Co- Redemptrix

michaelvpardo said:

That's because you think of the church as an organization rather than as a body. I suggest that you read the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and consider the words of the Spirit written to the churches (and you'll notice Rome is never mentioned) and to all that have an ear to hear.

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Marymog said:

If all of us are The Church then which church do you go to when you want to settle a dispute with your brother? Which church is the pillar and foundation of truth? Questions you just can’t seem to answer.

If you knew scripture and how the Apostles built an organized Church, just like God wanted them to, you would know the answer. But maybe, just maybe, the Apostles were wrong and you are right.

IHS...Mary

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Marymog said:

If all of us are The Church then which church do you go to when you want to settle a dispute with your brother? Which church is the pillar and foundation of truth? Questions you just can’t seem to answer.

If you knew scripture and how the Apostles built an organized Church, just like God wanted them to, you would know the answer. But maybe, just maybe, the Apostles were wrong and you are right.

IHS...Mary

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APAK said:

Marymog:

I would rather not use the term ‘church’ and especially organized church’ when speaking of scripture and the body of Christ…and why might you ask?..

A little context into its history..in what I remember…

When Jesus replied to Peter concerning his title and name, Jesus replied that he would build his Greek word: ekklesia or assembly or congregation of individual believers by what God gave him, possessing his spirit. God’s spirit would speak or work within each one individually as Peter was the example here.

Now a version of the derivation of Church…I apologized if my spelling of some words maybe ‘off’..the gist of my meaning is still there…

The indo European word ‘keu ‘(I believe I spelt it correctly) means cave or stronghold. Next the modern Greek language used this term to describe a building of strength/power as the Lords or Leader’s house (it has the same meaning today)…Kyriake/Kynakon…

Then it was used by the Germanic tribes as kirika..then by the Norse folks as kirika..then into old English as circie then middle English chirch/kirke/kirk then finally into modern English, Church….it is a physical building where you worship a leader today, since the 16th century, God. Bibles before 1550 I believe never had the term ‘church’ in them…

So, I would stick with the words congregation, assembly or body of Jesus Christ as the closest to scripture when speaking of Jesus’ people. KJ deliberately inserted the word ‘Church’ over ‘congregation’….what a shame.

And then calling this Ekklesia an ‘organized Church’ really moves the original meaning into the dust.

Of course we make amends by seeking out brethren (at least two) in the Ekklesia and forgive or resolve our differences in the love of God...short answer

Bless you,

APAK

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michaelvpardo said:

There's only 1 church and it isn't Rome, never was. It's a body, a living organism not some dead and perverse thing sanctioning molesters and giving false testimony to the world. Maybe you should try reading scripture to learn what was actually taught by the Apostles. Not one of them ever mentioned a "Holy mother."

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Marymog said:

Hi Apak,

You are referring to the Teutonic languages. The Teutonic languages render the Greek ekklesia or ecclesia to mean society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ. A majority of scholars now agree that it is derived from the Greek kuriakon, cyriacon, or the Lord's house. In the writings of the New Testament the word ecclesia denotes the Church of Christ. Occasionally ecclesia is employed in its general significance of "assembly" in Acts 32 and 1 Corinthians 19). By the 3rd century this term was being used to signify a Christian place of worship (a physical building).

My point is I think we are generally in agreement that it means assembly or congregation, however, the reason it morphed into “a Christian place of worship” is because the Apostles also set up a hierarchy in the church (assembly, congregation). That hierarchy (bishops, elders, presbyters) had a “place” where they had their office (a physical building) and at the place (a physical building) is where mass was celebrated. That physical building is were all the Christians gathered to read scripture, preach, pray and engage in fellowship.

With that in mind let’s revisit the saying from Matthew we are discussing: 15 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to The Church; and if they refuse to listen even to The Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Verse 16 fits the “assembly/congregation” (take one or two others along) part of our definition. So I ask you: Who or what is The Church spoken of in verse 17? MORE people of the congregation/assembly? How many more? 5, 10, 15, 100? Or does it mean the leaders (elders, bishops, prebysers) of the assembly? Where do you find that assembly? In a building? Or do you just walk down the street yelling, “Hey, anyone that is a Christian come outside your house and into the streets to settle this difference between my brother and I”?

When you (Apak) and I disagree, which congregation/assembly do we go to? I choose the assembled Catholics. Which assembly do you choose?

