Hell . . . The Bad News.

aspen · Mar 1, 2018

brakelite said:
Calling 'dualism' as a trap coming from a Catholic (at least I think you are Catholic, sorry if I'm wrong) comes as somewhat of a surprise, unless I misunderstand the concept, or you. From what I understand, Greek philosophy, in particular Plato, viewed the physical realm and the spiritual as being quite at enmity with one another, the spirit, or soul, being 'trapped' in its corrupt ad limited body. Did not Thomas Aquinas somehow extend this in Catholic thought? Or was it Augustine? That concept has been brought to us in Christendom in the idea of a soul having an independent 'mind' of its own, or is the actual mind itself, and immortal. Anyway, I agree its a trap. I think the current Christian concept of the departure of the (immortal) soul, as a continuing living entity, is a pagan concept inherited from Greek philosophy, and not taught in scripture. Believing in an eternally burning hell where the wicked live in some form or another suffering and having the ability to think and continue presumably to sin and offend and blaspheme God for all eternity, is necessary only because there must be found a place for the immortal 'soul' to live if found without Christ. As the devil said to Eve, "ye shall not surely die'...how can an immortal soul die? We don't know, but it clearly does, because the word of God tells us it does. (Ezek 18:4,20). Thus to my mind, if the soul dies, it cannot be immortal.
I believe that Genesis 2:7 encapsulates and gives the skeletal truth for the rest of scripture on the nature of man. I believe all further revelation on mind/soul/body ought to be judged in context and in relation to creation...not in context to Plato. Man became a living soul, not given one. So when scripture speaks of the soul leaving a man, or described as dying as in Ezek 18 above, and as mentioned and referenced by a previous poster in defense of Plato's concept in another thread in 1 Kings 17, we ought to read that in context of Genesis 2:7, which necessarily brings a different light to the discussion. It is the whole person which dies...body, soul, and spirit.
On another note, and which further contradicts dualism (as I understand the term not being a philosopher) when we read the gospels we read how Jesus healed the physical where necessary before attending to the spiritual. I think that therefore there is an intimate connection between the two...that in many cases if the mind is not right, the body is directly affected but the body needs to be attended to first because the pain, discomfort is such a distraction that the needs of the spirit/mind for most people are neither recognized nor seen as important in the overall scheme of things ...clarity of the spiritual needs comes when we are not distracted by our infirmities. Either way, I believe they are intimately linked, as Genesis 2 revels.

Yes, I am Catholic. I think SDA teachings have misrepresented Catholicism quite a bit. We are not Neoplatonist or semipelagians or the beastpower. Yes, Augustine had some dualistic tendencies held over from his days before his conversion to Christianity, when he was involved with the Manichaeism heresy, but he was orthodox in his beliefs. None of the Apostolic Father taught dualism of the body/soul.

Webers_Home · Mar 1, 2018

-
POSIT: It's impossible to know for sure who's going to hell.

RESPONSE: Though it's impossible to know for sure who's going to hell; it's
not all that difficult to know who's on track for hell.

● John 3:14-18 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son
of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have
eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

. . . For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but
to rescue the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned,
but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not
believed in the name of God's one and only son.

The koiné Greek word for "believe" in that passage means to trust and/or
rely upon; which is very different than merely consenting that Christ
existed; for example the incident with Moses in Num 21:5-9.

Anyone who failed to look to the model that he fashioned was sure to die
from snake bite. It alone was their only God-given hope of recovery; not
sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not scapulars,
not confession, not the Eucharist, not rosaries, not holy days of obligation,
not the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not good deeds, not Bible
study and/or Sunday school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not love,
not the Ten Commandments, not one's religion of choice, no; not even
prayers. The model was it; nothing else would suffice to save their lives.

As an allegory, the brazen serpent indicates that Christ's crucifixion for the
sins of the world is the only sure-fire, God-given rescue from the wrath of
God; and when people accept it, then according to John 3:14-17 and John
5:24, they qualify for a transfer from death into life.

Those who fail to entrust their safety to his crucifixion as the only sure-fire,
God-given protection from the wrath of God are placed on the docket to face
it; and that can apply to anybody: both the good, the bad, and the not so
bad-- bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives,
bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless
bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, monarchs,

. . . statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors,
chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges,
nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors,
weathermen, and birdwatchers, et al --people from every walk, every
career, every religion, every culture, every language, every ethnic, every
craft; the male, the female, and the non binary; every status, every class,
and every caste: they're all dead men walking; i.e. on track for the sum of
all fears.

/

bbyrd009 · Mar 1, 2018

Webers_Home said:
it's
not all that difficult to know who's on track for hell.

satanic yack, imo

you cannot even Quote "hell" from Scripture; give it a try, and see
nevermind the other point, that you might somehow be qualified to determine who is "on track for hell."

this is straight judgement of others, pure and simple, wadr
it's not that difficult to know you're on track for hell, maybe

perhaps you might appreciate it if i now "witnessed" to you, huh
if i am called to pull you from the flames

just say the word, ok

bbyrd009 · Mar 1, 2018

see, it isn't difficult at all; until you (wake up, and) put yourself in their place

bbyrd009 · Mar 1, 2018

brakelite said:
or you.

