Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

Jay Ross · Mar 21, 2018

n2thelight said:
Nope ,that's not right either as his(satans)angels will die at the return of Christ,nobody will be influenced until he is released

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

The 7000 are his(satans) angels that fought with Michael and his angels

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

At the end of the Millennium,those that didn't overcome will have a choice to make,satan or God

Those who didn't overcome are called the dead

I am sorry, Revelation 11:13 should be understood in a very different manner as there were no earthquakes mentioned in this verse. The verse should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Revelation 11:13: - In the same hour there was great turmoil, {i.e. fighting}, and a tenth of the city fell. In the turmoil, understand seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Now Revelation 11, deals mainly with the events that occur after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and Satan and the Beasts, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts rise up out of the abyss during the little while at the end of the Millennium Age.

Revelation 12 spans a much greater period of time, from the birth of Christ up and until the end of the Millennium Age.

It seems to me that your expectation is that Christ is returning in our near future, but scripture from my understanding would suggest that Christs second coming is not until the end of the Millennium Age.

Shalom

pia · Mar 21, 2018

Jay Ross said:
ByGrace, both the Parable of the Mina and the Talents speak of Satan giving his good and faithful servants money

Hello jay....How do you get that out of the parable ? Not once have I come across this line of thinking in regard to this....Can you tell me how you arrived at this please ?

Stranger · Mar 21, 2018

Jay Ross said:
There are two parable, one in Luke 19 and the other in Matthew 25 which tells us this.

You are in great error here. You have identified the Kingdom of God, of Heaven, with satans kingdom. (Luke 19:11) "...because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear." (Matt. 25:14) "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,...." And the King of this Kingdom cast the unprofitable servants into outer darkness. (Matt. 25:29) "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The parables in (Matt. 25) are the product of the disciples questions in (Matt. 24:3) "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of they coming, and of the end of the world."

These parables deal with the characterization of the Kingdom while the King is away. They deal with the interim time of the Kingdom. Between Christ's ascension and His Second Coming. They deal with the faithfulness of His servants with that which He has given them. Not to satans servants.

Stranger

Jay Ross · Mar 21, 2018

Stranger said:
You are in great error here.

Really, are you sure of your facts with respect to these two parables?

Stranger said:
You have identified the Kingdom of God, of Heaven, with Satan's kingdom.

Where did I do that in my post above?

Stranger said:
(Luke 19:11) "...because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear."

That was the crowd's expectation as they surged towards Jerusalem before the start of the Sabbath day.

Stranger said:
(Matt. 25:14) "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,...."

The opening words of "the kingdom of heaven is" is missing from the Greek text.

Stranger said:
And the King of this Kingdom cast the unprofitable servants into outer darkness.

(Matt. 25:29) "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This statement by Satan in this parable is true, that in the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The wicked servant was unprofitable to Satan in that he was not prepared to oppress the people around him as was Satan's expectation of him. Also Satan agreed with the wicked servant that he, Satan, was not entitled to the increase of the harvest as he did not tend water or plant the fields which he was wanting to be harvested for his own gain.

Stranger said:
The parables in (Matt. 25) are the product of the disciples questions in (Matt. 24:3) "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of they coming, and of the end of the world."

These parables deal with the characterization of the Kingdom while the King is away. They deal with the interim time of the Kingdom. Between Christ's ascension and His Second Coming. They deal with the faithfulness of His servants with that which He has given them. Not to satans servants.

Stranger

Again, the questions that needs to be answered are: -

When does God establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth?

What is Satan's role after the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom of God?

What is Christ's role after the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom of God?

It seems to me that you are expressing the classical traditional understanding of the parables of the Mina and the Talents, but Sadly, your expressed classical traditional understanding of these two parables is very much in error.

In both instances of the telling these two parables, Jesus is describing one particular aspect of what will be happening during the first 1,000 years of the established Everlasting Kingdom of God and that when he is released from the Bottomless Pit, that he will go after the Saints, because they did not nor do not want Satan to be their God over them, and have them brought before him and to then be killed in front of him. Luke 19. That portion of the Parable of the Mina, does not reflect the heart attitude of either God or Jesus, but it certainly does reflect the heart attitude of Satan.

