Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

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Davy

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No...no you didn't pull any punches! And so I, also, will be straight with you. I can see absolutely no evidence for this 'third' category, within scripture. There are the Jews and there are the Gentiles, and the wall in between them has been broken down by Christ, in whom we are all one.
....

I wanted to address your response on other things you suggest.

What I posted was not about some "third category".

It's about the called and the chosen sent ones. Even as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.12, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers?...". All believers on Christ Jesus are 'called', but we are not all chosen 'sent' ones, i.e., apostles.

You mean you don't agree that we are not... all apostles?
 

Naomi25

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I wanted to address your response on other things you suggest.

What I posted was not about some "third category".

It's about the called and the chosen sent ones. Even as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.12, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers?...". All believers on Christ Jesus are 'called', but we are not all chosen 'sent' ones, i.e., apostles.

You mean you don't agree that we are not... all apostles?

Well see, now you appear to be trying to be sneaky, which I don't appreciate. You outright state in your previous post that within christian circles there are two types: those that are "chosen" who "cannot lose their salvation no matter what" and those who are "called" who are in danger of it. Which is, if you then add the category of "unsaved" a fairly clear "third category". I mean, I don't care what you want to call it, but there you are.

But, clearly it's not cool to invent these things, so now I'm the one who is denying scripture? Well, whatever...I'll answer your question simply.

Yes, Paul says Christians each have different gifts. But that's still under the category of Christian...and I'm still the one saying that "Christian" just means "Christian".

Your triple negative was nice, thank you. I'll say "no", I don't think we're all apostles. It was an easy answer, as Paul is speaking rhetorically. He's expecting his audience to say no.

But I'll still note there's nothing here that speaks to a person's ability to have their salvation stripped away from them because they happen to have a different 'gift'. Because that's what this passage is about...gifts. From the Holy Spirit. That we all have. All Christians.

I mean...if you're seriously suggesting that a particular gift is going to guarantee final justification, were as another gift will see you being deceived in the end....you really need to ante up with some passages.
 

Davy

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Well see, now you appear to be trying to be sneaky, which I don't appreciate. You outright state in your previous post that within christian circles there are two types: those that are "chosen" who "cannot lose their salvation no matter what" and those who are "called" who are in danger of it. Which is, if you then add the category of "unsaved" a fairly clear "third category". I mean, I don't care what you want to call it, but there you are.

Sorry, but that's simply some category you are making up in your own mind. I haven't suggested it. There's only two groups, like Scripture says, those called and those chosen, and it's our Lord Jesus speaking it, not me:

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.

KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

KJV


But, clearly it's not cool to invent these things, so now I'm the one who is denying scripture?

No, it's not cool to invent strife against the Scripture as written, which is what you're actually doing. You are arguing against the Scripture evidence I have shown you, but you are actually being the sneaky one in trying to deny what God's Word is teaching on the matter. That is why you won't answer my simple question about Paul saying "Are all apostles?" You well... know we are not all... apostles, and thus not all "chosen" sent ones.

But it sounds like your Church has been teaching no difference between Christ's chosen Apostles and the rest of His Body. There is no difference in being 'saved' terms. But in responsibility of office in Christ's Church, and rewards, and Christ's choosing, that's... a different story:

Matt 19:27-30
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
KJV


Will you sit upon His Apostle's thrones already given to them, judging over the 12 tribes of Israel? I don't think so, I know it won't be so. We get whatever rewards we deserve based on what we have done in service for Jesus while waiting faithfully for His return. Per Rev.14, our works follow us to Heaven.
 

Naomi25

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Sorry, but that's simply some category you are making up in your own mind. I haven't suggested it. There's only two groups, like Scripture says, those called and those chosen, and it's our Lord Jesus speaking it, not me:

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.

KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

KJV




No, it's not cool to invent strife against the Scripture as written, which is what you're actually doing. You are arguing against the Scripture evidence I have shown you, but you are actually being the sneaky one in trying to deny what God's Word is teaching on the matter. That is why you won't answer my simple question about Paul saying "Are all apostles?" You well... know we are not all... apostles, and thus not all "chosen" sent ones.