A is not your typical Catholic, imo

brakelite said:
I think the current Christian concept of the departure of the (immortal) soul, as a continuing living entity, is a pagan concept inherited from Greek philosophy, and not taught in scripture. Believing in an eternally burning hell where the wicked live in some form or another suffering and having the ability to think and continue presumably to sin and offend and blaspheme God for all eternity, is necessary only because there must be found a place for the immortal 'soul' to live if found without Christ.

nice

bbyrd009 · Mar 1, 2018

brakelite said:
It is the whole person which dies...body, soul, and spirit.

hmm. i am dying to shoot some arrows at this, but find that i cannot.
the soul dies? we certainly have "dead souls..."
hmm

how do you envision resurrection in this context? ty

brakelite · Mar 1, 2018

@aspen “Whose work is it but your own to open your eyes? But indeed the business of the universe is to make such a fool out of you that you will know yourself for one, and begin to be wise.”
― George MacDonald, Lilith A and Lilith, 1896: A Duplex
Reminds me of the text which is possibly one of the first lessons a Christian must learn..."Without Me ye can do nothing".

I have never studied philosophy, and am very ignorant regarding it. So, a question. Is neo-platanism the same essentially as Platonic thought or is it a derivative? It wasn't neo-platonism that I considered as being Catholic, but rather the thoughts of Plato himself, in the concept of the soul being a separate entity capable of life and immortality outside of the body. That is what I thought was dualism, sort of. And what I object to in current Christian thinking. Genesis 2:7 declares that the whole person is the soul...body+spirit=soul. Body-spirit (life force/breath returned to God) =death. No-where in scripture does it suggest that the life-force or spirit continue to live in some form of cognizant awareness of self existence having the ability to experience pain, joy, love, hate etc. In fact, quite the opposite.

bbyrd009 said:
hmm. i am dying to shoot some arrows at this, but find that i cannot.

far out man, that's a first. No-one has ever said that to me before. I'm going out tonight to celebrate....oh, no can't do that. It's Sabbath. I'll celebrate at home. TY!!

bbyrd009 said:
the soul dies? we certainly have "dead souls..."
hmm

how do you envision resurrection in this context? ty

The whole man, Adam, sinned. Therefore the sentence and promise of death comes upon the whole person. Not just the body. What God created: dust + breath of life (spirit) =soul; sinned, therefore the whole man died. Now unless we change the entire meaning of the word death when it comes to spirit, then we must assume that the spirit , or the soul (being the whole person) also dies. It therefore has no "change of address" as some believe, but remains in the grave (sheol/hell) until the resurrection, except for that which gave the body it's life, the breath. Now the scripture tells us that the life is in the blood...it is the breath that gives the blood oxygen without which the body dies. Death brings the whole process to an abrupt stop. Then the whole person revives...the breath of life returns, the body or dust is regathered from where it came from and the soul once again becomes a living breathing entity. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Solomon knew nothing of a soul or spirit continuing to live after the body dies. In the context and language of the verse above, Solomon, when he said thy hand and thy might, he was talking to the whole person..not just the body.
Take Lazarus for example. Where was he when Jesus called him from the tomb. Did Lazarus come fro a conscience existence elsewhere? Did Jairus's daughter? And the many others who Jesus raised up we aren't told about? There must have been a great deal of grumbling around Israel fro all those people raised from the comfortable rest in Abraham's 'bosom' to have to come back to their moaning parents, niggly wives, and a world occupied by a foreign power. But none did. No-one complained, no-one rebuked Jesus by challenging Him "whadya do that for!!" No, they were raised from a sleep to be given life and further opportunity to live a life cut short by an enemy...death.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, ('soul' sleep is meant by many as a pejorative term, but in essence it is the whole person, the living soul, that sleeps) but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (again, the whole person, not just the body) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (Paul isn't just talking bout his body, he is talking about himself,his whole self, the living soul)
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Similar can be said to the incident (some 'incident') when God sent Adam and Eve away from the garden. He set a guard against the gates, so that they couldn't partake of the tree of life and "live forever". Again, what would be the point of taking such a step if their so-called inner self could live forever anyway? No, sin brought mortality upon the entire being...so the entire being dies, and therefore there is absolutely no truth in the theory of eternal torment. The whole person after the resurrection of the damned at the end of the 1000 years , again the whole person is cast into the lake of fire...body,soul,spirit.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (first death common to all men) but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(second death applying only to the eternally lost). (BTW, this 'hell' is not the same 'hell' translated from sheol in the OT The translators brought their own opinions to these scriptures.)

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

bbyrd009 · Mar 1, 2018

brakelite said:
until the resurrection

ok, ty

Taken · Mar 2, 2018

brakelite said:
The whole man, Adam, sinned. Therefore the sentence and promise of death comes upon the whole person. Not just the body.

What God created: dust + breath of life (spirit) =soul; sinned, therefore the whole man died.

Now unless we change the entire meaning of the word death when it comes to spirit, then we must assume that the spirit , or the soul (being the whole person) also dies.

Death does have duplicate meanings.
One death per the Natural, physical.
One death per the Spiritual, ie Separation from God, whether or not the natural physical thing is living.

It therefore has no "change of address" as some believe, but remains in the grave (sheol/hell) until the resurrection, except for that which gave the body it's life, the breath.