IHS...Mary

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Marymog said:

Why is your interpretation of scripture true or accurate but everyone else’s wrong?

Curious Mary

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Marymog said:

And still no answer

IHS...Mary

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Marymog said:

If you knew scripture and how the Apostles built an organized Church, just like God wanted them to, you would know the answer.

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Marymog said:

I never mentioned the Catholic Church or referenced the RCC or any of it’s teachings.

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Marymog said:

Hi Apak,

You are referring to the Teutonic languages. The Teutonic languages render the Greek ekklesia or ecclesia to mean society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ. A majority of scholars now agree that it is derived from the Greek kuriakon, cyriacon, or the Lord's house. In the writings of the New Testament the word ecclesia denotes the Church of Christ. Occasionally ecclesia is employed in its general significance of "assembly" in Acts 32 and 1 Corinthians 19). By the 3rd century this term was being used to signify a Christian place of worship (a physical building).

My point is I think we are generally in agreement that it means assembly or congregation, however, the reason it morphed into “a Christian place of worship” is because the Apostles also set up a hierarchy in the church (assembly, congregation). That hierarchy (bishops, elders, presbyters) had a “place” where they had their office (a physical building) and at the place (a physical building) is where mass was celebrated. That physical building is were all the Christians gathered to read scripture, preach, pray and engage in fellowship.

With that in mind let’s revisit the saying from Matthew we are discussing: 15 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to The Church; and if they refuse to listen even to The Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Verse 16 fits the “assembly/congregation” (take one or two others along) part of our definition. So I ask you: Who or what is The Church spoken of in verse 17? MORE people of the congregation/assembly? How many more? 5, 10, 15, 100? Or does it mean the leaders (elders, bishops, prebysers) of the assembly? Where do you find that assembly? In a building? Or do you just walk down the street yelling, “Hey, anyone that is a Christian come outside your house and into the streets to settle this difference between my brother and I”?

When you (Apak) and I disagree, which congregation/assembly do we go to? I choose the assembled Catholics. Which assembly do you choose?

IHS...Mary

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APAK said:

Mary, you are a Catholic I see. I suspect you are trying to peddle Catholic false propaganda on me with its own fabricated sources and false claims? I think you are …I ‘m sorry I don’t buy into false doctrine and sources you support that you provide here as the truth.

You said I was somehow referring to those that spoke in a Teutonic language and that they used the Greek word Ekklesia for the society of Jesus. You assume too much Mary. You have added in a distraction.

The word “CHURCH” was used by the Poles and other Slavic peoples for the society of Jesus AND NOT FOR the Greek word Ekklesia. This has NOTHING to do with Ekklesia. They used the non-scriptural substitute word that you are trying to peddle to me as the real meaning in scripture. Your false source came right out of Catholic speak from their Encyclopedias.

You said that a majority of scholars now agree that (Ekklesia) it is derived from the Greek kuriakon, cyriacon, or the Lord's house. Again, your source is a false Catholic one. It is simply not true. Only Catholic biased scholars think this. Why didn’t you add in that the Catholics even say Ekklesia also means a ‘Christian’ place of worship? I guess you did further down in your reply. We have come a long way for the assembly of called-out ones of God, to a place of worship, aye?

You said that “In the writings of the New Testament the word ecclesia denotes the Church of Christ.” This is a false statement. In fact, the Catholics say even say that Ekklesia means the Catholic Church. They take many liberties with scripture don’t they.

You said “Occasionally ecclesia is employed in its general significance of "assembly" in Acts 32 and 1 Corinthians 19). By the 3rd century this term was being used to signify a Christian place of worship (a physical building).”

It was only true because the pre-Catholic pagans turned Ekklesia into another false term; opposing scripture for their own needs and desires. Again, drawn from false Catholic history and sources…not scriptural in any way. Just because they said it now means this or that, does not make it true? I’m a person that relies on scripture rather that a people that reform and misuse scripture for their own political and religious needs as these people did and many do today.

Unfortunately, thus far I do not agree to anything you have said in your reply….I will not comment on your the subject of repairing wrongs amongst brethren, at least at this time, since I'm amazed you think I'm this gullible..

You assume too much Mary. I do not agree that ALL scripture where there is the Greek word Ekklesia is transliterated into any physical building of worship over time as the apostles set up a hierarchy etc.

The scripture that was central to my reply to you was concerning Matthew 16:16-18. And Ekklesia used here among other scripture was never morphed into any building of worship. You cannot really believe what you are saying?

