Various Questions

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Pildit

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Feb 20, 2008
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(followerofchrist;37046)
Thats exactly how I was...until this summer. I believed all the stuff they told me in church, but I believed it just because I was suppost to, ya know? That what everyone did, I said I was a christian, but I wasn't really. But this summer I finally questioned my faith. I wanted to know if all this stuff was real or if I was just buying into what society told me to. And once I looked into it with an open mind, and sincerely came to God asking him to reveal himself to me and live in my heart because I wanted him to, not because I was suppost to...well I have never been more glad about doing anything in my life!!
Well I have questioned, found no proof... and I find myself here asking people.How did God reveal himself to you? How did you know it was God? If you don't mind me asking.
 

Pildit

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Feb 20, 2008
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I don't mind at all, this is actually what I was planning on PM'ing to you. I will get on that.
Ooooh righto, shall await your PM then!
 

followerofchrist

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Nov 22, 2007
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Well my PM was to long haha! So I will just copy and past my PM here!"Ok, this would probably mean alot more to you if you knew how ironic my deal with God was, i will try and explain either during or at the end.Ok so after years of telling myself that I was a christian and I would go to heaven because i went to church (sometimes) and I prayed (again sometimes) and that that was all I needed. I even prayered the prayers they told us to in church, the prayers for people that wanted to get saved. But I still had doubts. I wasn't sure if I was actually saved, I didn't feel any different and nothing seemed to have changed. And whenever I felt these doubts I would pray these new christian prayers again. This summer I was tired of doubting my self, I decided to really find out once and for all if this was all for real. I knew that if it was i wasn't saved, otherwise I wouldn't have felt the need to accept Jesus into my heart (the prayer) multiple times! So I sat down alone in my room one night and I started talking to God. Basically I decided I was going to fast, I had heard it mentioned in the bible so I figured it would work. The prayer was that I was going to fast until God revealed himself to me or I ended up in the hospital from lack of nutrition. I was serious! I was tired of doubting and I was ready to do whatever it took to find out the truth! Normally in a fast you don't eat anything, maybe one small meal a day, and you only drink water. Well I was all buisness! I wasn't going to eat a thing or drink anything, not even water, until I got my anwer! Now here is where you would really be intruiged if you knew me personally. Before I became a christian I wanted to be a professional competition eater, and man could I put food away! I am alway's hungry! But suprisingly skinny...
rolleyes.gif
Anyway that was the deal, I was going to completely deny myself nourishment until my prayer was answered. I didn't want my parents to know what I was doing because honestly i felt kind of ridiculous. So I skipped dinner that night and told them i wasn't feeling well. Next morning I get up, and normally I don't eat breakfast I just wait to I get to school and we have break about 10:30 so I eat then, but this morning I wake up to a very interesting smell. My mom has made a HUMONGOUS breakfast of pancackes, waffles, bacon, sausage, eggs, toast, and hashbrowns! Again I denied it. I thought it was a little weird that this happens during my fast but I tossed it aside as a coincidence. So I get to school and I remember that our school has a bible study that meets in the mornings and it is just about to start. Normally I wouldn't go but I figure maybe God will answer my prayers their. So I go to the bible study and sit down, just observing when in walks the bible study leader who announces that he has decided to start bringing donuts to bible study from now on. He has 2 dozen fresh donuts just waiting to be eaten and only about 4 people their to do so. Again i denied myself any. I thought this was weird to...but just a coincidense. So after this i go to my first class where I am offered a pig in the blanket, which I deny, but this happens everyday so I don't mind it. So second and third period go off without a hitch, but near the end of 3rd period they announce over the intercom that we are having advisary today. Advisary is where a few students get together with a teacher and just talk about what is going on in life. So I head over to my advisary and just as i feared, our advisary teacher has brought cookies and my favorite soda, Dr Pepper!! So AGAIN I deny myself any. I try and convince myself that this too is just a coincidence but its getting harder. So immediately after advisary I go to forth period, history for me. Now normally the 4th period history class is packed right before class starts, its where people hang out and talk before 4th period actually starts. But this day I happen to be the only one in the room, which I think is a little weird but I don't think much of it. Then this guy walks in that I NEVER talk to or hang out with and he has a box of 2 dozen donuts with him. He tells me that nobody in his advisory was hungry and he wants me to have them. I tell him no thanks (which killed me), and now its getting ridiculous! I am no longer thinking of these as coincidences but I am not ready to accept anything yet. Now at this point I have been without food AND water for about 14 hours, so I am feeling it! So after this nothing more really happens at school, which I was very thankful for. Because at lunch I was trying to talk myself into buying a water, trying to convince myself that one water wouldn't ruin my fast. I really knew it would though so I didn't get any. Now its last period and I am ready to go home, we aren't suppost to have tennis practice so I can just go straight home...well about 10 minutes before last period ends they announce over the intercom that tennis is back on! Yay:( so I go to tennis and i plan on just tapping the ball around, nothing serious. But my coach has decided that we are going to start conditioning for the season! So I have conditioning for the next 2 hours which was awful and I really wanted some water! At this point it has been about 22 hours without food or water. So after tennis I get picked up by my mom and usually its just her when I get picked up. But this time its my whole family. They tell me we are going to get some ice cream, I didn't share their enthusiasm. So we get their and I get the ice cream but I just stare at it and tell them I will save it for later. So after about 30 minutes of staring at my untouched ice cream and listening to my family enjoy theirs we finally leave. When we get home I head straight to my room, I am exhausted. A few hours later my mom comes in and tells me that she has made my favorite dinner! I am not even going to bother telling you everything she made. Anyway, I told her no thanks I wasn't feeling well. And at this point I wasn't! So it has been about 30 hours now and I am REALLY feeling it! So I finally get to bed and i just want to watch a little tv and go to sleep well my remote works fine to turn the tv on but then it stops working. I can't change the channel or volume or anything. Normally I would just watch whatever is showing b/c I am too lazy to get up and change it:) But guess what channel the tv is stuck on...the FOOD NETWORK!! So I just say thats it! I am convinced that your real, there has been to many things happen today to be a coincidence so I sincerely came to God on my knees and accpeted Jesus as my savior and repented of my sins. And you know how I felt? Well I will tell you what I didn't feel, hungry or thirsty! I felt fine, I felt like I could go run a marathon. It was amazing and I know that this sounds a little weird, coming to God through food. But I had decided on a fast and that was ironic for me. But it worked. Since then I have changed my career choice, I still have the apetite, but I have decided to become a full time missionary and then to later on become a preacher. My whole life has turned around, all I want to do is serve God and better myself. I want this for you too! Anyway, my hands are cramping terribly right now so I will have to talk to you more later."
 

