Is Jesus God?

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Is Jesus God?


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gadar perets

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Is Jesus God, or is he not?
According to our English Bibles he is God. According to the Hebrew and Greek texts he is not. The English word God is a translation of the Hebrew word elohim and the Greek word theos. Both of those words can apply to beings other than the only true God (Yeshua's Father and our Creator, Almighty YHWH). Since the English word God with a capital "G" can only apply to the one true God (Father YHWH), it is wrong to apply it to the Son because that would yield two Gods (the Father and the Son). Scripture teaches monotheism. When either elohim or theos is applied to the Son, it is to be understood in the sense that he is a lesser elohim or theos than his Father YHWH. It should therefore be translated into English as "mighty one" or "god". The fact that the Son has a God over him shows the Son is a lesser "elohim/theos" than the Elohim/Theos he worships. If Yeshua's Father is Yeshua's God and Yeshua himself is God, then, once again, we have two Gods.
 

gadar perets

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Of course Jesus was God. Jesus taught Thomas for years.

John 20:28-29 (ESV)
28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Thomas was not speaking English. Therefore, he did not say "my God". Whatever word he said in Hebrew would have been a form of "elohim" which is a word that is used of men as well (Psalm 82:6). The same is true of the Greek "theos". Yeshua is definitely "my elohim", but he is not the only true Elohim. Yeshua himself said that his Father is the "only true God" (John 17:3). Actually, Yeshua has a God that he worships and serves (Revelation 3:12). That God/Elohim is his Father YHWH. Thomas knew full well that his "God/Elohim" (Almighty YHWH) could not die. Therefore, to think that Thomas thought he was addressing the only true God/Elohim who just rose from the dead is absurd.
 

gadar perets

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Jesus is God.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
Col 1:16 ForG3754 byG1722 himG846 were all thingsG3956 created,G2936 thatG3588 are inG1722 heaven,G3772 andG2532 thatG3588 are inG1909 earth,G1093 visibleG3707 andG2532 invisible,G517 whetherG1535 they be thrones,G2362 orG1535 dominions,G2963 orG1535 principalities,G746 orG1535 powers:G1849 all thingsG3956 were createdG2936 byG1223 him,G846 andG2532 forG1519 him:G846​

As you can see by this verse with Strong’s numbers, our English word “by” is translated such from two different Greek words, “en” and “di”. Paul used TWO different words because he intended TWO different meanings for his message. Yet, our English versions do NOT make that evident, but give only one meaning.

The ASV, YLT etc., have the correct translation that brings out the meanings Paul intended.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;​

Nothing was created “by” Yeshua as the direct cause. Everything was created by his Father for, through and in Messiah.
 

gadar perets

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No Scripture exists to show that Christ was ever created;

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The latter phrase means Messiah was the first creature to be resurrected.

There is only 2 sides of debate of whether or not Jesus Christ is God.

1. Those who have been called to believe on Christ Jesus as Immanuel God with us come in the flesh to be the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, and offer all who would believe on Him everlasting Life.

or...

2. Those who refuse to recognize Christ Jesus as God The Saviour because they want to be their own god. These are antichrists, because they refuse to believe that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ.
There is at least one more side.

3. Those who recognize Messiah Yeshua as the Son of YHWH and who refuse to commit idolatry by worshiping him as the one true God.

BTW, Messiah Yeshua is indeed Immanuel which means "El with us", but that does not mean he was "El/God" anymore than Jehu which means "He is Yah" was really Yah. Yeshua was "El with us" because El/God was with him and he was with us.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for El/God was with him.
The "only true God" (John 17:3) anointed His Son (a separate being) with the Holy Spirit. YHWH, the only true El/God was with Yeshua. By extension, El/God was with us because Yeshua was with us.
 
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Angelina

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There is only one true God which consists of The Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit. Just as there is only one true Church made up of individuals of every denomination and nation and creed who believe in Jesus. Without Jesus, we have no relationship with God the Father. John 3:36, John 14:6. God said of his Son beginning at Hebrews vs 8 ~

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

 

gadar perets

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There is only one true God which consists of The Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit. Just as there is only one true Church made up of individuals of every denomination and nation and creed who believe in Jesus. Without Jesus, we have no relationship with God the Father. John 3:36, John 14:6. God said of his Son beginning at Hebrews vs 8 ~

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Yes, I understand that is the Christian view. If the Son is the one true God, then how is the Father the Son's God? Please don't tell me that only applies to the Son while he was in the flesh. Revelation 3:12 was given to us by the Son in his glorified state, yet he speaks as having a God. His God, therefore, must be a greater God. In fact, the Son's God is so much greater than the Son that the Son will be subject to his God for all eternity (1 Corinthians 15:24-28). That passage identifies that God as Yeshua's Father who Yeshua called "the ONLY true God" (John 15:3). If I am wrong about that, please correct me with Scripture.
 
