on track with understanding where we are conversation wise...apparently I'm not! I think you and I must think on different wave lengths...or just talk so differently that it makes no difference! I want to continue this conversation, but I'm afraid frustration will inevitably follow after a few more posts of me clearly missing your point.

But I'll give it one last try.

I think part of my problem is: ....why wouldn't I jump to the fulfillment, as my original question was based around eschatology? I can understand you going back to the OT and looking for passages that point forward to the time at the end we're trying to establish. Am I to understand that you are also using the Deut passage to prove a sort of precedent? That what has already been done once by God can clearly be done again? That's all well and good, but you must excuse me for thinking about, as you say, the final fulfillment, as it outright states that the tribulation will come in the 'latter days'.

I suppose, (again assuming I'm following your logic correctly!) that when we weave together the previous occasions, as you've mentioned, plus specific mentions of a seven year period in Daniel; that is where Dispensationalist draw their doctrine from? And then, I suppose, I must ask myself what is the purpose of these seven years? I found it interesting that in Daniel 9:24 it specifically speaks of "your people and holy city". That's quite specific and I don't deny that there is a very strong case here for both Jews and Jerusalem to be in sight.

I might leave it there...enough wild speculating for the moment! I'm sure you'll let me know if I've missed the target again!

In the Deuteronomy passages I gave I simply wanted to show that God knew the rebellious road Israel would take. And He promised to her judgement or tribulation even in the latter days as a result.

Before bringing up (Dan. 9:24) I would point out first, that just as God has promised judgement and tribulation upon Israel, so He also promises throughout the prophets, that He will restore Israel as His people.

See her (Israel) chastisement. (Hosea 2:2-13) Then, her restoration. (Hosea 2:14-23)

Her chastisement. (Amos 9:1-10) Then, her restoration. (Amos 9:14-15)

So God promises to Israel tribulation and judgement but also promises to restore her. Would you agree?

Stranger

VictoryinJesus · Jan 28, 2018

GodsGrace said:
I'm not sure what you mean.
The glorified body belongs to Jesus.
It's the same body WE will all have when we go to be with our Lord.
There is:
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

When Jesus returned to the Father after the resurrection, He had a glorified body. Never to get sick again, never to die again.
Now we see as in a mirror darkly, but one day we will come face to face with Him and be as He is.

Just stating that we are members of His body. 1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Known to me means "already". But His word tells us: There are two; the glass dark, and the face to face. Are we not to seek the "face to face"?

There is Carnally minded which is confusion. Or "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" begat of God which is Spirit with the mind of Christ. Why the mind of Christ? Because if you are a member of His body and He is your Head...then are you not already "known".

Is Ezekiel 36:26-27 not now?
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

Proverbs 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Psalm 31:16
[16] Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.

James 1:22-25
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The more we look into the perfect law of liberty (which IS Christ), the more we see "face to face".

Matthew 6:21-23 K
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Where is our treasure?

You said "Now we see as in a mirror darkly, but one day we will come face to face with Him"

Are you not already face to face to Him? HE is IN you!

GodsGrace · Jan 28, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
Just stating that we are members of His body. 1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Known to me means "already". But His word tells us: There are two; the glass dark, and the face to face. Are we not to seek the "face to face"?

There is Carnally minded which is confusion. Or "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" begat of God which is Spirit with the mind of Christ. Why the mind of Christ? Because if you are a member of His body and He is your Head...then are you not already "known".

Is Ezekiel 36:26-27 not now?
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

Proverbs 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Psalm 31:16
[16] Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.

James 1:22-25
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The more we look into the perfect law of liberty (which IS Christ), the more we see "face to face".

Matthew 6:21-23 K
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Where is our treasure?

You said "Now we see as in a mirror darkly, but one day we will come face to face with Him"

Are you not already face to face to Him? HE is IN you!

I agree with your premise, but disagree as to being face to face with Him. I haven't seen Jesus lately.

I do agree that we're members of His Body, the Body of Christ.
But that is NOT the glorified body.

