Baptism question that seems unbiblical

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Helen

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I believe that the Roman Church that Paul wrote to is what you and others are calling 'Catholic', yes. And I believe that I as a Christian am part of what I call the Catholic Church which is the universal Church of Jesus Christ, yes.

Stranger

Agree, yes so do I. Roman's is one of my favourite books. :)
 

Stranger

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Agree, yes so do I. Roman's is one of my favourite books. :)

Yes it is probably the most important book the Church has. It is Pauls Gospel that he received from Jesus Christ. It is a shame to me that the Church of today centers on the Gospels for their doctrine, and most especially on Matthew, and not as much on Paul.

Stranger
 

Helen

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Yes it is probably the most important book the Church has. It is Pauls Gospel that he received from Jesus Christ. It is a shame to me that the Church of today centers on the Gospels for their doctrine, and most especially on Matthew, and not as much on Paul.

Stranger

AMEN!! A man after my own heart...agree.
Roman to me is the pivotal book in the bible.
Especially once we get hold of what Paul is saying in Romans 8
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus , has made me free from the law of sin and death..." for what the law could not do through the weakness of the flesh God , by sending His Son... etc etc...

Good news.
 
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bbyrd009

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has made me free from the law of sin and death..."
nice
"you no longer have to die after you commit a sin; you now have a pathway to salvation. (confession)"
not
"once you are saved you do not have to obey the law, and you cannot sin any more because you are perfect,"
as is so often relayed, imo
 

Helen

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nice
"you no longer have to die after you commit a sin; you now have a pathway to salvation. (confession)"
not
"once you are saved you do not have to obey the law, and you cannot sin any more because you are perfect,"
as is so often relayed, imo

I have known people who preach that we cannot sin but only transgress ( I never could see the difference there!)
When I was 22 I was taught that "instant confession is instant cleansing" ...therefore we always walk in the light.
Now at 76 I am not sure what is considered 'sin' by God ...I'm hardly running out there sinning and living it up...so I can only guess that it is heart attitude..
'Woe unto me for I am undone' .... There, but for the grace of God go all of us...who in themselves can measure up? None. Only a fool would say so.
 

bbyrd009

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I have known people who preach that we cannot sin but only transgress ( I never could see the difference there!)
me neither, i mean pls
When I was 22 I was taught that "instant confession is instant cleansing" ...therefore we always walk in the light.
hmm, not sure what the bolded means? but i think i agree!
 

BreadOfLife

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I believe that the Roman Church that Paul wrote to is what you and others are calling 'Catholic', yes. And I believe that I as a Christian am part of what I call the Catholic Church which is the universal Church of Jesus Christ, yes.

Stranger
So - do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?
 
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Stranger

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So - do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

I don't know which writing you are speaking of and am too tired at this time to go check up on his writings. If you have one in particular you can cite it. If Ignatius was a Christian, a born-again believer, then we are both part of the Catholic Church. Every one in the Church of Rome and any other Church who is born-again, is part of the Catholic Church. The Universal Church of Jesus Christ.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't know which writing you are speaking of and am too tired at this time to go check up on his writings. If you have one in particular you can cite it. If Ignatius was a Christian, a born-again believer, then we are both part of the Catholic Church. Every one in the Church of Rome and any other Church who is born-again, is part of the Catholic Church. The Universal Church of Jesus Christ.

Stranger
Thank you for that cop-out of an answer. Now, please address my question. I'll even give you the reference.
Do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius, along with Polycarp was a student of the Apostle John.
 

BreadOfLife

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not for you anyway, right.

fwiw i would suggest to anyone who wishes to get along better in the world to take your advice and ignore mine, if that helps.
That's just it.
Nobody knows of you're giving advice or giving a recipe for borscht.
Your posts are always too cryptic to be anything more than an exercise in futility . . .
 

Stranger

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Thank you for that cop-out of an answer. Now, please address my question. I'll even give you the reference.
Do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius, along with Polycarp was a student of the Apostle John.

You're quite welcome. I did address your question. The universal Church, the Catholic Church is made up of all born-again believers. Whether Ignatius or any other Church father recognize this or write on this is really immaterial .

And Jesus Christ is present in His people, those who have been born-again. And there is the Catholic Church.

Stranger
 
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bbyrd009

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funny Stranger, i can totally agree with the words, and yet i would be very suspicious of anyone coming up to me saying "i am a great guy; you'll be glad you met me." Yet we pretty much seek these out in Christianity; seems kind of short-sighted to me
i've come to understand someone telling me "i'm saved" as "i am deluded, and probably insane."
 

BreadOfLife

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You're quite welcome. I did address your question. The universal Church, the Catholic Church is made up of all born-again believers. Whether Ignatius or any other Church father recognize this or write on this is really immaterial .

And Jesus Christ is present in His people, those who have been born-again. And there is the Catholic Church.

Stranger
And you're dodging the question again.
That's not what I asked you.

I asked you the following question:
Do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

In other words, he speaks of being obedient to the Clergy.
He talks about the SOLE Eucharist that we believe in.
He talks about the Bishops having Authority over all matters affecting the Church.

Now - do YOU believe that the "Catholic Church" described by Ignatius of Antioch - student of the Apostle John - is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?
 

Stranger

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And you're dodging the question again.
That's not what I asked you.

I asked you the following question:
Do you believe that this "Catholic Church" that Ignatius of Antioch wrote about is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

In other words, he speaks of being obedient to the Clergy.
He talks about the SOLE Eucharist that we believe in.
He talks about the Bishops having Authority over all matters affecting the Church.

Now - do YOU believe that the "Catholic Church" described by Ignatius of Antioch - student of the Apostle John - is the SAME Catholic Church that YOU belong to?

I'm not dodging anything. The Christian is to obey those in leadership positions, be they pastors, elders, bishops, or leaders. I don't hold to any clergy/laity as every believer is a priest. And I believe any one of those in leadership positions can administer the Lord's Supper. Just like any believer can administer baptism.

Again, as I said, the Catholic church is the universal Church of Jesus Christ made up of born-again believers. It doesn't matter what denomination they are in or how many times the Roman church has split.

If Ignatius disagrees with me, but he is Christian, then both he and I are in the Catholic Church.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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I'm not dodging anything. The Christian is to obey those in leadership positions, be they pastors, elders, bishops, or leaders. I don't hold to any clergy/laity as every believer is a priest. And I believe any one of those in leadership positions can administer the Lord's Supper. Just like any believer can administer baptism.

Again, as I said, the Catholic church is the universal Church of Jesus Christ made up of born-again believers. It doesn't matter what denomination they are in or how many times the Roman church has split.

If Ignatius disagrees with me, but he is Christian, then both he and I are in the Catholic Church.

Stranger
Actually - you and Ignatius differ in what you believe.

Ignatius believed that we must be obedient to our clergy - as we would be obedient to CHRIST.
He stated that the SOLE Eucharist was the one celebrated by the BISHOP.
Ignatius wrote that those, like YOU who hold HETERODOX denied that the Eucharist was the "flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again."

Soooo - either YOU or he are NOT Catholic.