But it sounds like your Church has been teaching no difference between Christ's chosen Apostles and the rest of His Body. There is no difference in being 'saved' terms. But in responsibility of office in Christ's Church, and rewards, and Christ's choosing, that's... a different story:

Matt 19:27-30
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
KJV


Will you sit upon His Apostle's thrones already given to them, judging over the 12 tribes of Israel? I don't think so, I know it won't be so. We get whatever rewards we deserve based on what we have done in service for Jesus while waiting faithfully for His return. Per Rev.14, our works follow us to Heaven.


Wait! You say that there are not categories....that's something I've made up...put in your mouth. But you ARE saying there are groups. Which are entirely different??

You do know that a synonym for group is category, right?

And, I most certainly did answer your question. If it didn't fulfill your need, I'm sorry, that's not on me. What is on the table is you proving that the gift of "apostle" comes with a separate salvation plan. And by that I don't mean by anyone other than Christ. You say that "apostle" means forever secure in election, while the other...'group' is liable to fall away due to deception. The onus here is on you. Not me...but you, to offer up scripture...any scripture, that will back this up. And anything you've given so far just doesn't. I see it mentioning Christians. I see it mentioning THE Apostles, in specific, and what do you know, they're Christians too. But I see nothing, absolutely nothing, that suggests they have assurance, while everyone else does not.
You sit there calling into question my ethics and loyalty to scripture. Nope. You came to the table with this most unorthodox idea. If you want anyone to consider it, then you ante up. It bothers me not if you do or don't, and it certainly doesn't shake my foundation. And I certainly don't feel the need to run before you proving something that is clearly in scripture. Sorry...but I just don't.
 
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Stranger

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Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Are those written in the book of life saved?

Yes.

Stranger
 

Davy

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And, I most certainly did answer your question. If it didn't fulfill your need, I'm sorry, that's not on me. What is on the table is you proving that the gift of "apostle" comes with a separate salvation plan.

There you go making stuff up again. I never said anything about some "separate salvation plan". When a believer falls away from Christ Jesus it means they... chose to do so.

But if you want to talk about separate salvation times, we can talk about Romans 11 and Apostle Paul declaring Israel being saved when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
 

Davy

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You say that "apostle" means forever secure in election, while the other...'group' is liable to fall away due to deception. The onus here is on you. Not me...but you, to offer up scripture...any scripture, that will back this up. And anything you've given so far just doesn't. I see it mentioning Christians. I see it mentioning THE Apostles, in specific, and what do you know, they're Christians too. But I see nothing, absolutely nothing, that suggests they have assurance, while everyone else does not.

I just showed you Scripture evidence, but you made no comment on it. Instead you question God's choosing of His elect, to include the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and NT Apostles.


John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV
 

Davy

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If I NEED to know something, He will show me.. :)

Heard that attitude a lot, especially from the fly away crowd.

Well, He did show you already, so I suggest you don't think He will show you again. It's already written in His Holy Writ. And it's like a personal letter written to His children.
 

Jay Ross

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There you go making stuff up again. I never said anything about some "separate salvation plan". When a believer falls away from Christ Jesus it means they... chose to do so.

But if you want to talk about separate salvation times, we can talk about Romans 11 and Apostle Paul declaring Israel being saved when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Davy, are you really sure that the English translation of Romans 11:25 actually reflects the original Greek Texts.

It is my view that Paul is referencing the end of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary and that after the completion of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary for 2,300 years, that all of Israel will be saved.
 

Davy

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Davy, are you really sure that the English translation of Romans 11:25 actually reflects the original Greek Texts.

It is my view that Paul is referencing the end of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary and that after the completion of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary for 2,300 years, that all of Israel will be saved.


That period is not about 2,300 years. The 2,300 period of Dan.8:14 is about days, not years. It is covering the time from the end of this world back 2,300 days into the first 1260 day period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" meant for the very end of this world. The 2,300 days includes the time of the daily sacrifices in the first half of the "one week" (see Dan.8:13).