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Angelina

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If the Son is the one true God, then how is the Father the Son's God?
Even the Jews understood the concept of Jesus calling God his own father and they persecuted him for it because he made himself equal to God. John 5:16.
Philippians 2:6-8 tells us that Jesus ~
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

Bodie Hodge and Paul F Taylor wrote in an article regarding "Demolishing Supposed Bible Contradictions vol 1 ~ called "Greater Than or Equal To?"
Jesus is both fully human and fully God. J.C. Ryle puts it this way: “Trinitarians maintain the humanity of Christ as strongly as His divinity. . . . While Christ as God is equal to the Father, as man He is inferior to the Father"

BTW are you a JW because they do not believe that Jesus is God...o_O JM2c
 

gadar perets

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Even the Jews understood the concept of Jesus calling God his own father and they persecuted him for it because he made himself equal to God. John 5:16.
The Jews were wrong as is your reference. The correct reference is John 5:18.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Did Yeshua break the Sabbath? Of course not. The Jews were wrong in that as well. Had Yeshua broken the Sabbath, it would be sin. Yeshua was sinless.

Philippians 2:6-8
tells us that Jesus ~
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

Interesting how you chose to quote one of the only versions (a paraphrase at that) that uses the word "nature" instead of "form".

Bodie Hodge and Paul F Taylor wrote in an article regarding "Demolishing Supposed Bible Contradictions vol 1 ~ called "Greater Than or Equal To?"
Jesus is both fully human and fully God. J.C. Ryle puts it this way: “Trinitarians maintain the humanity of Christ as strongly as His divinity. . . . While Christ as God is equal to the Father, as man He is inferior to the Father"

Trinitarians maintain the "humanity of Christ" only when it is convenient. When explaining how the Son was able to forgive sins, work miracles, receive worship, etc. while he was a man, they say it is because he was God. When explaining, for example, why the Son did not know the day or hour of his coming or why he said the Father is greater than he, they blame it on his humanity. There is no equality between the Father and the Son. Yeshua made that clear (John 14:28; John 10:29; John 13:16; 1 Corinthians 11:3). In the future, after death is no more, the Son who is no longer a flesh and blood man, but a glorified spirit being, will be subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) for all eternity.

BTW are you a JW because they do not believe that Jesus is God...o_O JM2c
I am not a JW. Their theology and other teachings are just as wrong as the Christian position. BTW, I see you edited what you originally wrote by substituting the words, "they do not believe that Jesus is God". Wise choice.
 

APAK

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Even the Jews understood the concept of Jesus calling God his own father and they persecuted him for it because he made himself equal to God. John 5:16.
Philippians 2:6-8 tells us that Jesus ~
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

Bodie Hodge and Paul F Taylor wrote in an article regarding "Demolishing Supposed Bible Contradictions vol 1 ~ called "Greater Than or Equal To?"
Jesus is both fully human and fully God. J.C. Ryle puts it this way: “Trinitarians maintain the humanity of Christ as strongly as His divinity. . . . While Christ as God is equal to the Father, as man He is inferior to the Father"

BTW are you a JW because they do not believe that Jesus is God...o_O JM2c

Angelina:

Just want to expound on the verses you quoted:

(Joh 5:16) And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.

(Joh 5:17) But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

(Joh 5:18) This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

(Joh 5:19) So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

(Joh 5:20) For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.

(Joh 5:21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

(Joh 5:22) For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

(Joh 5:23) that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (ALL ESV)

Looking at the context and verses as to why the religious Judeans were wanting to kill Jesus:

Jesus called himself the son of God and the power and spirit of his Father was in him. He literally was working with his Father’s spirit as he accomplished miracles. To these religious men Jesus was trying to be equal with God, as they had never seen anyone like Jesus before. Jesus was never the same as his Father. He just was given authority to perform acts of the Father, through his Father’s spirit, always. As it said in verse 19, Jesus said he could do nothing without his Father’s spirit or power. Jesus gained his Father’s power at his baptism…


(Php 2:6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(Php 2:7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

(Php 2:8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ALL ESV)

Verse 6 is not about Jesus being God Almighty. If he was, it would have said that, and not said in a form (outer nature, not inner nature) of God. The English word ‘shape’ used here comes from the Greek word morphe. (Strongs Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries). In several modern NT Bibles since the 20th century, the word shape or likeness as used in most Bibles, is replaced with ‘nature’ which is transliterated incorrectly.