I rest my case.

Shalom

Davy · Mar 22, 2018

Jay Ross said:
I am sorry, Revelation 11:13 should be understood in a very different manner as there were no earthquakes mentioned in this verse. The verse should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Revelation 11:13: - In the same hour there was great turmoil, {i.e. fighting}, and a tenth of the city fell. In the turmoil, understand seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

You Are Terribly Wrong!

The Greek word for "earthquake" in Rev.11:13 is seismos (4579), meaning literally a tremor, an earthquake.

Now Revelation 11, deals mainly with the events that occur after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and Satan and the Beasts, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts rise up out of the abyss during the little while at the end of the Millennium Age.

Wrong again!

Revelation 11 is about events to occur in the last days just prior to Christ's return on the 6th trumpet, and then Jesus' return on the 7th trumpet. It has nothing to do with Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Revelation 12 spans a much greater period of time, from the birth of Christ up and until the end of the Millennium Age.

It seems to me that your expectation is that Christ is returning in our near future, but scripture from my understanding would suggest that Christs second coming is not until the end of the Millennium Age.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a short summary of events from Genesis up to Christ's future Milennium reign, but not the end of the Milennium. The rest of Rev.12 is about events to occur just prior to Christ's 2nd coming and prior to the start of the Milennium. Rev.12:7-17 is about Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly down to this earth for the coming tribulation event, and then persecuting Christ's Church during the tribulation.

Stranger · Mar 22, 2018

Jay Ross said:
Really, are you sure of your facts with respect to these two parables?

Where did I do that in my post above?

That was the crowd's expectation as they surged towards Jerusalem before the start of the Sabbath day.

The opening words of "the kingdom of heaven is" is missing from the Greek text.

This statement by Satan in this parable is true, that in the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The wicked servant was unprofitable to Satan in that he was not prepared to oppress the people around him as was Satan's expectation of him. Also Satan agreed with the wicked servant that he, Satan, was not entitled to the increase of the harvest as he did not tend water or plant the fields which he was wanting to be harvested for his own gain.

satan's role is not addressed in these parables. his role is addressed elsewhere.

Again, the questions that needs to be answered are: -

When does God establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth?

What is Satan's role after the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom of God?

What is Christ's role after the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom of God?

It seems to me that you are expressing the classical traditional understanding of the parables of the Mina and the Talents, but Sadly, your expressed classical traditional understanding of these two parables is very much in error.

In both instances of the telling these two parables, Jesus is describing one particular aspect of what will be happening during the first 1,000 years of the established Everlasting Kingdom of God and that when he is released from the Bottomless Pit, that he will go after the Saints, because they did not nor do not want Satan to be their God over them, and have them brought before him and to then be killed in front of him. Luke 19. That portion of the Parable of the Mina, does not reflect the heart attitude of either God or Jesus, but it certainly does reflect the heart attitude of Satan.

I rest my case.

Shalom

Yes, really. You error greatly in identifying the Kingdom of God with satans kingdom. You do so in your posts #116 and 117. You state that the parables in (Matt. 25) and (Luke 19) pertain to satan's kingdom. They do not. They pertain to the Kingdom of God. The one going on the journey is Jesus Christ, not satan. The one giving the talents to His servants and the responsibility to 'occupy until I come', (Luke 19:13), is Jesus Christ, not satan.

The phrase 'Kingdom of Heaven' is not missing from (Matt. 25:1), "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,...." And it is this Kingdom which (Matt. 25:14) is speaking to. (Matt. 25:13) speaks to the Second Coming of Christ, of which pertains to the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. And of that Second Coming (Matt. 25:14) says, "For as a man travelling into a far country". The translators rightly added 'the Kingdom of Heaven' as that is the continuing subject. So, again, you are in great error in identifying this Kingdom with the kingdom of satan.

satan has no authority to thrust anyone into outer darkness. he has no authority to judge anyone, much less to act on that judgement. he has authority to deceive and make war against the saints of God. That is all. And right now, you are part of that deception in attributing that which speaks of God to satan.

Stranger

Jay Ross · Mar 22, 2018

Davy said:
You Are Terribly Wrong!

The Greek word for "earthquake" in Rev.11:13 is seismos (4579), meaning literally a tremor, an earthquake.