Are you an Adventist? I know many of them who take the 'days for years' idea in Ezekiel and apply it elsewhere.
 

Jay Ross

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That period is not about 2,300 years. The 2,300 period of Dan.8:14 is about days, not years. It is covering the time from the end of this world back 2,300 days into the first 1260 day period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" meant for the very end of this world. The 2,300 days includes the time of the daily sacrifices in the first half of the "one week" (see Dan.8:13).

Are you an Adventist? I know many of them who take the 'days for years' idea in Ezekiel and apply it elsewhere.

Davy, the question you did not answer is whether or not you know if the English translation of the original Greek text of Rom 11:25 is right or wrong.

I know that it is wrong. Do you?
 

Davy

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Davy, the question you did not answer is whether or not you know if the English translation of the original Greek text of Rom 11:25 is right or wrong.

I know that it is wrong. Do you?

No, I don't see it being wrong. Compare with Luke 21:24 and Isaiah 59:20 about the time of fulness.
 

Jay Ross

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No, I don't see it being wrong. Compare with Luke 21:24 and Isaiah 59:20 about the time of fulness.

Well good luck in your understanding. I just hope that you are not one of the gentiles mentioned in Romans 11:25 as Paul only mentions the heathen Gentiles in this verse and makes no reference to the Christian Gentiles whom he has addressed previously in Romans.
 

Naomi25

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There you go making stuff up again. I never said anything about some "separate salvation plan". When a believer falls away from Christ Jesus it means they... chose to do so.

But if you want to talk about separate salvation times, we can talk about Romans 11 and Apostle Paul declaring Israel being saved when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

If you will recall, this conversation started because you warned that there is a particular 'group' of Christians who will be liable to be deceived in the last days.
By definition, I would say that if someone is being deceived, then they are not choosing to walk away from the faith.
And if there are two 'groups', one who cannot be deceived and loose their salvation, and one that most likely will, then how is that me making stuff up? That's clearly what you've said.


I just showed you Scripture evidence, but you made no comment on it. Instead you question God's choosing of His elect, to include the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and NT Apostles.


John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.

KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

KJV

Yes I did comment on it. I said the scripture: "you've given so far just doesn't (give the evidence you believe it does). I see it mentioning Christians. I see it mentioning THE Apostles, in specific, and what do you know, they're Christians too. But I see nothing, absolutely nothing, that suggests they have assurance, while everyone else does not."

The verses you post do not give you leave or authority to focus them just on a "few" Christians you would say have the "gift" of apostle. That is warping it. No, worse, reading something into it that simply is not there! Where is any evidence that separates Christians into groups solely based on gift category? And I'm not talking about the fact that different gifts clearly calls us to serve in different ways. You say that the gift of apostle sets those people apart...keeps them safe from deception. There is nothing in scripture that paints this separation.
 
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Jay Ross

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That period is not about 2,300 years. The 2,300 period of Dan.8:14 is about days, not years. It is covering the time from the end of this world back 2,300 days into the first 1260 day period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" meant for the very end of this world. The 2,300 days includes the time of the daily sacrifices in the first half of the "one week" (see Dan.8:13).

Are you an Adventist? I know many of them who take the 'days for years' idea in Ezekiel and apply it elsewhere.

No Davy, I am not an Adventist.
 

Davy

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If you will recall, this conversation started because you warned that there is a particular 'group' of Christians who will be liable to be deceived in the last days.

No, that is not what I showed from God's Word. All this could have been so easy if you had only stuck to what I showed from Scripture:

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

KJV

Not possible to deceive Christ's "very elect".
 

Davy

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Yes I did comment on it. I said the scripture: "you've given so far just doesn't (give the evidence you believe it does). I see it mentioning Christians. I see it mentioning THE Apostles, in specific, and what do you know, they're Christians too. But I see nothing, absolutely nothing, that suggests they have assurance, while everyone else does not."