Jesus has the outward appearance (mannerisms, actions, words, even possibly a ‘glow’) not the inward nature and self of his Father. It was not just God inside Jesus. Jesus has his own divine spirit, separate from his Father’s.

When it is said that Jesus did not consider himself equal with God is because he really could not; eventhough his actions and words were from the spirit of God working within him. He could not take the Father’s credit just because to the world it seemed that Jesus was doing all the work, alone; separate from his Father. That would be wrong.

It is supported in the next verses, 7 and 8.

When Jesus ‘emptied himself’ and becoming a servant, born as a man and obedient to death he meant it. He allowed his spirit to become nothing or dormant. He diminished his own will and allowed his Father’s will and spirit to dominate and guide his course to the cross. Without his Father’s control, Jesus may never had completed his mission. It was still his Father working within him to the cross and beyond.

These verses are important to understand that Jesus was the human servant of God and his son. Not God his Father. Missing this point means also missing the act of Jesus’ baptism and what transformed there.

Bless you,

APAK ( I don't do 'church' - not a member of any of them)
 
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Angelina

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Hi APAK
Just want to expound on the verses you quoted:
(Joh 5:16) And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.
(Joh 5:17) But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
(Joh 5:18) This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
I know honey. That is what I quoted in post 567. I did not expound on John 5:16 because I thought that gadar perets would get the main gist of my point without having to explain all the details of this passage which was [as far as I'm concerned] irrelevant to our conversation...

@gadar perets I'm not sure whether you are aware that CyB is a Trinitarian believing forum. If you choose to fellowship here, please do not be surprised if members disagree with you strongly on most lines of doctrine. :D

If the Son is the one true God, then how is the Father the Son's God? Please don't tell me that only applies to the Son while he was in the flesh. Revelation 3:12 was given to us by the Son in his glorified state, yet he speaks as having a God. His God, therefore, must be a greater God. In fact, the S's God is so much greater than the Son that the Son will be subject to his God for all eternity (9. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28). That passage identifies that God as Yeshua's Father who Yeshua called "the ONLY true God" (John 15:3).

Father God still calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 even though he is the son's God in verse 9.

Isaiah 7:14 says ~ “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” [which is a Hebrew word meaning *God with us] also see Matthew 1:23. Isaiah 9:6 tells us ~ For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
If Jesus was not God, how could he exist before Abraham was born? John 8:58-59. Strangely enough, the "I am" terminology was also used in Exodus 3:14 when God spoke with Moses out of the burning bush. We also find that same anger from the Jews regarding John 5:16 also found in John 10:30-33 where Jesus says ~ “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’The Jews who were listening were not unintelligent. They understood what Jesus was stating and they were angry enough to try to stone him.

Bless ya!
 

APAK

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Hi APAK

I know honey. That is what I quoted in post 567. I did not expound on John 5:16 because I thought that gadar perets would get the main gist of my point without having to explain all the details of this passage which was [as far as I'm concerned] irrelevant to our conversation...

@gadar perets I'm not sure whether you are aware that CyB is a Trinitarian believing forum. If you choose to fellowship here, please do not be surprised if members disagree with you strongly on most lines of doctrine. :D



Father God still calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 even though he is the son's God in verse 9.

Isaiah 7:14 says ~ “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” [which is a Hebrew word meaning *God with us] also see Matthew 1:23. Isaiah 9:6 tells us ~ For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
If Jesus was not God, how could he exist before Abraham was born? John 8:58-59. Strangely enough, the "I am" terminology was also used in Exodus 3:14 when God spoke with Moses out of the burning bush. We also find that same anger from the Jews regarding John 5:16 also found in John 10:30-33 where Jesus says ~ “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’The Jews who were listening were not unintelligent. They understood what Jesus was stating and they were angry enough to try to stone him.

Bless ya!
Angela:
I do appreciate your candor and warning. Nevertheless, let me know if you would like me explain the set of scripture you have just added. It is really no big deal for me to do so. Pretty well know them by memory.

I guess if you also have the same belief model I will not entertain you with my renditions...

God Bless,

APAK
 

Angelina

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Ohhh I also need to apologise @gadar perets. I had forgotten to add John 5:16-18, not just John 5:16. It would not have made any sense at all...my only excuse is extreme tiredness as I work night shifts and came from work when I posted the comments in 567. Bless ya!
 