So, you do not believe that God placed his spirit into Peter and spoke to him, as he also places his spirit in new believers and the product is the invisible assembly of God and counted as the body of Christ? It (Ekklesia) has nothing to do with worshipping God and Christ in a visible physical building. Where is this in scripture. It is not there.

Mary, I am not a part of a religious group, assembly or as you believe, a church. I did not choose an assembly. God chose me to be in his assembly. It is not recognized by physical buildings, dogmas, creeds, rituals and traditions. You are of the world and my assembly is not. It is of the Kingdom of God. I am a part of the unique assembly as the called-out ones of God that is invisible to very visible religious assemblies as yours. You might as well call yourself a church as you mother church desires this, to be a good Catholic.

Very sincerely,

Bless you and In Christ Always,


APAK

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you have a lot of typing to do in an effort to back up your bold statement.

Marymog said:

I'm curious. Why are the 2,000 year old teachings of the Catholic Church propaganda and the 500 year teachings of the protestant Churches not propaganda? What is your evidence for such a bold statement?

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Marymog said:

Hi Apak,

I'm curious. Why are the 2,000 year old teachings of the Catholic Church propaganda and the 500 year teachings of the protestant Churches not propaganda? What is your evidence for such a bold statement?

Time for a little lesson in linguistics my Christian brother: YOU are the one who used the words indo European, Greek, Germanic, Norse and old English when explaining the translation for the word Ekklesia. Those languages that YOU referred to are part of the Teutonic languages. I suspect you didn't know that there was a definition for what you were referring to, but now you do thanks to little ol' Marymog!!

As for the rest of your post I will respond to it later since I have to get ready for a funeral AND you have a lot of typing to do in an effort to back up your bold statement.

Love Mary

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APAK said:

Mary, you are a Catholic I see. I suspect you are trying to peddle Catholic false propaganda on me with its own fabricated sources and false claims? I think you are …I ‘m sorry I don’t buy into false doctrine and sources you support that you provide here as the truth.

You said I was somehow referring to those that spoke in a Teutonic language and that they used the Greek word Ekklesia for the society of Jesus. You assume too much Mary. You have added in a distraction.

The word “CHURCH” was used by the Poles and other Slavic peoples for the society of Jesus AND NOT FOR the Greek word Ekklesia. This has NOTHING to do with Ekklesia. They used the non-scriptural substitute word that you are trying to peddle to me as the real meaning in scripture. Your false source came right out of Catholic speak from their Encyclopedias.

You said that a majority of scholars now agree that (Ekklesia) it is derived from the Greek kuriakon, cyriacon, or the Lord's house. Again, your source is a false Catholic one. It is simply not true. Only Catholic biased scholars think this. Why didn’t you add in that the Catholics even say Ekklesia also means a ‘Christian’ place of worship? I guess you did further down in your reply. We have come a long way for the assembly of called-out ones of God, to a place of worship, aye?

You said that “In the writings of the New Testament the word ecclesia denotes the Church of Christ.” This is a false statement. In fact, the Catholics say even say that Ekklesia means the Catholic Church. They take many liberties with scripture don’t they.

You said “Occasionally ecclesia is employed in its general significance of "assembly" in Acts 32 and 1 Corinthians 19). By the 3rd century this term was being used to signify a Christian place of worship (a physical building).”

It was only true because the pre-Catholic pagans turned Ekklesia into another false term; opposing scripture for their own needs and desires. Again, drawn from false Catholic history and sources…not scriptural in any way. Just because they said it now means this or that, does not make it true? I’m a person that relies on scripture rather that a people that reform and misuse scripture for their own political and religious needs as these people did and many do today.

Unfortunately, thus far I do not agree to anything you have said in your reply….I will not comment on your the subject of repairing wrongs amongst brethren, at least at this time, since I'm amazed you think I'm this gullible..

You assume too much Mary. I do not agree that ALL scripture where there is the Greek word Ekklesia is transliterated into any physical building of worship over time as the apostles set up a hierarchy etc.

The scripture that was central to my reply to you was concerning Matthew 16:16-18. And Ekklesia used here among other scripture was never morphed into any building of worship. You cannot really believe what you are saying?