The Greek Word in Rev 11:13, σεισμὸς, seismos, has the embedded Greek Root word G:4578 in it. See Revelation 11:13 Interlinear: and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men -- seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

The Greek root is better understood if we consider that it has the meaning of turmoil.

Davy said:

Wrong again!

Click to expand...

Davy said:
Revelation 11 is about events to occur in the last days just prior to Christ's return on the 6th trumpet, and then Jesus' return on the 7th trumpet. It has nothing to do with Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Really David, it all depends on when we expect Christ's second advent to occur. You are correct if Christ's second advent is at the very end of the Millennium Age.

Davy said:
Revelation 12:1-5 is a short summary of events from Genesis up to Christ's future Millennium reign, but not the end of the Millennium. The rest of Rev.12 is about events to occur just prior to Christ's 2nd coming and prior to the start of the Millennium. Rev.12:7-17 is about Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly down to this earth for the coming tribulation event, and then persecuting Christ's Church during the tribulation.

David you surprise me, your understanding here is correct. But remember we are also told that the moment Satan is thrown down to the earth that he will be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years, he and his fellow wicked fallen heavenly hosts who are the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 But you then confuse the situation with your poor understanding of when the events are to take place.

Oh well we all do not get it right all of the time do we.

Shalom

Jay Ross · Mar 22, 2018

Stranger said:
Yes, really. You error greatly in identifying the Kingdom of God with satans kingdom. You do so in your posts #116 and 117. You state that the parables in (Matt. 25) and (Luke 19) pertain to satan's kingdom. They do not. They pertain to the Kingdom of God. The one going on the journey is Jesus Christ, not satan. The one giving the talents to His servants and the responsibility to 'occupy until I come', (Luke 19:13), is Jesus Christ, not satan.

The phrase 'Kingdom of Heaven' is not missing from (Matt. 25:1), "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,...." And it is this Kingdom which (Matt. 25:14) is speaking to. (Matt. 25:13) speaks to the Second Coming of Christ, of which pertains to the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. And of that Second Coming (Matt. 25:14) says, "For as a man travelling into a far country". The translators rightly added 'the Kingdom of Heaven' as that is the continuing subject. So, again, you are in great error in identifying this Kingdom with the kingdom of satan.

satan has no authority to thrust anyone into outer darkness. he has no authority to judge anyone, much less to act on that judgement. he has authority to deceive and make war against the saints of God. That is all. And right now, you are part of that deception in attributing that which speaks of God to satan.

Stranger

Stranger, you are welcome to believe what you like but for you to say that I am in error because I have correctly identified that the parable of the Minas and the Talents are both about Satan and his empowering of his servants while he is locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

When Satan is locked up Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that all the people of the earth should worship Him, Daniel 7:13-14. Christ did not have to go away to receive a kingdom and dominion over the peoples of the earth at the beginning of the Millennium Age.

I would humbly suggest that you should take time out to more closely study these two parable to verify the facts as to whether or not your understanding of the parables is correct.

Shalom

Davy · Mar 22, 2018

Jay Ross said:
The Greek Word in Rev 11:13, σεισμὸς, seismos, has the embedded Greek Root word G:4578 in it. See Revelation 11:13 Interlinear: and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men -- seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

The Greek root is better understood if we consider that it has the meaning of turmoil.

Our English word seismic comes from that Greek word seismos. Ever heard of seismic activity? It's about earthquakes and tremors. Your attempt to redefine the meaning of the word will not work. It's an earthquake event in Rev.11:13, not a street riot.

Really David, it all depends on when we expect Christ's second advent to occur. You are correct if Christ's second advent is at the very end of the Millennium Age.

No, you are the one who is incorrect away from Holy Writ, because God's Word teaches Jesus' 2nd coming is PRIOR to His thousand years reign of Rev.20. Amillennialism is a doctrine of man, and that's the idea you're pushing; the Amillennialist doctrine began later and was not taught by the early Apostles and 1st century Church fathers.

David you surprise me, your understanding here is correct. But remember we are also told that the moment Satan is thrown down to the earth that he will be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years, he and his fellow wicked fallen heavenly hosts who are the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 But you then confuse the situation with your poor understanding of when the events are to take place.