biblicalthought

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Feb 6, 2008
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Quote:Originally Posted by biblicalthought God has commanded all men to repent and believe. The gospel is not optional, and is only available through faith in Christ. Belief in God is an obviously necessary precondition for faith in Christ, thus you should believe in God.So because God said so? If you don't believe in God that arguement just doesn't stand up.
Your question was “why?” Is your question invalid because you do not believe? The response was an answer, not an argument. I don’t believe one can be argued into the kingdom of God. Jesus (our God), said one must be “born from above” to even see it (noetic). Besides, if one can be argued in, he can also be argued out – and Jesus said He’ll lose none that the Father gives Him, they can’t be snatched from His hand, by man, by argument, or otherwise. Children of God are born through the preaching of the Word, not by the psychological state of satisfaction produced by a compelling argument.
Quote:The question assumes that "those things" are bad. God may view them as good, and if so, then your question could be equally justified as "why would God allow such good things to happen to me?" The Bible says that the elect "know" that all things work together for our good, including what we would consider the "bad." Bad things that are universally considered bad. Not "oh I didn't want this to be my career". I'm not saying you're wrong here, I don't always know what's best for me like every other person.
If you are a child of God, the qualifier “if” and only if, then “all things” are working together for your good. All things include all things. Rape, incest, robbery, bankruptcy, car accidents, betrayal, etc. All of these forms of evil are produced by secondary causes, i.e. those that commit them and are accountable for them, but God means them for good. See the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his own family. He confronts them and says that although they meant it for evil, God meant it (the evil) for good. Here we see two sides of the coin: them meaning it for evil – God meaning it for good. No other worldview can make sense of all the bad that is in the world, mainly because without God, everything is meaningless, including good and evil.
Quote:What about them? Please specify your main concerns and their relation to the questions. Science is the thing I see evidence in, but thus far does not prove the existance of God. Maybe it could prove that there was a person named Jesus or some biblical events in part, but it doesn't prove the existence of God.
Shouldn’t you first prove the infallibility of science? If you begin with the a priori assumption that science is infallible and able to determine truth, then on what basis can you criticize the theist for believing a priori in the Christian God? I’ll discuss science and its role if you want but remember, science doesn’t know if light is wave or particle. It also requires an outside interpretation. There are serious problems here. I’m an “operationalist” when it comes to science. More on that later.
Quote:It is impossible for any man to live a just life. Jesus was the only life lived acceptable unto God. He was fully human and fully God, able to bridge the chasm between man and God. His perfect life earned the righteousness that is applied to those for whom He died. His death atoned for their sins as the sacrifice to appease God's wrath. Jesus received God's wrath as the substitute of those for whom He came to live and die for. Christians believe this, the heathen reject this. Christians receive eternal life and peace with God, the heathen are flicked into the eternal hell of conscious torment. I'm not saying anyone is perfect here, we all make mistakes but as I said above. It seems rather unfair to say two people who lived pretty much the same life, but one doesn't believe in God (or didn't in life) that they go to hell for that alone.
Demons believe in God. Believing in God is not enough. It is faith in Jesus Christ as the substitute for your sin that makes one a Christian. Judas believed in Jesus – he’s burning in hell. Christianity isn’t aiming for a general persuasion that God exists. The Bible says that all men already believe, including you – but that you suppress the truth in unrighteousness. A common saying in Christianity is “God doesn’t believe in atheists.” Believing the gospel is the distinction between heaven-bound souls and hell-bound bodies!
Quote:No. In order to call it a miracle, explanation, at least in part, is required. An unexplained phenomenon does not exist in the Christian world and life view. I have experienced miracles though, however, they are not unexplained - they're miraculous works of God! Let me clarify - unexplained by sciene or other logical paths. As in there is no question whatsoever that it is God.
For the Christian, seeing someone brought from spiritual death to spiritual life is indeed a miracle because of what must be overcome in order to achieve such an act. Like you, you’re a hater of God and a lover of sin. You may not acknowledge this, but if you did, it would be a miracle. That would be proof that the supernatural work of God’s Holy Spirit was active in your life. It is also proof that He’s decided to pass by you and save others if you were to continue on in your ways. Ever hear the song “Amazing Grace?” When a Christian sings that song, what is so amazing about grace is how amazing our sin is, and that in spite of the vile wickedness of our sin, God still forgives us by placing His wrath for us in the body of His own Son, our substitute and Savior, Jesus the Christ. If it sounds like foolishness, it’s because it is supposed to – to those that are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it is the [power of God] miracle (1 Cor. 1:18)!
Quote:Your question has to do with the exclusivity of Christianity. Christianity has a sacred text called the Bible. The Bible is the most reliable historical document of antiquity. In this Bible is found what to believe and how to live (doctrine and morals). The Bible reveals that God views homosexuality as an abominable sin, and views those that condone it equally abominable. It is also revealed that homosexuals and fornicators in general for that matter, are excluded from the kingdom of God. Christianity - yes, I direct most of my questioning here because I was a Christian.Why is homosexuality so abominable? Why exclude them from the kingdom of God?
You missed the answer, read it again. P.S. It is impossible for one to “have been” a Christian. It is illogical. It violates the law of non-contradiction. “A” cannot be “non A” at the same time. You either still are a Christian, just in a poor spiritual condition, or you never were one to begin with.
 