The verses you post do not give you leave or authority to focus them just on a "few" Christians you would say have the "gift" of apostle. That is warping it. No, worse, reading something into it that simply is not there! Where is any evidence that separates Christians into groups solely based on gift category? And I'm not talking about the fact that different gifts clearly calls us to serve in different ways. You say that the gift of apostle sets those people apart...keeps them safe from deception. There is nothing in scripture that paints this separation.

Yes, there is Scripture in God's Word that sets the "very elect" chosen Apostles, prophets, and OT Patriarchs apart from the rest of the Church. There are some that God by His Own will brings into His service...

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
KJV

Jonah was another example, and Apostle Paul was the greatest example, as Jesus struck Paul down on the road to Damascus when Paul was persecuting Christ's Church. Their salvation is already assured and have already been sanctified (Rom.8).
 

Davy

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Now, back to the main thread subject...

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV


That Matt.24:23-26 section of our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse is warning of the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem. The phrase "false Christs" in the Greek is the sole word pseudochristos, made up of two Greek words, pseudo, which means false or fake, and christos which means Christ, singular. The flow of those 23-26 verses is of a singular pseudo-Christ coming that the deceived will say is our Lord Jesus. Our Lord said to believe it not.

Along with that warning, our Lord Jesus showed us what level of deception that pseudo-Christ will work on earth. He shows those "great signs and wonders" will be so powerful in deception that, "if it were possible", it would deceive even "the very elect".

That false working by the coming Antichrist is what I consider the strongest sign of warning about deception to another for the end of this world that our Lord Jesus gave His Church.

Apostle Paul repeats that warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 about the false one sitting in a temple in Jerusalem ("temple of God") and proclaiming himself to be God, and over all that is called God or that is worshiped. Paul revealed he will do those great signs and lying wonders also. In Revelation 13 with the "another beast", the false one comes doing those signs and wonders, bringing fire down from heaven in the sight of men, and the whole world will worship him except for those who's names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
 

Davy

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Well good luck in your understanding. I just hope that you are not one of the gentiles mentioned in Romans 11:25 as Paul only mentions the heathen Gentiles in this verse and makes no reference to the Christian Gentiles whom he has addressed previously in Romans.

Luck? I know you are joking, try not to be so rude.

The fulness of the Gentiles involves two things, both their coming to Christ Jesus in fulness, and also the times of the unbelieving Gentiles whom God will gather to surround Jerusalem on the last day, and help setup the pseudo-Christ. That latter point is why I directed you to the Luke 21:24 Scripture, which goes with the idea of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem for 42 months at the end per Revelation 11:1-2. But in Romans 11, Paul is mainly speaking of their 'fulness' in the coming to Christ sense by being graffed into the tree, and when that is complete, that is when the Israel that God blinded will be saved.
 

Jay Ross

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Luck? I know you are joking, try not to be so rude.

The fulness of the Gentiles involves two things, both their coming to Christ Jesus in fulness, and also the times of the unbelieving Gentiles whom God will gather to surround Jerusalem on the last day, and help setup the pseudo-Christ. That latter point is why I directed you to the Luke 21:24 Scripture, which goes with the idea of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem for 42 months at the end per Revelation 11:1-2. But in Romans 11, Paul is mainly speaking of their 'fulness' in the coming to Christ sense by being graffed into the tree, and when that is complete, that is when the Israel that God blinded will be saved.

Davy, I was being very serious, LOL, because of your miss understanding of this verse. Paul was indicating that, after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles, i.e. the 2,300 years, that all of Israel will be saved.

Now you say that Luke 21:24 is about the distant future, but I would suggest to you that it is speaking about our near future and the time when the kings of the world will be judged at Armageddon when the 2,300 year period of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary is completed after which all of Israel will be saved. Luke 14:31-32 speaks of this time.

Now with respect to your understanding of Rev 11:1-2 that is very much a distant future event and has nothing to do with the Luke 21:24 scripture as you are suggesting. Sadly, the English translations have moved towards the same understanding that you are expressing but the translation of Romans 11:25 is very much in error but the gradual growing tradition of what a verse might become in this case is also a reflection of replacement theology.