I believe you're speaking about two different concepts.
The glorified body belongs to Jesus. It is HIS personal body.

The Body of Christ is made up of all believers.

As to all the rest, do you not hope of seeing Him in person one day?
That's how I understand it. The Holy Spirit is in us and guides us.
But we do not see Jesus.

VictoryinJesus · Jan 28, 2018

GodsGrace said:
I agree with your premise, but disagree as to being face to face with Him. I haven't seen Jesus lately.

I do agree that we're members of His Body, the Body of Christ.
But that is NOT the glorified body.

I believe you're speaking about two different concepts.
The glorified body belongs to Jesus. It is HIS personal body.

The Body of Christ is made up of all believers.

As to all the rest, do you not hope of seeing Him in person one day?
That's how I understand it. The Holy Spirit is in us and guides us.
But we do not see Jesus.

Yes, I hope to see Him. And for me (until He shows me otherwise) it will be when His glory is revealed. That is you. That is me. The saints. All that belong to His body. All will be revealed when Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 5:1
[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

1 Peter 1:5
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 3:2
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:19
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We (the body) glorified and partakers of His glory, are yet to be revealed. I look for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Ephesians 4:12-13
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

He (the Ark) is not yet full. ONE perfect man in unity. Go back and really consider that we "partake" of His glory. We (the body) are of ONE mind. The mind of Christ.

The Son of perdition has a body also. And one mind. The mind of antichrist.
Revelation 17:13
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

So, yes, I wait for Glory because it is all members of His body. Perfection as a whole. Revealed at the same manifestation. One in Christ. I do not expect glorification or perfection before you, or others of the body. Because perfection is collective: a whole, not individuals that believe they contain anything special or separate from the body which belongs to the head.

bbyrd009 · Jan 28, 2018

pia said:
Not even sure what that means....But surely none of us are in this to be popular ? That's silly....

well, my meaning there is that Christians do not live for today, for the most part, and any number of little experiments might be set up to demonstrate this, we even have nursery rhymes about it, "who will help me _____ the _____," like that.

and as for popularity, i guess that concept is closely related to acceptance, validation, some other concepts that we do seek, right, so "popularity" is not really as easy to define succinctly as we maybe think it is? one kind of bleeds over into another?

bbyrd009 · Jan 28, 2018

Truth said:
Eventualy we will be hated for what we hold to, for His Namesake???? They hated Him so you know!!

trust me if strangers hate you it is because you are not showing them love. it is your family that will berate you for treating strangers as if they were family, your characterization makes a duality, it seems to me anyway, an unspecified "they" that is perceived to be whom, exactly? Who is this "they?"

bbyrd009 · Jan 28, 2018

pia said:
That is so true, but what surprises me the most, is that a lot of the 'hate' comes from people who say they are Christians...

ezackly, ty

it is the members of a man's house that will be his enemies

bbyrd009 · Jan 28, 2018

mjrhealth said:
All i need to know is Jesus is my bread, if i eat from Him than I shall grow and be strong in Him, hat is something all the study and learning in the world cannot do.

then the two of you should be doing what Jesus commanded, right? Go to different towns, stay in one house while you are there, and eat what they give you. Of course our model, current definition of "witness" will be overcome here, but oh well. If you wanna exorcise demons, raise the dead, etc, this is how to do it

bbyrd009 · Jan 28, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
Just stating that we are members of His body. 1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Known to me means "already". But His word tells us: There are two; the glass dark, and the face to face. Are we not to seek the "face to face"?

There is Carnally minded which is confusion. Or "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" begat of God which is Spirit with the mind of Christ. Why the mind of Christ? Because if you are a member of His body and He is your Head...then are you not already "known".

Is Ezekiel 36:26-27 not now?
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

Proverbs 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Psalm 31:16
[16] Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.

James 1:22-25
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The more we look into the perfect law of liberty (which IS Christ), the more we see "face to face".

Matthew 6:21-23 K
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Where is our treasure?