Pildit

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Feb 20, 2008
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(followerofchrist;37064)
Well my PM was to long haha! So I will just copy and past my PM here!"Ok, this would probably mean alot more to you if you knew how ironic my deal with God was, i will try and explain either during or at the end.Ok so after years of telling myself that I was a christian and I would go to heaven because i went to church (sometimes) and I prayed (again sometimes) and that that was all I needed. I even prayered the prayers they told us to in church, the prayers for people that wanted to get saved. But I still had doubts. I wasn't sure if I was actually saved, I didn't feel any different and nothing seemed to have changed. And whenever I felt these doubts I would pray these new christian prayers again. This summer I was tired of doubting my self, I decided to really find out once and for all if this was all for real. I knew that if it was i wasn't saved, otherwise I wouldn't have felt the need to accept Jesus into my heart (the prayer) multiple times! So I sat down alone in my room one night and I started talking to God. Basically I decided I was going to fast, I had heard it mentioned in the bible so I figured it would work. The prayer was that I was going to fast until God revealed himself to me or I ended up in the hospital from lack of nutrition. I was serious! I was tired of doubting and I was ready to do whatever it took to find out the truth! Normally in a fast you don't eat anything, maybe one small meal a day, and you only drink water. Well I was all buisness! I wasn't going to eat a thing or drink anything, not even water, until I got my anwer! Now here is where you would really be intruiged if you knew me personally. Before I became a christian I wanted to be a professional competition eater, and man could I put food away! I am alway's hungry! But suprisingly skinny...
rolleyes.gif
Anyway that was the deal, I was going to completely deny myself nourishment until my prayer was answered. I didn't want my parents to know what I was doing because honestly i felt kind of ridiculous. So I skipped dinner that night and told them i wasn't feeling well. Next morning I get up, and normally I don't eat breakfast I just wait to I get to school and we have break about 10:30 so I eat then, but this morning I wake up to a very interesting smell. My mom has made a HUMONGOUS breakfast of pancackes, waffles, bacon, sausage, eggs, toast, and hashbrowns! Again I denied it. I thought it was a little weird that this happens during my fast but I tossed it aside as a coincidence. So I get to school and I remember that our school has a bible study that meets in the mornings and it is just about to start. Normally I wouldn't go but I figure maybe God will answer my prayers their. So I go to the bible study and sit down, just observing when in walks the bible study leader who announces that he has decided to start bringing donuts to bible study from now on. He has 2 dozen fresh donuts just waiting to be eaten and only about 4 people their to do so. Again i denied myself any. I thought this was weird to...but just a coincidense. So after this i go to my first class where I am offered a pig in the blanket, which I deny, but this happens everyday so I don't mind it. So second and third period go off without a hitch, but near the end of 3rd period they announce over the intercom that we are having advisary today. Advisary is where a few students get together with a teacher and just talk about what is going on in life. So I head over to my advisary and just as i feared, our advisary teacher has brought cookies and my favorite soda, Dr Pepper!! So AGAIN I deny myself any. I try and convince myself that this too is just a coincidence but its getting harder. So immediately after advisary I go to forth period, history for me. Now normally the 4th period history class is packed right before class starts, its where people hang out and talk before 4th period actually starts. But this day I happen to be the only one in the room, which I think is a little weird but I don't think much of it. Then this guy walks in that I NEVER talk to or hang out with and he has a box of 2 dozen donuts with him. He tells me that nobody in his advisory was hungry and he wants me to have them. I tell him no thanks (which killed me), and now its getting ridiculous! I am no longer thinking of these as coincidences but I am not ready to accept anything yet. Now at this point I have been without food AND water for about 14 hours, so I am feeling it! So after this nothing more really happens at school, which I was very thankful for. Because at lunch I was trying to talk myself into buying a water, trying to convince myself that one water wouldn't ruin my fast. I really knew it would though so I didn't get any. Now its last period and I am ready to go home, we aren't suppost to have tennis practice so I can just go straight home...well about 10 minutes before last period ends they announce over the intercom that tennis is back on! Yay:( so I go to tennis and i plan on just tapping the ball around, nothing serious. But my coach has decided that we are going to start conditioning for the season! So I have conditioning for the next 2 hours which was awful and I really wanted some water! At this point it has been about 22 hours without food or water. So after tennis I get picked up by my mom and usually its just her when I get picked up. But this time its my whole family. They tell me we are going to get some ice cream, I didn't share their enthusiasm. So we get their and I get the ice cream but I just stare at it and tell them I will save it for later. So after about 30 minutes of staring at my untouched ice cream and listening to my family enjoy theirs we finally leave. When we get home I head straight to my room, I am exhausted. A few hours later my mom comes in and tells me that she has made my favorite dinner! I am not even going to bother telling you everything she made. Anyway, I told her no thanks I wasn't feeling well. And at this point I wasn't! So it has been about 30 hours now and I am REALLY feeling it! So I finally get to bed and i just want to watch a little tv and go to sleep well my remote works fine to turn the tv on but then it stops working. I can't change the channel or volume or anything. Normally I would just watch whatever is showing b/c I am too lazy to get up and change it:) But guess what channel the tv is stuck on...the FOOD NETWORK!! So I just say thats it! I am convinced that your real, there has been to many things happen today to be a coincidence so I sincerely came to God on my knees and accpeted Jesus as my savior and repented of my sins. And you know how I felt? Well I will tell you what I didn't feel, hungry or thirsty! I felt fine, I felt like I could go run a marathon. It was amazing and I know that this sounds a little weird, coming to God through food. But I had decided on a fast and that was ironic for me. But it worked. Since then I have changed my career choice, I still have the apetite, but I have decided to become a full time missionary and then to later on become a preacher. My whole life has turned around, all I want to do is serve God and better myself. I want this for you too! Anyway, my hands are cramping terribly right now so I will have to talk to you more later."
I'm glad you found God but to me that's not proof, just because there are several coincidences in a row doesn't make it proof.If we have free will, then God didn't make those people bring food into classes, make your favourite foods or go out for ice-cream, the people did.Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to push my views onto you. Just tell you my views.
 