I would say this is a Complicated issue.

Dealing with the creation ~ of God, what He created;

God created/FORMED A MAN, From Dust.
What is the MAN?
A Form called A BODY.
What is the makeup of the Body?
Bones, Tissue, Organs, Blood, Nerves,
...Mind (thoughts in the Brain)
...Spirit (thoughts in the Heart) etc.
All Natural things, out of a created Natural earth.

And this Created MAN, did WHAT?
Nothing.
This Created MAN, could DO NOTHING of itself.

Thus, so far, a man has been CREATED and FORMED. FROM Dust. And can do nothing.

Then what? God ALSO "MADE" man.
Made WHAT? Souls. From What? Dust?
Scripture doesn't say.
Scripture specifically says, The Form came from Dust, was called man, and that Formed Body shall Die and Return to Dust.

And the "MADE soul" ?
Scripture specifically says; ALL souls belong to God.

And LIFE IN a soul?
God IS LIFE. The Life IN the soul belongs to God.

A soul that God has MADE, is His.
The Life IN the soul that God MADE, is His.
Isa 57:16

So - WHAT about this Created Formed Dust Body, called Man?

Does it have LIFE? It has the Natural construct TO LIVE, but has NOT YET been MADE LIVING.

How is this Created Formed MAN, MADE to be LIVING?

Gods intent -
To Create a man, by forming him out of dust.
To MAKE the man In Gods Likeness.

(Here we see the difference between;
Create AND Make.)

To Create something - Something Does Not exist, and then Exists.
To Make something - is to Give something that DOES Exist to the existing Something.

God was NOT created.
Man WAS created and formed from Dust.

For God to 'MAKE' man in Gods Likeness,
Man would thus Receive, Something Given the Formed Body.

Souls belong to God.
Life belongs to God.
A soul IS NOT GOD.
A soul IS something God has MADE.
Life IS something God has IMPARTED into a soul.

And what now IS a soul, with Gods Life in it?
A Living Soul.

And HOW Does God IMPART a LIVING SOUL, into a BODY? Via HIS BREATH, breathing INTO the BODY.

And WHY? Because a BODY WITHOUT something to BRING the BODY into LIVING, is a BODY that is Neither Living or Dead.

It is called QUICKENING. Meaning even though the Body was FORMED, TO LIVE, it cannot LIVE UNTIL it is ... BROUGHT INTO A LIVING STATE, WITH LIFE FROM GOD.

The Life from God, that quickens a Body, IS a SOUL, with Life from God, called a Living Soul, and is quickened Via Gods Breath.

Thus, Gods INTENT, was to MAKE a Created Body, and in His Likeness....ALIVE.
Gen 1:26

Gen 1:26...Created
Gen 2:7.....Formed
Gen 2:7.....Made

The Bodily Form, once quickened, with a Living Soul....Now becomes a BODY that is ALIVE, with it's OWN BLOOD, which is the body's own Life.

IOW - the Living soul is the catalyst that activates the Body into it's OWN Living state.

Everything OF and IN the Body, is called BY ONE Identity. And God does not NAME (yet), the Body...(and all that is in it)....the Parents name the Body...(and all that the body IS, and what IS IN the Body is "officially" called by that ONE NAME).
(And to note, that ONE body, can have numerous names, titles, of his own choosing, or even others choosing, that that ONE accepts).

Point being -
What belongs to the man IS the mans.
What belongs to God, IS Gods.
Life that belongs to God IS Gods, and CANNOT DIE.
Things that God MAKES IS Gods, and at His Pleasure, He can control and do with, as He Pleases.

Man's LIFE, is His Blood.
God has provided, air, food, water, shelter...
...that man can USE, to Keep his Life living.
Or Not.
Man can KILL his own Life, by interrupting the operation of his Blood, which beats his Heart and maintains his life.

Man CANNOT Kill the living soul, within his body, called by his identity, "his soul".

Man's OWN body, via Gods design, reproduced, by a mans natural seed, and Formed by God.

Man's planting of his natural seed, and fertilizing a woman's seed, is the method for reproducing mans like Kind of thing.

When the thing is revealed, it is called born;
It was Formed by God, receives it Quickening of a Living Soul, and begins it's own individual life, with IT''S OWN Blood maintaining it's own natural life.

Point being - The BODY is born CORRUPT, from a CORRUPT SEED of man.

The BODY, is sentenced TO DEATH, for it's Corruption. It began with Adam. In the day He ate of the forbidden fruit. His Body was warned not to eat. Or he would die. His Body ate. His Body Died that DAY. Physically? No.
Separated from God? Yes.

There are Physical Deaths, and Spiritual Deaths. Any Separation FROM God IS a Spiritual Death.

Adams BODY was sentenced to Death.
And Where ADAM's BODY and God had BEEN in the Garden together...Adam was removed from Gods Presence, separated from God, THAT DAY HIS BODY ATE. From there forward, mans reproducing seed, became corrupt. And ALL men are reproduced and BORN IN SIN...ie Separated from God.

What about Adam's SOUL? Did it become separated from God, on the SAME DAY Adam's Body was separated from God?

Yes. Adam's BODY became separated from God, and Adam removed from the Garden.
His Body STILL being subject to PHYSICAL DEATH. And we learn His Body died.