Oh well we all do not get it right all of the time do we.

When Jesus returns at the very end of this present world to end the coming great tribulation, that is when Satan will be locked in his prison pit for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. The timing of the events of Rev.20 is unmistakeable, and to believe in a 2nd coming after the thousand years one must deny much of God's Word as written.

Stranger · Mar 22, 2018

Jay Ross said:
Stranger, you are welcome to believe what you like but for you to say that I am in error because I have correctly identified that the parable of the Minas and the Talents are both about Satan and his empowering of his servants while he is locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

When Satan is locked up Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that all the people of the earth should worship Him, Daniel 7:13-14. Christ did not have to go away to receive a kingdom and dominion over the peoples of the earth at the beginning of the Millennium Age.

I would humbly suggest that you should take time out to more closely study these two parable to verify the facts as to whether or not your understanding of the parables is correct.

Shalom

Your first sentence is an unfinished sentence. Please complete it.

satan is not sent to the bottomless pit until the end of the Tribulation. The parable of the talents and the long journey speak to the time when Christ leaves this earth, (Acts 1:9) to when He returns at His Second Coming. And then satan is cast into the pit for a thousand years.

The parable of the talents and the long journey are about Jesus Christ, not satan.

Stranger

Jay Ross · Mar 22, 2018

Davy said:
Our English word seismic comes from that Greek word seismos. Ever heard of seismic activity? It's about earthquakes and tremors. Your attempt to redefine the meaning of the word will not work. It's an earthquake event in Rev.11:13, not a street riot.

No, you are the one who is incorrect away from Holy Writ, because God's Word teaches Jesus' 2nd coming is PRIOR to His thousand years reign of Rev.20. Amillennialism is a doctrine of man, and that's the idea you're pushing; the Amillennialist doctrine began later and was not taught by the early Apostles and 1st century Church fathers.

When Jesus returns at the very end of this present world to end the coming great tribulation, that is when Satan will be locked in his prison pit for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. The timing of the events of Rev.20 is unmistakeable, and to believe in a 2nd coming after the thousand years one must deny much of God's Word as written.

David, I can only present what I know is the truth for me personally.

If you want to disagree with what I have written, then that is your choice and prerogative.

My understanding is that the Armageddon gathering of the kings of the earth is in the next 20-30 years. As per Isaiah 24:21-22 the wicked fallen heavenly hosts will also be judged at that time.

In Luke 14:31-32, Jesus tells us that He will be seen during the time of the judgement of the Kings of the earth on the earth dealing with the kings of the earth, i.e. judging them and in Romans 11:25-27 Paul tells us that during the Armageddon gathering of the "heathen" kings of the earth at the end of the 2,300 years of the Heathen Kings of the earth trampling the Sanctuary of God that Israel will seek God's terms of peace and will that God will renew His covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His Possession among the people of the earth.

Christ is seen many times, but His final coming will be like the manner in which He left when He comes on the Clouds.

Your understanding IMHO leaves a lot to be desired.

Shalom

Jay Ross · Mar 22, 2018

Stranger said:
Your first sentence is an unfinished sentence. Please complete it.

satan is not sent to the bottomless pit until the end of the Tribulation. The parable of the talents and the long journey speak to the time when Christ leaves this earth, (Acts 1:9) to when He returns at His Second Coming. And then satan is cast into the pit for a thousand years.

The parable of the talents and the long journey are about Jesus Christ, not satan.

Stranger

I am sorry that I did not add to my first sentence that you had erred in your understanding. That was a given.

But like Davy above you are welcome to believe what you like but for me the Classical traditional understanding is very wrong and Satan is having a laugh at your expense, in that you now have Christ kill all those who will not worship Him when he returns. Sadly that is not what the Book of Revelations tell us.

Just like Davy, your understanding of the end time events is wrong as well.

You do not know what is God's truth IMHO.

You can say I am wrong but you do so out of your own ignorance.

Shalom

Stranger · Mar 22, 2018

Jay Ross said:
I am sorry that I did not add to my first sentence that you had erred in your understanding. That was a given.

But like Davy above you are welcome to believe what you like but for me the Classical traditional understanding is very wrong and Satan is having a laugh at your expense, in that you now have Christ kill all those who will not worship Him when he returns. Sadly that is not what the Book of Revelations tell us.