You said "Now we see as in a mirror darkly, but one day we will come face to face with Him"

Are you not already face to face to Him? HE is IN you!

Word

VictoryinJesus · Jan 28, 2018

GodsGrace said:
I agree with your premise, but disagree as to being face to face with Him. I haven't seen Jesus lately.

I do agree that we're members of His Body, the Body of Christ.
But that is NOT the glorified body.

I believe you're speaking about two different concepts.
The glorified body belongs to Jesus. It is HIS personal body.

The Body of Christ is made up of all believers.

As to all the rest, do you not hope of seeing Him in person one day?
That's how I understand it. The Holy Spirit is in us and guides us.
But we do not see Jesus.

I must add: consider a member is a "part". There is no way I can know the revelation God has shared with you as a member of the body. There is no way you can know what He has shared with me as a member of the body. Together, edifying one another in Christ; we are perfecting one another in love. We can only "know" in "part" because we are only a member of a whole and can only know the part entrusted to us, as a function for "the body" given by the Head (the mind of Christ/the Spirit). All the parts fittly joined together. But that which are "parts" will be done away with when that which is perfect comes....a complete man. A mature, complete man.

Then there is no more need to impart gifts to one another because "unity of faith" and "glorification of the body" has come; as a whole, and no longer "in part".

1 Corinthians 13:9-10
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Because there will be no need for prophesy, or teaching, or healings, or tongues...because we will have Christ and be glorified as ONE in Christ. No more "parts".

amadeus · Jan 28, 2018

pia said:
That is so true, but what surprises me the most, is that a lot of the 'hate' comes from people who say they are Christians....just have a good look at some of the writings here on the forum, enough to make a grown ,man cry lol....

Not so surprising really! I presume that Australia is like that United States in that respect. There are a lot of people who wear the Christian label, but they are too often [from what I can see] counterfeit. That is, they may talk the talk, but they make little or no sincere effort to walk the walk.

Naomi25 · Jan 28, 2018

Stranger said:
In the Deuteronomy passages I gave I simply wanted to show that God knew the rebellious road Israel would take. And He promised to her judgement or tribulation even in the latter days as a result.

Before bringing up (Dan. 9:24) I would point out first, that just as God has promised judgement and tribulation upon Israel, so He also promises throughout the prophets, that He will restore Israel as His people.

See her (Israel) chastisement. (Hosea 2:2-13) Then, her restoration. (Hosea 2:14-23)

Her chastisement. (Amos 9:1-10) Then, her restoration. (Amos 9:14-15)

So God promises to Israel tribulation and judgement but also promises to restore her. Would you agree?

Stranger

Absolutely. But...I think this is where that interpretation comes into it again. As I have always understood it: Yes God punishes Israel for her unbelief but then brings her back to his mercy and grace...over and over in the OT! It shows us several things. His long-suffering patience and grace, his steadfast promises. But also that human nature is broken, and that we will never be able to keep the covenants we've made with God. That's why God began promising that a new covenant would come...Jesus. Jesus came to make a new way for us:

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8:13

Anyway, you know the deal. So I suppose now I'm wondering, after everything Hebrews and Paul goes to the effort of stressing, why is there still division between the Church and Israel? We know there is but one way to God: Christ, and any Jew who wants to be saved needs to embrace him as their Messiah. So if that's basically exactly the same as it is for us, the Church members (which also includes some Jews!), why do we need to distinguish a difference there? I mean...I can't deny that one exists still this very day. Is it that fact, plus the Roman 9-11 passages that leads you to believe that God will continue with his individual "chastisment - restoration" pattern?

mjrhealth · Jan 29, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
then the two of you should be doing what Jesus commanded, right? Go to different towns, stay in one house while you are there, and eat what they give you. Of course our model, current definition of "witness" will be overcome here, but oh well. If you wanna exorcise demons, raise the dead, etc, this is how to do it

Actually no, we do what we are asked to do, far too many "christians" doing stuff they where never asked to do, and you know how Jesus responded to that one.

And

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

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