Yes. Adam's SOUL became separated from God.....BUT.....was SAVED/RESTORED, (His SIN Covered) unto God BEFORE Adam Left the Garden.

The Death of the Body, is Mans Sentence.
All bodies shall die.

The Living Soul, given the Body IS NOT CORRUPT. But is SHALL become CORRUPT, being IN A CORRUPT BODY.

The BODY IS Sentenced TO DEATH, "FOR" it's Corruption.

And the Living soul? IF it also were SENTENCED to DEATH....ALL SOULS would HAVE TO DIE.....but that is not the case.

SOULS can BE SAVED...FROM WHAT?
From it's Corruption of being in a corrupt body.
From a Spiritual Death...separated from God.

IOW, the living soul....Belongs to God.
The Living soul, becomes subject to what the body does, because it is IN the Body.

The living soul, being MADE subject to the Body; CAN DIE - not physically by the man.
But rather by what the mans Body does...
The soul, can become Separated from God...
A spiritual death.

IOW -
Man cannot KILL a soul.
Man cannot KILL the Life in a soul.
Man CAN cause a soul to be Separated from God. (Spiritual death)
Man CAN Kill Body's.
All Body's SHALL DIE.
God CAN cause a soul to BE RESTORED from Separation from Him....BACK to Him.
ONLY God can physically KILL a soul.
Life FROM God Never Dies.

Life from God, is what is IN a Living Soul.
Life, belongs to God.
Souls, belong to God.
God Imparts Living souls into Body's.
God Departs Living souls out of Physically Dead Body's.

Living souls, having been IN physical bodys, know, learn, hear, feel, see, Everything the physical body has experienced.

Living souls, are things with Gods Life in them. Life from God DOES NOT occupy DEAD BODY'S.

IOW -
Life of the BODY is BLOOD, it SHALL die.
Life of the SOUL is Gods LIFE, Gods LIFE shall NEVER DIE, but LIFE from God CAN and WILL be Departed from SOULS, and SOULS destroyed.

There Has BEEN NO DESTRUCTION of Gods SOULS....."YET"

There SHALL BE NO DESTRUCTION of Gods SOULS.....UNTIL AFTER THEY ARE JUDGED and SENTENCED.

Every BODY that has been created AND born, and MADE, having RECEIVED a LIVING SOUL...

IS...a body sentenced to DEATH.

EVERY LIVING SOUL, the life thereof, and the soul itself, BELONGS TO GOD.

NO LIVING SOULS have yet BEEN JUDGED.
Living Souls, that HAVE DEPARTED physically DEAD BODY'S....
ARE ALL WAITING JUDGEMENT DAY.

SOME living souls, HAVE been SAVED, and are forever RECONCILED, RESTORED, and GOD WITH THEM, and those SOULS WITH God, (whether IN or OUT of Body).

In the body,Gods Spirit is With Them on Earth
Our of body,Gods Spirit is With Them in Heaven.

SOME living souls, HAVE NOT been SAVED, and (in body) ON earth can BE Saved.
And (out of body) are waiting Separated from God, in Hell. (Not on earth, Not in Heaven).

Living souls, IN HELL, are called Dead.
They are ALIVE...yet dead, BECAUSE they are Separated from God...spiritually dead.

Just as a physically alive man IS called DEAD,
(Crucified). This spiritually dead man, IS acceptable to God, BECAUSE the death, was Gods Spirtual ACT, according to His design, that SUCH a body "GIVEN" to Him FOR Him to KILL, Becomes JUSTIFIED to be MADE forever alive. (Remember Jesus GIVING His BODY, FOR God to KILL IT, and He being FOREVER ALIVE thereafter?)

IOW - every body SHALL die...but the scenario changes, when a MAN GIVES his own body to God, for Him to Kill it.

The QUESTION OF HELL....continued.

God Bless,
Taken

APAK · Mar 2, 2018

Brethen (Brakelite and Taken):

I've been reading your difficult subject concerning the composition of a human being here on earth and beyond. I just want to clear up some jargon or names for where a 'person' goes...when they DIE (1st death or separation) they do not go to HELL....

OT Sheol = NT Hades (initially located with paradise or Abraham's bosom) then later paradise separated within the boundaries of heaven for saved folks)
Hell = Lake of Fire = Gehenna = Tartarus = Outer Darkness = 2nd Death or separation = FINAL place or state for fallen and unsaved spirits

Am I correct?

Bless you,

APAK

Taken · Mar 2, 2018

..brakelite
..byGrace

The QUESTION OF HELL

Why didn't the OT men mention Hell?

Maybe they DIDN'T KNOW!

1) Men knew, and SAW body's.
2) Men Saw dead body's
3) Men Buried dead body's.
4) Men knew, had a soul.
5) Men called their body, their soul...a Man
6) Men knew, souls departed a dead body.
7) Men called, souls spirit.
8) Men said, spirit departed a dead body.

Where did this Departed...soul/spirit go?

Where they buried bodies?
To a different grave?
To God?
Float around in the air?

Could men SEE a soul?
Could men SEE a spirit?

The dilemma -
They didn't really KNOW, where the soul/spirit went.

The DEAD BODY, however they KNEW where it went. They COULD see it. And they were the ones who BURIED it.