Angelina

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APAK I appreciate your help but you don't have to explain the scriptures I have posted for someone else. If I didn't understand them, I would not have posted them...I am not a baby Christian o_O yah know??????
 

gadar perets

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I'm not sure whether you are aware that CyB is a Trinitarian believing forum. If you choose to fellowship here, please do not be surprised if members disagree with you strongly on most lines of doctrine. :D
I expect opposition as that is the normal response prior to acceptance of truth. I'm hopeful the opposition will be done Scripturally and not turn into personal attacks on me.

Father God still calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 even though he is the son's God in verse 9.
No, He did not. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:6 in which YHWH calls him "elohim", a word that is used of men and angels. I do not deny that Yeshua is an elohim. I deny he is "God". The word "God" with a capital "G" only applies to the one true God. Since Yeshua's God is YHWH, the only true God (John 17:3), then the word "elohim" should not be translated "God", but either "god" or "mighty one" or something else other than "God". The same holds true for the word "theos" used in Hebrews 1:8.

Isaiah 7:14
says ~ “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” [which is a Hebrew word meaning *God with us] also see Matthew 1:23.
"Immanuel" means "El with us". That name is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God/El was with him." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. Since El was with and in Yeshua and Yeshua was with us, then El/God was with us. If you choose to use that logic, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, YHWH?

Isaiah 9:6 tells us ~ For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
The Hebrew for "Mighty God" is "el gibbor" which can also be translated "mighty warrior". However, "el" is also used of men just as "elohim" is. Therefore, when applied to the Son it should not be translated "God" for the same reason I gave above for "elohim".

If Jesus was not God, how could he exist before Abraham was born? John 8:58-59. Strangely enough, the "I am" terminology was also used in Exodus 3:14 when God spoke with Moses out of the burning bush.
Exodus 3:14-15 reads, "And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "YHWH" and "Elohim (God) of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob".

And what does YHWH say in Psalm 2:7? "I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH).

Also, Acts 3:13 says, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua; whom you delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Therefore, the Son is NOT the Elohim of Israel (YHWH).

Those verses alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the "I AM." But let's look into the matter a little farther.

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Exodus 3:14 reads,

image%20340.gif


In Septuagint English it reads, "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you."

In KJV English it reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58, "I am" is "
image%20581.gif
" in Greek. As you can see, "
image%20225.gif
" in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the "
image%20412.gif
" or "the Being" or "the Existing One".

If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I am" of Ex 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was I am the Being" or "I am the Existing One".

It is believed that John 8:59 further supports the position that Yeshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as YHWH, the I AM?

Several individuals aside from Yeshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yeshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I Am" of Exodus 3:14.

We also find that same anger from the Jews regarding John 5:16 also found in John 10:30-33 where Jesus says ~ “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’The Jews who were listening were not unintelligent. They understood what Jesus was stating and they were angry enough to try to stone him.
If they understood Yeshua correctly, then why did Yeshua have to correct them in verses 34-36? Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God. He claimed to be the "Son of God". That is a really big difference. BTW, in verse 34 Yeshua quoted Psalm 82:6 in which "elohim" is used of the mighty men of Israel.
 
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APAK

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I expect opposition as that is the normal response prior to acceptance of truth. I'm hopeful the opposition will be done Scripturally and not turn into personal attacks on me.


No, He did not. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:6 in which YHWH calls him "elohim", a word that is used of men and angels. I do not deny that Yeshua is an elohim. I deny he is "God". The word "God" with a capital "G" only applies to the one true God. Since Yeshua's God is YHWH, the only true God (John 17:3), then the word "elohim" should not be translated "God", but either "god" or "mighty one" or something else other than "God". The same holds true for the word "theos" used in Hebrews 1:8.


"Immanuel" means "El with us". That name is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God/El was with him." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. Since El was with and in Yeshua and Yeshua was with us, then El/God was with us. If you choose to use that logic, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, YHWH?


The Hebrew for "Mighty God" is "el gibbor" which can also be translated "mighty warrior". However, "el" is also used of men just as "elohim" is. Therefore, when applied to the Son it should not be translated "God" for the same reason I gave above for "elohim".


Exodus 3:14-15 reads, "And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "YHWH" and "Elohim (God) of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob".

And what does YHWH say in Psalm 2:7? "I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH).

Also, Acts 3:13 says, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua; whom you delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Therefore, the Son is NOT the Elohim of Israel (YHWH).

Those verses alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the "I AM." But let's look into the matter a little farther.

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Exodus 3:14 reads,

image%20340.gif


In Septuagint English it reads, "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you."