Thunder1

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Dec 12, 2007
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Pildit:How can you be sure that your religion is the only true religion?Then why doesn't God give people proof? Surely people are blindly decieved because they blindly believe. They don't know the difference because they have no evidence of any difference.Thunder1:Dear Pildit, just asking what would be your other options and why ?
 

Pildit

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Feb 20, 2008
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(biblicalthought;37066)
Your question was “why?” Is your question invalid because you do not believe? The response was an answer, not an argument. I don’t believe one can be argued into the kingdom of God. Jesus (our God), said one must be “born from above” to even see it (noetic). Besides, if one can be argued in, he can also be argued out – and Jesus said He’ll lose none that the Father gives Him, they can’t be snatched from His hand, by man, by argument, or otherwise. Children of God are born through the preaching of the Word, not by the psychological state of satisfaction produced by a compelling argument.
What I'm saying is, I ask the question "why?" and people turn around and basically say "because God said so". If one is in doubt of God's existence, this answer simply isn't enough to justify one regaining their belief.
If you are a child of God, the qualifier “if” and only if, then “all things” are working together for your good. All things include all things. Rape, incest, robbery, bankruptcy, car accidents, betrayal, etc. All of these forms of evil are produced by secondary causes, i.e. those that commit them and are accountable for them, but God means them for good. See the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his own family. He confronts them and says that although they meant it for evil, God meant it (the evil) for good. Here we see two sides of the coin: them meaning it for evil – God meaning it for good. No other worldview can make sense of all the bad that is in the world, mainly because without God, everything is meaningless, including good and evil.
I think I've said this before but I can't remember who to. I'll say it again though, I'm in no doubt that events - even bad ones shape who we are and shape our future in some way and maybe sometimes that leads us to where we want to be or need to be. But for me, two things in this are in dispute:1.) If God has anything to do with this (this includes the questioning of his existence).2.) If God really is so great as to willling let such horrible things happen. (Which is a broad subject, I know but sticking to... the this really bad thing happened and God meaning it for good on a personal basis).
Shouldn’t you first prove the infallibility of science? If you begin with the a priori assumption that science is infallible and able to determine truth, then on what basis can you criticize the theist for believing a priori in the Christian God? I’ll discuss science and its role if you want but remember, science doesn’t know if light is wave or particle. It also requires an outside interpretation. There are serious problems here. I’m an “operationalist” when it comes to science. More on that later.
I wasn't suggesting that science didn't have any flaws at all, that in science all knowledge was unlocked. Not at all. But in science I find evidence and proof which I don't find in Religion. If there is some, please point it out because I really want to see it.
Demons believe in God. Believing in God is not enough. It is faith in Jesus Christ as the substitute for your sin that makes one a Christian. Judas believed in Jesus – he’s burning in hell. Christianity isn’t aiming for a general persuasion that God exists. The Bible says that all men already believe, including you – but that you suppress the truth in unrighteousness. A common saying in Christianity is “God doesn’t believe in atheists.” Believing the gospel is the distinction between heaven-bound souls and hell-bound bodies!
First off, perhaps this came out wrong. The other person in this not believing in God, Jesus, Jesus is their savoir or Jesus is the son of God.God doesn't believe in athiests? Explain that one because honestly if God doesn't believe in me then dude needs to practice what he preaches and have faith.
For the Christian, seeing someone brought from spiritual death to spiritual life is indeed a miracle because of what must be overcome in order to achieve such an act. Like you, you’re a hater of God and a lover of sin. You may not acknowledge this, but if you did, it would be a miracle. That would be proof that the supernatural work of God’s Holy Spirit was active in your life. It is also proof that He’s decided to pass by you and save others if you were to continue on in your ways. Ever hear the song “Amazing Grace?” When a Christian sings that song, what is so amazing about grace is how amazing our sin is, and that in spite of the vile wickedness of our sin, God still forgives us by placing His wrath for us in the body of His own Son, our substitute and Savior, Jesus the Christ. If it sounds like foolishness, it’s because it is supposed to – to those that are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it is the [power of God] miracle (1 Cor. 1:18)!
Woah, hold up. I'm NOT a hater of God. Or a lover of sin for that matter. Admittedly right now since I have no proof, I don't count myself amongst the believers. It would be wrong and hypocritial for me do so. Also admittedly I'm no angel, I'm not perfect. I have sinned. I've made mistakes but that by no means makes me a lover of sin.So what your saying is: if I believe again it's proof he exists (granted, I would hope so as the proof would be the reason i believed again) but also if I don't this proves he exists?!I think I already got the point I'm supposed to believe before any of it makes sense, but how can I believe when it doesn't make sense?!
You missed the answer, read it again.
Because God said so? Why does he think its a sin?
P.S. It is impossible for one to “have been” a Christian. It is illogical. It violates the law of non-contradiction. “A” cannot be “non A” at the same time. You either still are a Christian, just in a poor spiritual condition, or you never were one to begin with.
It's not illogical at all. One can perfectly well have believed and then found themselves not believing for whatever reason."A" is not "non A" AT THE SAME TIME. I NEVER said I was a Christian right now. It would be hypocritical for me to do so, however I used to believe. However blindly that was.
 

Pildit

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Feb 20, 2008
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(Thunder1;37075)
Pildit:How can you be sure that your religion is the only true religion?Then why doesn't God give people proof? Surely people are blindly decieved because they blindly believe. They don't know the difference because they have no evidence of any difference.Thunder1:Dear Pildit, just asking what would be your other options and why ?
Generally any religion that is not bad or evil, by this I mean it doesn't preach or practice murder or hate or anything like that.However I'm not actually looking at my personal options at this point to be honest, I want to know about Christianity because it's what I used to believe. The "why not any other religion?" is just part of my search for the truth/evidence/proof at this stage.
 