A man can be given a HINT, but then that is NOT FLAT OUT TELLING a man precisely.

Many things were NOT FLAT OUT TOLD to OT men.

IOW - Some KNOWLEGE was reserved.

And OT men KNEW THAT!

Deut. 29:29
The secret things belong to the LORD our God:
But those things which ARE REVEALED belong unto us and to our children FOR EVER.
That we may do all the words of this law.

Thus what IS NOT revealed, IS SECRET and belongs to God....UNTIL He reveals it.

Secondly, WHAT God DID reveal to OT men, was INFORMATION, SO "THEY" could Do what the Law required.

Was there ANY LAW, that required MEN TO:
Depart a living soul from a body?
Send that living soul ANYWHERE?
Depart a spirit from a body?
Send a spirit ANYWHERE?

IOW-
Men were told a soul departs a dead body.
Men were told a body dies.
Men were told to bury bodies.

Men were NOT TOLD they were responsible for Departing souls or spirits FROM a Body.

Men were NOT TOLD they were responsible for Sending souls or spirits ANYWHERE.

They had NO NEED to KNOW, WHERE souls or spirits Go, once departed from a dead body.

JESUS, expressly revealed MORE knowledge, that HAD been KEPT Secret.

Luke 16 (in brief, revealing more knowledge)
22:
...Rich man also died...and was buried.

And what do we do with Dead men? Their body's? Bury them. Do dead body's of men, see, hear, speak, taste, smell? Are all dead body's gathered together in one grave?
If we bury a dead body, is it in torments, feeling Anything?

No. Dead men KNOW nothing.

Luke 16: (in brief)
23:
And In HELL, lift up his eyes, being in torments.

And IN HELL, a conversation takes place between WHAT? Dead Bodies, that men buried?

Acts 2:26
Flesh rests in hope;

Where is dead flesh resting?
In a grave where men bury dead flesh body's.

Hope of what?

Acts 2:27
...thou will NOT LEAVE my soul in hell.

How did a soul get DOWN to hell?
DOWN - 2 Pet 2

How? Carried by angels.
Luke 16:22

And? Thus IF one, reads what IS revealed, whether it had been kept secret from some, and later revealed, He can LEARN what becomes of Body's, Soul's, Spirits of man.

Toward the end of the OT...in Ezekiel, Knowledge is revealed, the Lord gives men a new heart, and a new spirit....

WHO, ie WHICH men receive a new heart, and new spirit; is hint in the OT, but expressly revealed in the NT.

Souls in the OT, are hinted to become Saved, and in the NT are expressly told HOW and FROM WHAT they become saved.

Did OT men have the need to know, HOW a soul was saved? Or how a spirit is reborn?
Or where a soul separated from God WAS in Waiting? No.

God gave OT men VERBAL knowledge.
God even called them Stiffnecked, because VERBAL knowledge was not sufficient for men.
God gave OT men foreshadowing, saying God would do such n such, and Men would then SEE it come to pass, and yet men were not satisfied.
God declared to OT men that GOD created and made everything, and yet men were nto satisfied.

Men begged to SEE God. Moses did, Job did,
God Promised they would SEE.
When God SENT Jesus in the likeness of a man....Men did not realize God was showing man, Himself.
Men looking at Jesus, still begged to SEE God..
Philip did, Thomas did.....
WHILE Jesus was ON Earth, it was REVEALED, He IS the CHRIST, God with us.
Some believed, Some didn't.

Jesus was our LIVING EXAMPLE of God in the Flesh....teaching, showing, revealing to men things that HAD been Kept Secret.

Jesus hanging on the cross, Having accomplished what He came to fulfill, teach, reveal, show...

1) first commended HIS SPIRIT to Gods hands

2) second bodily died, His BLOOD dead.

3) was buried by men in a Cave, NOT DOWN in the ground.

4) His soul went to hell for 3 days

5) His soul returned to his body, and his body rose up.

6) His body resumed living without Blood.

7) He was WHOLLY seen by living men ON the earth. And continued living ON the earth for a short while.

10) He Bodily arose BACK to heaven, from whence His body came.

11) His Body sits at the right hand of God.

12) His Spirit came back down from Heaven, and IMPARTS into Every man that heartfully, believes in God.

SO IS HELL, a place DOWN, in the Earth, but NOT ON the Earth? Yes.

IS Hell a place of WAITING, for living souls, departed their bodies. Yes.

Once it was a Waiting Place for ALL souls, saved and not saved.

Now it is a Waiting Place for ONLY souls that are not saved.

God Bless,
Taken

Webers_Home · Mar 2, 2018

-

Taken said:
Where did this Departed...soul/spirit go?

Human life consists of three components: body, soul, and spirit. (1Ths 5:23
and Heb 4:12)

The body is easy to kill, but the soul; not so much. (Matt 10:28)

But even after people's body and soul are terminated, there's still the spirit
component to consider.

According to Gen 2:7 and Jas 2:26, the spirit component is what provides
human life with consciousness.

So; what happens to people's consciousness when their body and soul are
destroyed as per Matt 10:28? Where does it go? What's done with it?

Solomon believed that people's consciousness returned to God when they
pass away (Ecc 12:7) but that was the extent of his information. He didn't
know anything more beyond that.