In KJV English it reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58, "I am" is "
image%20581.gif
" in Greek. As you can see, "
image%20225.gif
" in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the "
image%20412.gif
" or "the Being" or "the Existing One".

If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I am" of Ex 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was I am the Being" or "I am the Existing One".

It is believed that John 8:59 further supports the position that Yeshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as YHWH, the I AM?

Several individuals aside from Yeshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yeshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I Am" of Exodus 3:14.


If they understood Yeshua correctly, then why did Yeshua have to correct them in verses 34-36? Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God. He claimed to be the "Son of God". That is a really big difference. BTW, in verse 34 Yeshua quoted Psalm 82:6 in which "elohim" is used of the mighty men of Israel.

gadar perets:
Quite thorough.....I wanted to also add very briefly that in Isaiah 9:6 the expression 'everlasting Father' was a poor and deliberate mistranslation.....'everlasting' was meant to mean for 'the age or last or coming age.' So Jesus would be called the father of being the first creature of many reborn in to the heavens, in the last age. He was the father of it, similar to someone producing something for the first time, he is the father of it... Jesus was the Father of 'making' or making it possible for a person to be reborn as a true believers for the coming age... until he would return the Kingdom back to his Father.

Bless you,

APAK
 

gadar perets

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gadar perets:
Quite thorough.....I wanted to also add very briefly that in Isaiah 9:6 the expression 'everlasting Father' was a poor and deliberate mistranslation.....'everlasting' was meant to mean for 'the age or last or coming age.' So Jesus would be called the father of being the first creature of many reborn in to the heavens, in the last age. He was the father of it, similar to someone producing something for the first time, he is the father of it... Jesus was the Father of 'making' or making it possible for a person to be reborn as a true believers for the coming age... until he would return the Kingdom back to his Father.

Bless you,

APAK
Thanks. I did not address "Everlasting Father" because Angelina only underlined "Mighty God". I believe the translation should be "father of eternity" meaning eternal life comes through him. Many other names with the same Hebrew construction mean "father of ..." such as Abimelech (father of the king) and Abiasaph (father of gathering), etc.
 

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I expect opposition as that is the normal response prior to acceptance of truth. I'm hopeful the opposition will be done Scripturally and not turn into personal attacks on me.


No, He did not. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:6 in which YHWH calls him "elohim", a word that is used of men and angels. I do not deny that Yeshua is an elohim. I deny he is "God". The word "God" with a capital "G" only applies to the one true God. Since Yeshua's God is YHWH, the only true God (John 17:3), then the word "elohim" should not be translated "God", but either "god" or "mighty one" or something else other than "God". The same holds true for the word "theos" used in Hebrews 1:8.


"Immanuel" means "El with us". That name is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God/El was with him." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. Since El was with and in Yeshua and Yeshua was with us, then El/God was with us. If you choose to use that logic, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, YHWH?


The Hebrew for "Mighty God" is "el gibbor" which can also be translated "mighty warrior". However, "el" is also used of men just as "elohim" is. Therefore, when applied to the Son it should not be translated "God" for the same reason I gave above for "elohim".


Exodus 3:14-15 reads, "And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "YHWH" and "Elohim (God) of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob".

And what does YHWH say in Psalm 2:7? "I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH).

Also, Acts 3:13 says, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua; whom you delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Therefore, the Son is NOT the Elohim of Israel (YHWH).

Those verses alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the "I AM." But let's look into the matter a little farther.

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Exodus 3:14 reads,

image%20340.gif


In Septuagint English it reads, "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you."

In KJV English it reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58, "I am" is "
image%20581.gif
" in Greek. As you can see, "
image%20225.gif
" in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the "
image%20412.gif
" or "the Being" or "the Existing One".

If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I am" of Ex 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was I am the Being" or "I am the Existing One".

It is believed that John 8:59 further supports the position that Yeshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as YHWH, the I AM?

Several individuals aside from Yeshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yeshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I Am" of Exodus 3:14.


If they understood Yeshua correctly, then why did Yeshua have to correct them in verses 34-36? Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God. He claimed to be the "Son of God". That is a really big difference. BTW, in verse 34 Yeshua quoted Psalm 82:6 in which "elohim" is used of the mighty men of Israel.

@gadar perets. I haven't got the time right now but I will be back to answer some of your comments when I get back from night shift tomorrow morning.... looking forward to it! ;)

 

gadar perets

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@gadar perets just as a matter of interest. I would love to gain understanding of your Messianic Hebrew roots!
And I would love to share my understanding with you, but know that I do not embrace all the teachings of that movement. I would also ask that you seek understanding in a new Christian Apologetics thread so as not to derail this one.
 
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