So, you do not believe that God placed his spirit into Peter and spoke to him, as he also places his spirit in new believers and the product is the invisible assembly of God and counted as the body of Christ? It (Ekklesia) has nothing to do with worshipping God and Christ in a visible physical building. Where is this in scripture. It is not there.

Mary, I am not a part of a religious group, assembly or as you believe, a church. I did not choose an assembly. God chose me to be in his assembly. It is not recognized by physical buildings, dogmas, creeds, rituals and traditions. You are of the world and my assembly is not. It is of the Kingdom of God. I am a part of the unique assembly as the called-out ones of God that is invisible to very visible religious assemblies as yours. You might as well call yourself a church as you mother church desires this, to be a good Catholic.

Very sincerely,

Bless you and In Christ Always,


APAK

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(your welcome)

mjrhealth said:

Who said that, you could just do as Jesus said as you always insist, and go ask Him instead of trying t o figure it out for yourself or promote a false doctrine as you do. You should stop that Phising it does you no good.

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Maybe you are?

Your the one who doesn't do what Jesus told you to do

Mary

michaelvpardo said:

I've answered you repeatedly. If you're unable to understand the answer, perhaps you remain spiritually dead. The carnal mind can not receive spiritual things. Just the same, I haven't been called to satisfy your questions, but to be a witness of God's righteous judgment, and I'll leave you and your church with one last admonition. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. The Lord said, If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29
Would the Lord hold anyone to this standard and not His own body?
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
No lie is of the truth, so put away lying and falsehoods and return to the lover of your souls, even the Lord, Jesus the Christ, blessed forever. Amen.

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APAK said:

Mary: I've decided to wrap up our discussion and answer the last part of your reply to me.

Not only does verse 16 fits a congregation or the assembly definition, verse 17 does as well; all believers in the world. You do realize that the elders, bishops and prebysers were part-time positions and held by any member of the local congregation. Each local congregation usually met at peoples’ home, halls and even existing temples. They were meeting at places of no physical significance. No one had to be ‘qualified’ to perform these duties.

Here’s a brief broad-brushed history of when the congregation of true believers were supplanted by the church and false believers we have today.

Only after a few decades or so after Christ, as Christ said correctly, the places where the body of Christ met, were eventually taken over by false teachers and followers. The true body of Christ were forced to meet and worship underground, in other insignificant buildings and rooms, as today, until Christ returns.

What replaced the true believers’ congregation and their places of worship were the false congregations with their more than meek meeting places. They began calling these buildings churches (well, in the language at the time that denoted the meaning of a 17th century word for church).

Around the beginning of the first century, truly the ‘church’ was born for false teachers and believers. They replaced the body of Christ with an administration and organization of leaders and buildings and began manipulating scripture to suit their own needs for power, notoriety and control of their local populations. This then is the birth of pre-Catholic paganism by the end of 2nd century AD that matured into the Catholic or universal church of their Christ, that is the counterfeit to Christ’s congregation.

So, for me, the invisible congregation of Christ represents all true believers which is the equivalent of your church of church believers. I go to my brethren per scripture to repair offences etc., and these are sometimes hard to locate. You go to your hierarchy of administrators or priests, maybe nuns, bishops, archbishops and pope as necessary based on the gravity of offenses. My congregation is not of this world, your counter-congregation or church is of this world.

Now the clear implication is that true believers do not frequent any Catholic or even Protestant church and structure. Fortunately, this is not quite true. Some true believers are hidden in them, and in my opinion, they may not be the most mature type of believer destined for the heavens. They are still all however, true believers, no matter, and belong in the congregation and body of Christ.

APAK

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APAK said:

Mary: what are you saying...are you speaking to yourself about a quark you have about a set of languages (that I did not include extensively) that called the 'church' the society of Jesus Christ.

These languages that I spoke of formed your 'church' word from its conception as a cave or a pagan circle of worship. The 'church' word eventually hijacked the scriptural translated word 'congregation' or 'assembly' from the Bible and common use..
..What is your point. I just don't get it.

You are forgetting about the real subject at hand. I guess you have given up on that. I already said your Catholic sourced 'Teutonic languages' thing was a red herring....or a distraction to this subject.

I am not interested in pursuing an irrelevant subject that is precious to you and not germane to the main topic.

I hope you understand.

Bless you,

APAK

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Marymog said:

He also said do this in remembrance of me. Do you? (I cant seem to find your answer)

Mary

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mjrhealth said:

What is there to remember mary, is He not with you, and if HE is how can you forget.

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