The extent of Jesus Christ's information goes well beyond Solomon's limits
(John 1:1-3, John 3:31-34, Col 2:3 and Col 2:9) So, if Christ's teachings at
Luke 16:19-31 are a factual, true life story; then it's readily apparent that
human consciousness is transferrable to another existence in the afterlife.

/

bbyrd009 · Mar 2, 2018

strikes me as just a fancy way to say that the soul still exists in some form, but i agree
even if it is not embodied, or what we deem alive

Taken · Mar 2, 2018

Webers_Home said:
-

Human life consists of three components: body, soul, and spirit. (1Ths 5:23
and Heb 4:12)

The body is easy to kill, but the soul; not so much. (Matt 10:28)

But even after people's body and soul are terminated, there's still the spirit
component to consider.

According to Gen 2:7 and Jas 2:26, the spirit component is what provides
human life with consciousness.

So; what happens to people's consciousness when their body and soul are
destroyed as per Matt 10:28? Where does it go? What's done with it?

Solomon believed that people's consciousness returned to God when they
pass away (Ecc 12:7) but that was the extent of his information. He didn't
know anything more beyond that.

The extent of Jesus Christ's information goes well beyond Solomon's limits
(John 1:1-3, John 3:31-34, Col 2:3 and Col 2:9) So, if Christ's teachings at
Luke 16:19-31 are a factual, true life story; then it's readily apparent that
human consciousness is transferrable to another existence in the afterlife.

/

You mention "consciousness" which I would say is the Mind thoughts....that can recall, remember some things, but typically not all things.

And the "Subconsciousness" more like the Soul that has recall and total memory of everything that mans life has experienced.

Inanutshell ~
God is Life and imparts Life from Him into 'things", "body's, IOW a type of "vessel" that can Hold Life from God.

I believe God creates and Forms body's (a type of vessel) from dust. This is a man.

I believe God makes soul's (a type of vessel)

I believe God Imparts Life from Him into a soul, and thus the soul has Life IN IT.

I believe God Imparts the Living Soul into a Body and the Body Comes into a Living state.

I believe God imparts the Living Soul BY blowing into the body, His breath of Life.

I believe Once the Living Soul is in the body;
The Body begins it's own individual Life...
Which IS the Body's Blood.
Now the MAN, is a formed body and Living soul. Both, body and soul, called by the mans name.

God Requires the Life (Blood) of Every body He has created, that it shall die, and return to dust.

The Living Souls departs the dead/dying body.

Where the Soul goes, DEPENDS on the ERA.
OT men ALL souls went to Hell,
Hell was divided;
A comfort side, with the Tree of Life (ie Lords Presence), ie Paradise, for the Saved Souls.
...Waiting for Jesus' Soul to come and leave
Hell.
A torment side, void of The Lord, unpleasant, for Unsaved Souls.

They could communicate, see one another, but not mingle, as they were divided by a great gulf.

So Yes, Livings Souls, departed out of dead bodies do have the same thoughts and memories the body's mind had...
Senses of hearing, seeing, speaking, touch, smell.

When Jesus was on the cross DYING...
His Spirit departed and went to Gods hands.
His Living Soul departed and went to hell.
His Body was buried in a Tomb.

Since Jesus Living Soul Went to Hell....
And LEFT..
All the "saved" livings souls, thereafter went to Heaven, and WAIT for the resurrection and glorification of their body's.
All "saved" living souls, continue to go to Heaven, and WAIT for the resurrection and glorification of their body's

All "unsaved" living souls still Go to Hell, separated from God.
These souls are Waiting for Judgement.

The Unsaved living, shall die during the ending of the tribulation.
All the Unsaved dead in their graves shall be resurrected...and the dead body's from the tribulation....
All the bodies of the unsaved, shall thus (without glorification) be resurrected and sent to Hell.

In Hell those bodies shall have their living souls imparted into their bodies.

The Lord shall appear before them;
They shall All SEE HIM, and Believe.
They shall bow on blended knee, worship Him.

Thereafter The Evidence (books) shall be opened.
There will be NO Evidence of their Body or Soul having been Forgiven or Saved.

Thereafter The Judgement.
ie The Penalty for not being Forgiven or Saved.

Thereafter The Sentence.
The Living Soul shall depart their Body...
...that will render their body dead.
The Life in the Soul shall depart the Soul...
...The Life will return to God.
...the Soul will be rendered Not Living.

The Body and Soul, thereafter destroyed.
Where does it go?
Some things indicates, outer darkness..
Some things indicates, lake of fire, (to be forever purified)

I tend to lean toward outer darkness..
(Seems I recall, all memory of them shall be erased. And the fire pit was prepared for the anti-Christ and the false Prophet, that they shall forever burn (ie be purified), and the smoke there of shall rise up, (and I think be seen), thus seems there is a reminder of them....just off the cuff, having not done a deep enough study; and doesn't apply to me)

As far as their spirit
These Never received a "quickened" Born Again forever living spirit.

Their spirit remained "natural" and dies with the natural body.

OT men called the "soul" ...spirit.
OT men called the "body"...man.
OT men called the "man"...soul

OT and NT makes it clear...
man has a natural Body, that is corrupt
....Its life is Blood, and It shall die.
....It can be crucified, washed, sanctified
....Kept with Christ, redeemed & glorifed unto
....eternal life with the Lord, with occupancy
....on a renewed earth.