Thunder1

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Dear Pildit,proof means different things for different people. Believing God is by faith, sorry I know that is not enough for you. I have never seen God, but I've seen the works of God, the Holy Spirit working on people's lives, mine also. It's a bit like wind, you don't see it,but you see the effects of it. Even if I did not have Bible I know that there must be a creator, who did that 'big bang'. God is miracle working God, He is a comforter, which you might not ever need. He is living God, God in action ,not just a dead rock,which you can see,but you won't get any help from. I was blind once, but now I can see. I never even thought about is there or isn't there God, I just lived. Nobody ever asked me if I believe in God or not. I just lived this life not thinking anything more about it,I was that blind. You are at least questioning.
 

biblicalthought

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Feb 6, 2008
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God doesn't believe in athiests? Explain that one because honestly if God doesn't believe in me then dude needs to practice what he preaches and have faith.
Yeah, “Only fools say, there is no God.” Psalms chapter 14, verse one. This is because everyone knows that God exists, they just suppress the knowledge of him in their thinking, and exchange the truth of God for a lie. God has made it plain to everyone, everywhere, that He exists, namely His invisible attributes – it’s plain to all through creation. So, you, or anyone else that plays the atheist game, are without excuse. The absence of “suitable-to-you” proof will not prevent the flicking finger of God from casting you into hell for eternity – believe it or not, makes no difference that it is true.
Woah, hold up. I'm NOT a hater of God. Or a lover of sin for that matter. Admittedly right now since I have no proof, I don't count myself amongst the believers. It would be wrong and hypocritial for me do so. Also admittedly I'm no angel, I'm not perfect. I have sinned. I've made mistakes but that by no means makes me a lover of sin.So what your saying is: if I believe again it's proof he exists (granted, I would hope so as the proof would be the reason i believed again) but also if I don't this proves he exists?!I think I already got the point I'm supposed to believe before any of it makes sense, but how can I believe when it doesn't make sense?!
That’s the miracle. See, you believe that the God revealed in Scripture as the sovereign creator and sustainer of all things, exists. That’s not the issue. The issue is with your willing refusal to accept his commands to obey and submit to His Law. I don’t hold that against you. I don’t even expect for you to do otherwise. You “cannot.” You are not able to do so. Here’s what the Bible has to say about you:“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” – Romans 8:5-8 esvJust read your quote, the existence of God is all over the place. You’re not a hater of whom? You’re not a lover of sin, but without a God who judges unrighteousness, without a God who gives a Law, what is sin? You’re no angel? What is an angel? In a materialist universe, what is an angel? You admit that you’ve sinned. But if there is no God, then all you’ve done is all you’ve done. Only when compared to what God has established as right can there even be a wrong.You need to stop playing games and bow in submission to the sovereign judge of all mankind. It’s now or never. The fact that you have admitted that you’re a sinner, in turn, only proves that you need a savior. All that you have ever done that is less than perfect, condemns you to an eternal state of conscious torment in the punishing hell. There is nothing you can do to undo what you have done, and there is nothing you can pay to appease the penalty. God has made provision by His loving grace in sending His Son Jesus to live the perfect life, earning a righteousness that God accepts, and dying in the place of those for whom He has been sent to redeem. The miracle that you long for is the regenerating power of God’s Holy Spirit wherein which He removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. You will have experienced this miracle when you all of a sudden recognize your guilty estate, and see Jesus Christ as the receiver of the wrath that your own sins earned. He bore the curse in His own body, so that those that the Father gives Him can receive full redemption and reconciliation with God.Right now you’re His enemy. What needs to happen is a change in His attitude towards you, not a change in your attitude towards Him. It’s a narrow path, and Jesus said only a few will find it – stop messing around, repent and believe. It’s a command!
 

Pildit

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Dear Pildit,proof means different things for different people. Believing God is by faith, sorry I know that is not enough for you. I have never seen God, but I've seen the works of God, the Holy Spirit working on people's lives, mine also. It's a bit like wind, you don't see it,but you see the effects of it. Even if I did not have Bible I know that there must be a creator, who did that 'big bang'. God is miracle working God, He is a comforter, which you might not ever need. He is living God, God in action ,not just a dead rock,which you can see,but you won't get any help from. I was blind once, but now I can see. I never even thought about is there or isn't there God, I just lived. Nobody ever asked me if I believe in God or not. I just lived this life not thinking anything more about it,I was that blind. You are at least questioning.
Proof doesn't have to be scientific proof (although I welcome that), it can be proof in something that cannot be explained by anything other than God.You're statement of "Even if I did not have Bible I know that there must be a creator, who did that 'big bang'." intrigues me a lot. If you didn't have the bible, how would you come to the conclusion that there was a creator?I wasn't exactly just living, I believed and as I got older I got more into Christianity.I know my questioning evidently to some people is not a good thing in any way whatsoever, but if you don't ever question something, even your religion... how do you know if it's real, true or if that's what you really believe?
 