Just like Davy, your understanding of the end time events is wrong as well.

You do not know what is God's truth IMHO.

You can say I am wrong but you do so out of your own ignorance.

Shalom

There was no given. You just didn't complete the sentence.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to believe the Scriptures. Christ will destroy all those who are opposed to Him and God when He returns. He will be covered with blood again, but this time it won't be His. It will be those of His enemies.

You are wrong.

Stranger

Jay Ross · Mar 22, 2018

Stranger said:
There was no given. You just didn't complete the sentence.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to believe the Scriptures. Christ will destroy all those who are opposed to Him and God when He returns. He will be covered with blood again, but this time it won't be His. It will be those of His enemies.

You are wrong.

Stranger

So be it.

Davy · Apr 6, 2018

Jay Ross said:
....
My understanding is that the Armageddon gathering of the kings of the earth is in the next 20-30 years. As per Isaiah 24:21-22 the wicked fallen heavenly hosts will also be judged at that time.

The timing of those Isaiah 24:21-22 verses is on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming, which is the "day of the Lord", and coincides with Satan also being cast into that pit and locked up for the 1,000 years of Rev.20 which begins after... the battle of Armageddon. Their being visited after "many days" is about their being kept in that pit prison for the 1,000 years while Jesus reigns with His elect over the nations, on earth, and then at the end of that period those kings are judged.

In Luke 14:31-32, Jesus tells us that He will be seen during the time of the judgement of the Kings of the earth on the earth dealing with the kings of the earth, i.e. judging them and in Romans 11:25-27 Paul tells us that during the Armageddon gathering of the "heathen" kings of the earth at the end of the 2,300 years of the Heathen Kings of the earth trampling the Sanctuary of God that Israel will seek God's terms of peace and will that God will renew His covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His Possession among the people of the earth.

Christ is seen many times, but His final coming will be like the manner in which He left when He comes on the Clouds.

Your understanding IMHO leaves a lot to be desired.

Shalom

Luke 14:31-32 has NOTHING to do with the judgement of the kings of the earth. It is only an example Jesus gives of how a wise king considers whether to make war or peace.

Luke 14:31-32
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
KJV

Did you really think I wouldn't take the time to look up Scripture references folks give here on the forum? All you've done by quoting that Luke 14:31-32 reference is in trying to use it as fodder for your broken canon. It has nothing to do with your subject.

Likewise with your quoting Romans 11:25-27, it has NOTHING to do with the subject of the kings that Jesus gathers on the 7th vial for the battle of Armageddon.

Rom 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
KJV

What that Romans 11 section is about, is how God spiritually blinded part of Israel (i.e., the Jews), so that The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. And then how when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in", then God will remove their blindness, and forgive their sins against Him and His Son. Nothing... about the kings of Rev.16 there at all.

Davy · Apr 6, 2018

Jay Ross said:
I am sorry that I did not add to my first sentence that you had erred in your understanding. That was a given.

But like Davy above you are welcome to believe what you like but for me the Classical traditional understanding is very wrong and Satan is having a laugh at your expense, in that you now have Christ kill all those who will not worship Him when he returns. Sadly that is not what the Book of Revelations tell us.

Just like Davy, your understanding of the end time events is wrong as well.

You do not know what is God's truth IMHO.

You can say I am wrong but you do so out of your own ignorance.

Shalom

That's really a useless... rant. It shows you're losing... it.

Jay Ross · Apr 6, 2018

Davy said:
That's really a useless... rant. It shows you're losing... it.

Really Davy, your wisdom passes all knowledge and understanding. I do not think so as you have demonstrated above with your comments on what I had previously posted.

As for stating that I am having a useless rant, then .... what was the purpose of your post above and below? To have a rant? Oh dear, what a tangled web we spin.

Davy · Apr 6, 2018

Jay Ross said:
Really Davy, your wisdom passes all knowledge and understanding. I do not think so as you have demonstrated above.

Another useless rant. Weak minded people usually resort to character assassination techniques when they've lost an argument. It's impossible for them to stay on topic after they've lost it, and they can't think of anything else to say.

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Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

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