Man has a Living soul, that is in every living body, (even animals), imparted via Gods breath of life and departs a dying body.

Perhaps, they understood His Breath, AS Spirit. ??

A saved soul, is a soul God has RESTORED, ie Saved from Separation from God.

Man has a Natural spirit, which is simply the mans truth thoughts in his heart.
(And WHY, when a mans confession of belief in God, it is a confession from his hearts thoughts)

Man CAN have a NEW HEART, and a NEW TRUTH...via receiving a BORN AGAIN SPIRIT, via the SEED of God.
The New Truth, is via the Spirit of Truth, ie the Word of God, written in their hearts.
The SEED of God is Christ.
The POWER of God is Christ.

Spirits Never Die, thus a man WHO HAS received a born again Spirit, is a man who shall have eternal life.

God Bless,
Taken

Taken · Mar 2, 2018

APAK said:
Brethen (Brakelite and Taken):

I've been reading your difficult subject concerning the composition of a human being here on earth and beyond. I just want to clear up some jargon or names for where a 'person' goes...when they DIE (1st death or separation) they do not go to HELL....

OT Sheol = NT Hades (initially located with paradise or Abraham's bosom) then later paradise separated within the boundaries of heaven for saved folks)
Hell = Lake of Fire = Gehenna = Tartarus = Outer Darkness = 2nd Death or separation = FINAL place or state for fallen and unsaved spirits

Am I correct?

Bless you,

APAK

I will agree, historical men used several names for a VERY unpleasant Place for people in the "afterlife".

Just as we have never SEEN, nor did they.

Gehenna from the Hebrews;
A valley of Jerusalem where kings sacrificed their children in fire...
A similitude of the torment of men separated from God.

Tartarus from Greek Mythology
An abyss of the wayward and "divine" Titans.

Sheol, Hebrew, an underworld of the dead.

Hades, Greek translation of Sheol.

I am comfortable using the word Hell, as a place for Unsaved living souls, awaiting Judgement. AND a few fallen celestial spirits, who mated with humans.

1st death, IMO is unsaved body's physical death, and unsaved souls, separated from God.
(Revised - ALL bodies shall die. Ie become void of their life, ie their blood),

2nd death, IMO is the Lake of Fire, where Hell and Death comes to an end, ie purified and destroyed.
(Revised - "death" being ALL that had a choice and chose to Stand against (ie be separated from) God.
Slightly different for "spirits".
"Celestial spirits" never die, and thus are forever in fire and separated from God.

God Bless,
Taken

Webers_Home · Mar 2, 2018

Taken said:
You mention "consciousness"

I wasn't talking about Freudian consciousness.

God created two basic forms of life in the book of Genesis: conscious life and non
conscious life-- blue herons and snapping turtles are examples of the conscious kind;
saguaro cacti and roses are examples of the non conscious kind.

/

Taken · Mar 3, 2018

Webers_Home said:
I wasn't talking about Freudian consciousness.

God created two basic forms of life in the book of Genesis: conscious life and non
conscious life-- blue herons and snapping turtles are examples of the conscious kind;
saguaro cacti and roses are examples of the non conscious kind.

/

I wasn't talking about Freudian concepts.

Men and Animals have Gods breath of life, which I believe has to do with a soul.

Plants do not have Gods breath of life, nor souls.

God Bless,
Taken

Taken · Mar 3, 2018

brakelite said:
The whole man, Adam, sinned. Therefore the sentence and promise of death comes upon the whole person. Not just the body. What God created: dust + breath of life (spirit) =soul; sinned, therefore the whole man died.

This is a deeper study, that to begin to comprehend the knowledge requires to go STEP by STEP of what was and what occurred., by whom and to whom.

In brief DEATH is a curious thing.
To the natural PHYSICAL MAN, death is the perishing of the natural PHYSICAL man's body.

TO the Lord, death is Spriitual, because He is Spirit. AND death to the Lord, is Natural, because the Lord created the Natural.
And a Spiritual death, does not necessarily mean ALSO a Natural physical death.

God said to eat of the Tree of K of good and evil, would be a death unto the man.

Physical death? No. God was speaking of a BOTH a Spiritual death and a Physical separation from God, in which the Phisical man would continue to live, but be separated from God; and BECAUSE of the Spiritual death; the man's "WOULD" also experience a Physical death.

Satan KNEW that...BUT Adam didn't.
The oldest TRICKERY, is full well knowing the WHOLE truth, pertaining to a particular topic, but TRICK someone, by ONLY revealing a HALF TRUTH, with the Express INTENT to TRICK them, into making a DECISION based on a half truth, THAT will cause them HARM.

Satan said; thou surely shalt NOT DIE, if they were to eat of the Tree of K of good and evil.
THAT was a half truth, INTENDED to trick with HARM to their soul.

Now also curious to Gods mystery; is God provides a WAY, for the man's flesh body to be forgiven; the man's soul to be forgiven; and the man to receive a forever living spirit.

We find in Genesis; God had just begun teaching Adam, and Adam SAW his physical body. He had not yet learned...about his soul, his spirit, about forgiveness, or about sin, being the calling of the act, against God.