Pildit

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Yeah, “Only fools say, there is no God.” Psalms chapter 14, verse one. This is because everyone knows that God exists, they just suppress the knowledge of him in their thinking, and exchange the truth of God for a lie. God has made it plain to everyone, everywhere, that He exists, namely His invisible attributes – it’s plain to all through creation. So, you, or anyone else that plays the atheist game, are without excuse. The absence of “suitable-to-you” proof will not prevent the flicking finger of God from casting you into hell for eternity – believe it or not, makes no difference that it is true.That’s the miracle. See, you believe that the God revealed in Scripture as the sovereign creator and sustainer of all things, exists. That’s not the issue. The issue is with your willing refusal to accept his commands to obey and submit to His Law. I don’t hold that against you. I don’t even expect for you to do otherwise. You “cannot.” You are not able to do so. Here’s what the Bible has to say about you:“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” – Romans 8:5-8 esvJust read your quote, the existence of God is all over the place. You’re not a hater of whom? You’re not a lover of sin, but without a God who judges unrighteousness, without a God who gives a Law, what is sin? You’re no angel? What is an angel? In a materialist universe, what is an angel? You admit that you’ve sinned. But if there is no God, then all you’ve done is all you’ve done. Only when compared to what God has established as right can there even be a wrong.You need to stop playing games and bow in submission to the sovereign judge of all mankind. It’s now or never. The fact that you have admitted that you’re a sinner, in turn, only proves that you need a savior. All that you have ever done that is less than perfect, condemns you to an eternal state of conscious torment in the punishing hell. There is nothing you can do to undo what you have done, and there is nothing you can pay to appease the penalty. God has made provision by His loving grace in sending His Son Jesus to live the perfect life, earning a righteousness that God accepts, and dying in the place of those for whom He has been sent to redeem. The miracle that you long for is the regenerating power of God’s Holy Spirit wherein which He removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. You will have experienced this miracle when you all of a sudden recognize your guilty estate, and see Jesus Christ as the receiver of the wrath that your own sins earned. He bore the curse in His own body, so that those that the Father gives Him can receive full redemption and reconciliation with God.Right now you’re His enemy. What needs to happen is a change in His attitude towards you, not a change in your attitude towards Him. It’s a narrow path, and Jesus said only a few will find it – stop messing around, repent and believe. It’s a command!
Correction #1 - Agnostic I said, remember that word.Correction #2 - Angel as is the pue qualities thereof, not of the actual spiritual being.Correction #3 - I have morals, therefore I make mistakes.Correction #4 - I'm not playing games.Correction #5 - I'm not his enemy, I'm looking to discover/rediscover him.Correction #6 - Sorry commanding people to do something doesn't work, it has to be my choice.
 

biblicalthought

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Like I said, I don't hold it against you. You are "not able" to believe. All "agnostic" means is "ignorant," but as I demonstrated from Scripture, you are without excuse. God has made it plain to you, you supress the truth in unrighteousness.#2. The word angel is the English transliteration of the Greek angelos. The Greek angelos is the Septuagint translation of the hebrew "sons of God" as in the book of Job and Genesis. Regarding your use of a word that has its root somewhere that doesn't exist is a challenging task for you to explain. Would you like to attempt to do so? Also explain what you mean by "actual" when used as the prefic to "spiritual being."#3) Where do morals come from? You are borrowing from our worldview to establish your own, which is mutually exclusive to one another. Where do you get morals from?#4) Then what are you playing?#5) You're His enemy and he hates you. Watch this short youtube video. You are either an enemy or a loved child. All of His loved children believe. You publicly profess that you do not believe. Therefore you are His enemy.#6) Your choice plays no part in the absolute sovereignty of God. He is the one who has commanded faith and repentance. Shall you say to Him as you are judged, "Sorry God, commanding people to do something doesn't work, it has to be my choice?" Your choice is to remain in bondage to your sin, you have no other choice but to do so.Reminder: God is the only Free Will in existence!
 

Thunder1

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Proof doesn't have to be scientific proof (although I welcome that), it can be proof in something that cannot be explained by anything other than God.You're statement of "Even if I did not have Bible I know that there must be a creator, who did that 'big bang'." intrigues me a lot. If you didn't have the bible, how would you come to the conclusion that there was a creator?I wasn't exactly just living, I believed and as I got older I got more into Christianity.I know my questioning evidently to some people is not a good thing in any way whatsoever, but if you don't ever question something, even your religion... how do you know if it's real, true or if that's what you really believe?
I meant that time when I did not know God, I did not question. I must have been so tangled with this life, blind as they say. Later I did question and learnt about different religions, but when God chose me in His mercy, I did not doubt that there was a Creator. Even without Bible, behind all that 'big bang' for me it's common sense that somebody created everything.
 

whirlwind

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I've prayed for his will too.
I will suggest one other thing Pildit. Pray for others. Pray that you receive enough knowledge from Him to be able to help others on their path....the path that leads to Him.
Define "floating piece of pond scum".If by that you mean single cell organisms, then you're right. We didn't, not driectly, there were many stages of evolution between single cell organisms and human beings as we know them today.
I don't agree. We are made in His image. When He formed us it is as we are today....some taller, some shorter but as a human being, an upright human being. There were NO stages between our beginning and where we are today.
So this is a sort of second chance system?
Well look around you Pildit. How many chances does a Muslim child have to find Christ? How many chances does a child raised by a dispicable parent have to know Christ? What about those in the far corners of the world? They will all be judged on how they lived this life for even without a formal knowledge of Christ there is an innate sense of good and evil in each of us. We know if we have crossed boundaries even if we didn't see the rules written out for us. Our Father is a God of love and wants ALL of His children to find Him but.....He does have rules, simple rules but none the less....Rules!I will say that I believe it will be much more difficult for a soul that knows, has been taught, those rules and willingly decides to do what he wants anyway. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. It isn't considered a sin if it was done in ignorance of it being a sin. However, there are things that by nature we know are wrong. He ingrained that into us and that didn't come about with evolution.He protects many of us that are not strong enough to make it through by blinding some to the truth of His Word. He knows who they are and has provided the millennium so they can be taught without Satan's influence. As I said....He doesn't throw anyone into hell. All that go there will choose it on their own......no victims!Once one of us have had our eyes and ears opened and we know the truth of His Word we are still protected but more is expected of us and firmer penalties are placed:Hebrews 10:26. For if we sin wilfuly after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. That knowledge isn't simply dumped into our laps but is slowly given as He sees us study and mature. That is done for our safety.
Okay, I've read what you've written and I'm also just going to read that from both my bibles as well for myself (KJV and NIV)... okay uh huh... slightly different accounts but let me get this straight here.All those pure Christians, believers, etc go straight to Heaven. The non-believers, get to know that Christ and God do exist and then have to live out another 1000 years, then they will only be judged on their good deeds and morals, etc. Correct?
None of us are "pure" as we are all sinners. Everyone is in a spiritual body. That happens when He comes at His second Advent....all are changed. He is coming here and we will also be here. All of us will live out the millennium (with Satan and his evil teachings, spirits, etc. locked away during that time). Those that didn't believe in Christ will be taught His truth and how to live properly. They are expected to do works as that is what they will be judged on....you are correct.
What about Jews... was Jesus not a Jew? If so why aren't you a Jew?I'm in no doubt there's a deeper meaning some verses of the Bible but usually there is in all texts and the meaning differs from person to person for various reasons.
Yes, Christ was of the tribes of Judah and Levi. There were ten other tribes as well. Both of us could well be from those tribes (they are not Jews but are the house of Israel....only Judah are Jews). However, even if physically we are not of those tribes we, by belief in Him, are adopted into that family of God's chosen.
His son isn't here now. His word is just his word. It's not proof. I could give you my word on many things but it isn't proof. There's no proof that he gave us our lives or this world.As I said, I've asked him.
His Son is here. When we give ourself to Him His Spirit enters us...He lives in us.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
He was in my life or so I thought at the time anyway. Ask. I've asked. Nothing. I ask for proof right now, I ask here, I ask you but no-one seems to prove me with any proof.
There are many "proofs" in His Word...I'll give you one here, perhaps the greatest one.Matthew 27:46 And about the nineth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"Jesus NEVER called His Father "God." We also know God would not "forsake" Him as that was the purpose He came to earth in a flesh body for....to take our sins upon Himself. His crucifixion was foretold long before the event. When He spoke those words on the cross He was teaching us, proving to us who He is and why He came. Those words were taken from the following Psalms and written 1000 years before the event by David.Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why are Thou so far from helping me and from the words of my roaring?13.They gaped upon me with their mouths, As a ravening and a roaring lion.14.I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15.My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And Thou hast brought me into the dust of death.16.For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet.18.They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.31.They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, That He hath done this. (meaning - It is finished [John 19:30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished:" and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.)Pildit...read that entire Psalm and it is proof. Also read Isaiah 53...it is proof.
[/I][/B]Hardships change everyone. I understand that. They mould you either because you become afraid of something, you learn or become stronger from them. I know this because I've been through a lot of hardship but where did I find the most helpful... or who rather... an athiest.I'm in no way saying that religion hasn't gotten me through bad times before now, however it's all about hope and feeling there is hope... but that can be gotten from many things and there is no proof for religion (or none that I've thus far found should I say).Everyone matures, everyone changes. It doesn't necessaily take religion to do it.I know it's my choice. I choose to search for God, answers and proof right now. Thank you for your prayers.
I can tell that you search. He is the one that calls you to search. He called me and made my path cross that of a teacher that opened God's Word to me. :study: His teaching answered many questions I have had all my life and with that knowledge came belief....strong belief. That truth brought me home and I pray that is the path you are on.If there are any questions you have that will help you in this search please ask them. If I am unable to answer you there are others on this forum that can share truth with you - not platitudes and feel-good statements but truth. The important part is that you are searching and are open to Him. You must remain pliable, you are after all a piece of clay and He can mold that clay if you are willing.........Whirlwind
 

Pildit

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#2. The word angel is the English transliteration of the Greek angelos. The Greek angelos is the Septuagint translation of the hebrew "sons of God" as in the book of Job and Genesis. Regarding your use of a word that has its root somewhere that doesn't exist is a challenging task for you to explain. Would you like to attempt to do so? Also explain what you mean by "actual" when used as the prefic to "spiritual being."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Angel"6. a person whose actions and thoughts are consistently virtuous."
#3) Where do morals come from? You are borrowing from our worldview to establish your own, which is mutually exclusive to one another. Where do you get morals from?
My morals come from various places including the Bible obviously, like I said I used to believe without question so it makes sense that some do come from there. Others from experiences, from others.
#4) Then what are you playing?
I'm not playing. This is serious. I'm trying to find God.
#5) You're His enemy and he hates you. Watch this short youtube video. You are either an enemy or a loved child. All of His loved children believe. You publicly profess that you do not believe. Therefore you are His enemy.
Watched it. Questioning is not the same as saying flat out "there is no God, I don't believe and never will".I lost my way. I don't know the way back (if indeed I was on the right track before), therefore I'm looking for it.
#6) Your choice plays no part in the absolute sovereignty of God. He is the one who has commanded faith and repentance. Shall you say to Him as you are judged, "Sorry God, commanding people to do something doesn't work, it has to be my choice?" Your choice is to remain in bondage to your sin, you have no other choice but to do so.
If it's not my choice, if it's not anyones choice the religion would never gain any new people. New people come to religion all the time.Lastly: This will most likely be my last reply to you. I come here to look for God or a way to find him, a way to believe. Not to be personally attacked and told there's no point, you don't believe anyway so just go away... God hates you anyway... so don't bother. And if you're about to say "well whatever, I'm just relaying God's message" fine, go ahead but as you can see I can already predict that.TO EVERYONE ELSE: Please if God hates me for questioning and looking for him and there's no point in me looking because I'm already doomed and there's nothing I can do. Just tell me. Please.However if you added a reply already. I'm getting to you and will reply accordingly - I've no dismissed any posts before this. I will reply to you.
 

Pildit

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I meant that time when I did not know God, I did not question. I must have been so tangled with this life, blind as they say. Later I did question and learnt about different religions, but when God chose me in His mercy, I did not doubt that there was a Creator. Even without Bible, behind all that 'big bang' for me it's common sense that somebody created everything.
I know this question is done like a million times over but why/how is it common sense that somebody created everything.I apologise if this is repeatitive as soooo many people ask this I know, but if by chance your the person who gets this to "make sense" to me, then I won't pass up the opportunity of asking.
 

Pildit

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I will suggest one other thing Pildit. Pray for others. Pray that you receive enough knowledge from Him to be able to help others on their path....the path that leads to Him.
I stopped praying for others. Not that I don't care, but currently I don't think pray works and I feel like I'm lying to them, saying "I'll pray for you"... because I don't feel like I'm helping at all.Of course if people find him then that's great.
I don't agree. We are made in His image. When He formed us it is as we are today....some taller, some shorter but as a human being, an upright human being. There were NO stages between our beginning and where we are today.
I think we'll agree to disagree on this one for now.
Well look around you Pildit. How many chances does a Muslim child have to find Christ? How many chances does a child raised by a dispicable parent have to know Christ? What about those in the far corners of the world? They will all be judged on how they lived this life for even without a formal knowledge of Christ there is an innate sense of good and evil in each of us. We know if we have crossed boundaries even if we didn't see the rules written out for us. Our Father is a God of love and wants ALL of His children to find Him but.....He does have rules, simple rules but none the less....Rules!
Yes of course, I understand about the rules. Albeit maybe not ALL of them completely but still.
I will say that I believe it will be much more difficult for a soul that knows, has been taught, those rules and willingly decides to do what he wants anyway. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. It isn't considered a sin if it was done in ignorance of it being a sin. However, there are things that by nature we know are wrong. He ingrained that into us and that didn't come about with evolution.He protects many of us that are not strong enough to make it through by blinding some to the truth of His Word. He knows who they are and has provided the millennium so they can be taught without Satan's influence. As I said....He doesn't throw anyone into hell. All that go there will choose it on their own......no victims!Once one of us have had our eyes and ears opened and we know the truth of His Word we are still protected but more is expected of us and firmer penalties are placed:Hebrews 10:26. For if we sin wilfuly after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. That knowledge isn't simply dumped into our laps but is slowly given as He sees us study and mature. That is done for our safety.
Yes that's perfectly understandable, God or no God, people should learn from their mistakes and/or knowledge there of.Thank you for explaining this as you might see above, it gets rather confusing. (If confusing is the right word to use).
None of us are "pure" as we are all sinners. Everyone is in a spiritual body. That happens when He comes at His second Advent....all are changed. He is coming here and we will also be here. All of us will live out the millennium (with Satan and his evil teachings, spirits, etc. locked away during that time). Those that didn't believe in Christ will be taught His truth and how to live properly. They are expected to do works as that is what they will be judged on....you are correct.
Sorry I apologise here. I meant "pure christians" in the sense that they are the believers, the "best" if you like and thank you again, you made that more clear for me.
Yes, Christ was of the tribes of Judah and Levi. There were ten other tribes as well. Both of us could well be from those tribes (they are not Jews but are the house of Israel....only Judah are Jews). However, even if physically we are not of those tribes we, by belief in Him, are adopted into that family of God's chosen.
So it does so matter which "Tribe" or closely related religion you come from, as long as you believe?
His Son is here. When we give ourself to Him His Spirit enters us...He lives in us.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
What I meant was, he's not here. I can't see these events happening or him. I have no physical proof (not that this is the only proof, understand that). But if a person was to be here, to be evidently here. Then you in some way need some proof. Otherwise they are just a character or a personification.Does that make sense to you?
There are many "proofs" in His Word...I'll give you one here, perhaps the greatest one.Matthew 27:46 And about the nineth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"Jesus NEVER called His Father "God." We also know God would not "forsake" Him as that was the purpose He came to earth in a flesh body for....to take our sins upon Himself. His crucifixion was foretold long before the event. When He spoke those words on the cross He was teaching us, proving to us who He is and why He came. Those words were taken from the following Psalms and written 1000 years before the event by David.Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why are Thou so far from helping me and from the words of my roaring?13.They gaped upon me with their mouths, As a ravening and a roaring lion.14.I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15.My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And Thou hast brought me into the dust of death.16.For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet.18.They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.31.They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, That He hath done this. (meaning - It is finished [John 19:30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished:" and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.)Pildit...read that entire Psalm and it is proof. Also read Isaiah 53...it is proof.
Psalms is something I read often before, but I admit I've not read it all. I've not read Isaiah 53 or atleast I don't remember anything from it. I shall venture into that perhaps soon.However, please don't take this the wrong way but it's difficult for me to comprehend that just because something is written earlier in a book and fulfilled later in a book, that it is proof that God exists. Afterall... many books do the same thing.So if you've any advancement on that. I'd be happy to listen.
I can tell that you search. He is the one that calls you to search. He called me and made my path cross that of a teacher that opened God's Word to me. :study: His teaching answered many questions I have had all my life and with that knowledge came belief....strong belief. That truth brought me home and I pray that is the path you are on.
Thank you.
If there are any questions you have that will help you in this search please ask them. If I am unable to answer you there are others on this forum that can share truth with you - not platitudes and feel-good statements but truth. The important part is that you are searching and are open to Him. You must remain pliable, you are after all a piece of clay and He can mold that clay if you are willing.
Thank you, if I have any other questions (besides those already been asked or addressed) I'll ask.I don't really ever see myself ever shutting the door to this, of course it's possible that there's a God, I don't know everything. We don't know everything.
 

biblicalthought

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It's true, he hates all unrighteousness. Which is why I mentioned that God's attitude towards you must change. You're approaching this as if it is your attitude toward God that must change. While you are sitting along, stroking your chin, appraising the "evidence," God is existing, and sovereignly bringing about his elect to faith and glory.
If it's not my choice, if it's not anyones choice the religion would never gain any new people. New people come to religion all the time.
Not the Christian religion. The Bible explicitly states that it is not by the will of man.
Please if God hates me for questioning and looking for him and there's no point in me looking because I'm already doomed and there's nothing I can do. Just tell me.
He hates you because of your sin. The only way he loves anyone, is if they are cloaked in the righteousness that is from Christ. You are correct in feeling totally helpless and worthless. There is nothing you can do to gain acceptance from God. In the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul is saying that God has revealed in the gospel a way that we can obtain a righteousness that can cover our sins so that God does not need to view or treat us in terms of our sins but in terms of that righteousness. The need for salvation is universal.The gospel begins with the wrath of God. In Romans, Paul doesn't even mention God's love until chapter five. He discusses God's wrath - that He's angry with the sinner every day. Before a patient desires the medicine, he must first be aware of his disease. While some ministries say, Smile - God Loves You, we say, Frown - God May Hate You! Once you have embraced your helpless estate, you are qualified to embrace the provision that God has made to save: Jesus Christ the Lord.But trust me, it's for your own good. Unless you come like this, you've come to something other. On that Day, he may say to you: Depart from me you, I never knew you. This is a quotation of Jesus from the Bible.