Adam was comparable to the "babe", a young child who has not yet been taught of things necessary to KNOW about being Against God, Forgiveness is necessary, reconciliation is necessary, God can and does restore and convert a man.

So while Adam did not reach out and take from the Tree of Life...
He was forgiven and restored and converted; just as a baby or small child IS, who has not yet learned to ASK.

Adam was NOT relieved of His natural physical death sentence. Not effected THAT day, but rather many years later.

Adam's Body and Soul however was forgiven and his spirit quickened....

This we know; BY acts of God.

We are revealed what acts God did;
It was Adams flesh body that defied God,
And God shed blood, (of an animal),
And God covered Adams shame, ie his flesh.

We learn later this was the foreshadowing of
Animal blood sacrifice of Jesus' Blood
And
Covering of the flesh body of shame, is the foreshadowing of shame/sin/darkness, being covered with Gods Light, is his Holy Spirit within a man.

And we learn later;
1) IF a person is too young/ incapable of understanding; he is forgiven without asking.
And
2) IF a person is mentally aware of forgiveness and asking; and does; he also is forgiven and converted.

Regarding Adam, after leaving the Garden we have but a few clues to KNOW, he was "restored" and "reconciled" and "converted";
In addition to God shedding an animals blood and covering Adams shame with "clothing".

1) the reference of the number of years Adam lived. 930 years
...and the knowledge revealed OT men living a LONG physical life was a blessing from the Lord.

2) the reference of the birth of Adams son, Seth, viewed unto Eve as a gift from the LORD. (Whom remember, God named the male and female ... ADAM, thus what Eve believe, so also did the male, Adam)

And the reference for that is; When Eve was "tricked" into taking the forbidden fruit and eating, seeing it good for food; Adam also joined in with her and took from Eve and ate.

THAT reveals Gods intent for husband and wife to HAVE the same beliefs...but they did not figure out until, AFTER leaving the Garden, THE SAME BELIEFS, God desires for man and wife, is to BE WITH the Lord, NOT Against the Lord. (Mankinds learning curve!!)

And in many examples in Scripture we find men WHO learned from Adam's experience, and particularly selected "spouses", with the same beliefs IN GOD....and some who didn't and their own consequences that befell them....and the same occurs today.

3) the reference of Adam being called a "son of God", which is a specific term, given to men, having received forgiveness, a restored soul, and quickened spriit.

4) NO man shall enter the Kingdom of God, without having been BORN naturally (of a mans seed) AND spiritually BORN AGAIN (of Gods SEED).

Yet we KNOW, a title of "saint" is what a man who IS accomplished, being a "son of God", is called...ie "saint".

And we KNOW, many men in the OT were referenced as "saints"; which means they "were" accomplished in becoming "sons of God", that requires they be accomplished IN having received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It doesn't matter IF THEY KNEW, the terms; that were later revealed;
What matters IS they satisfied God, that He would be forever WITH them and God Himself accomplished WITHIN those men, what was necessary for THEM to have their forever life and Place in His Kingdom, and He as their God, and they as His sons.

God Bless,
Taken

Webers_Home · Mar 3, 2018

-

Taken said:
Men and Animals have Gods breath of life, which I believe has to do with a
soul.

According to Gen 2:7, humans are souls rather than having souls. In other
words: souls are beings; and humans were not the first.

The Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh (neh'-fesh).

It shows up first in Gen 1:20-21 as sea creatures and winged creatures.

Next it shows up in Gen 1:24 as terra creatures; viz: cattle, creepy crawlies,
and wild beasts.

It shows up again in Gen 2:7 as the human creature.

It shows up again in Gen 2:19-20 as the creatures to whom Adam gave
names.

It shows up again in Gen 9:8-16 as all conscious life aboard the ark,
including Noah and his family.

Some say that animals are people too. Well . . they're certainly not human,
but according to the Bible, they're beings just the same. So I guess we could
consent, at least to some degree, that critters are people too; in their own
way.

Although Adam was created a being from the dust of the earth, he didn't
become a living being until God gave him consciousness; i.e. the bodies of
man and beast are natural, but their consciousness isn't natural, it's
supernatural; which is primarily why mad labs will never be able to create
life when all they have to work with are the elements on the periodic table.

/

Webers_Home · Mar 3, 2018

-
I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow
Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may
already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he
wasn't a Christian.

In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to
speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his
widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the
day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's
acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to
something on the afterlife related to Christ's crucifixion. Well . . that day
they did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual
sappy, feel-good platitudes to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.

● Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart
of fools is in the house of mirth.

Some may feel that hell isn't an appropriate topic at a funeral. But I think
that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring it
up, especially since Christ said that the majority ends up there.

● Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house
of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this
seriously.

As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's
funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a
position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in hell would certainly no
longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's
disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the
National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.

NOTE: Portions of the book of Ecclesiastes are often quoted as proof texts
that there is no conscious existence in the afterlife. But it's far better to
listen to Christ's teachings about the afterlife than Solomon's because
Solomon's knowledge was incomplete; whereas Christ's knowledge is
unlimited. (Luke 11:31, John 1:1-3, John 3:31-34, Col 2:3 and Col 2:9)

/

Hell . . . The Bad News.

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Well-Known Member

Groper

Groper

Groper

Groper

brakelite

Guest

Groper

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Groper

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads