Convince the Atheist Part 1: Jesus

Personally, I don't think Christians have either the responsibility or the capability to convince anyone of the authenticity of Christ. It is the duty of Christians simply to spread the message so that all are aware of it, but it is God's work to do the convincing.You seem to be already familiar with the Gospel so I'll say no more, friend, than to wish you a fruitful journey

Are you saying it COULD not happen or that it DID not happen? Scientifically a miracle does not need to be explained. It needs to be verified as actually having occured. The Bible verifies those miracles. Donnie

DOV, Hi , I was reading what you wrote and I was wondering if you have ever read the Bible? See the thing is , the bible is the evidence that Jesus was real. You absolutely cannot take what some one says about the bible, you have to seek out the word on your own. Its so easy for people to bash christianity and say Jesus wasnt real, But its those very same people that havent actually looked into it to see for themselves if there is something to it. Its your God given right to believe or not believe. You should atleast see if you like what it says. Not in pieces but in whole. The Gospel is a good place to start but what does examined mean ? Looked over? You can also pray: God ,if Jesus is real show me.. Rest assured if you pray that prayer And seek it out in the word God will show you. Be ready forwhat he shows you. Its about your heart .Is it opened or closed?

D of V wroteconvince meNo point you have a closed mind

(The Duke of Vandals;38357)
Perhaps I didn't state my case clearly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Jesus is fictional than Christianity is pointless. If Jesus didn't exist and didn't die for your sins than what use is his message? The golden rule existed long before Jesus stated it. I have examined the evidence including the gospels and remain unconvinced that the gospel Jesus existed. Convince me.
We can't convince you at all... man is man, and man is flawed. and when man is flawed, they will listen to their flawed ideas.Jag

(thesuperjag;38364)
We can't convince you at all... man is man, and man is flawed. and when man is flawed, they will listen to their flawed ideas.Jag
Absolutely to the point! And could well add to the end of this: "...and believe them".

(kalixx;38369)
(thesuperjag;38364)
We can't convince you at all... man is man, and man is flawed. and when man is flawed, they will listen to their flawed ideas.Jag
Absolutely to the point! And could well add to the end of this: "...and believe them".I'm confused, may I ask you why do you call yourself an Ex-Christian? Because I remember you said that...To follow Christ is to be with Him and lean onto the Truth...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world...

(The Duke of Vandals;38357)
Perhaps I didn't state my case clearly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Jesus is fictional than Christianity is pointless. If Jesus didn't exist and didn't die for your sins than what use is his message? The golden rule existed long before Jesus stated it. I have examined the evidence including the gospels and remain unconvinced that the gospel Jesus existed. Convince me.
You are, of course, DoV, absolutely right in what you say - even the bible itself agrees with you:"...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." 1 Cor 15:17-19All that would be left of the Bible would be yet another text book on how to live a good life.But Jesus cannot be proved, nor can his miracles. Maybe it is just as the BIble also tells us - a question of belief, as the writer of Hebrews states:"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Heb 11:1-2As I see it, this leaves us with two alternative conclusions:either 1) The Bible is a lie, but we cannot prove it is.or 2) The Bible is true but God is only going to let you believe it through faith and not fact.Frustrating isn't it?Interesting thing is, though, how many poor carpenters, roaming around the countryside, preaching to poor, illiterate peasants for a period of some 3 years or less, actually inspired a book that remains valid for thousands of years and continues unchallenged as the world's bestseller?Can I ask you two questions:1) why do you want to be convinced?2) why ask people like me? Afterall I own at least 15 Bibles that all say exactly the same thing - how crazy is that?

(thesuperjag;38371)
I'm confused, may I ask you why do you call yourself an Ex-Christian? Because I remember you said that...To follow Christ is to be with Him and lean onto the Truth...
Yes, Jag, you remember correctly. I am not sure the explanation belongs here and I am very wary of disturbing other people's threads but, briefly the "ex-" is not that I have rejected Christianity, but that the Christian God rejects me, at least to date. I hear so many Christians say they have a personal relationship with Jesus and the Bible also promises that. But although I openly ask for one, no, crave for one, would die for one, I am never given one. But whilst my spiritual life is as dry as the desert, I anyway live the Bible, day in, day out. As you say, "To follow Christ is to be with Him".. I agree, and there is no place where I would rather be, but it simply doesn't happen because I don't know where he is. There was a time when I thought I was, but I was mistaken.What keeps me going? People like you, Jag......

(kalixx;38375)
(The Duke of Vandals;38357)
Perhaps I didn't state my case clearly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Jesus is fictional than Christianity is pointless. If Jesus didn't exist and didn't die for your sins than what use is his message? The golden rule existed long before Jesus stated it. I have examined the evidence including the gospels and remain unconvinced that the gospel Jesus existed. Convince me.
You are, of course, DoV, absolutely right in what you say - even the bible itself agrees with you:"...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." 1 Cor 15:17-19All that would be left of the Bible would be yet another text book on how to live a good life.But Jesus cannot be proved, nor can his miracles. Maybe it is just as the BIble also tells us - a question of belief, as the writer of Hebrews states:"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Heb 11:1-2As I see it, this leaves us with two alternative conclusions:either 1) The Bible is a lie, but we cannot prove it is.or 2) The Bible is true but God is only going to let you believe it through faith and not fact.Frustrating isn't it?Interesting thing is, though, how many poor carpenters, roaming around the countryside, preaching to poor, illiterate peasants for a period of some 3 years or less, actually inspired a book that remains valid for thousands of years and continues unchallenged as the world's bestseller?Can I ask you two questions:1) why do you want to be convinced?2) why ask people like me? Afterall I own at least 15 Bibles that all say exactly the same thing - how crazy is that? *sigh* Why do people think they say the same thing? They clearly don't say the same thing to tell you the truth.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

Kalixxyou say you were a christian and I can believe that. God hasn't rejected you but the other way around. if you want a relationship with God you have to get together with some Christians and get into fellowship with them.The Bible says As he is so are we in this worldit also says Christ in us the hope of glory ( thats how we go the name Christian )God dwells in the Churchwhen two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst.The First place your gonna see God is in the hearts and minds of other Christians.But if you want that relationship which your seeking you need to Humble yourself and do a bit of repenting.

(thesuperjag;38384)
*sigh* Why do people think they say the same thing? They clearly don't say the same thing to tell you the truth.Jag
OK, you win They don't all say exactly the same, ....but actually many of mine do say the same because they are all KJV bibles. I tend to collect bibles, some are study versions, some are big, some are pocket, some are very old, some are new. They divide naturally into English language mainly KJV's and the rest are another language as I live in a non-English speaking country.But, I agree with you, there are differences (and the differences are sometimes even greater in other languages), although I think the core important message of Jesus Christ is the same....or?????

(Beano;38399)
Kalixxyou say you were a christian and I can believe that. God hasn't rejected you but the other way around. if you want a relationship with God you have to get together with some Christians and get into fellowship with them.
I left a highly-paid job in telecommunications to take a very low-paid job working for the church. Whenever there are baptisms, weddings, funerals, church sevices, I am always there. I belong to the working committee of a Christian fellowship group that arranges weekly meetings, talks, prayer services, retreats, etc. I prepared and ran a successful bible group for quite many years. We have a prayer group that meets in our home. I live amongst Christians all the time - it doesn't give me a relationship with Jesus.
The Bible says As he is so are we in this worldit also says Christ in us the hope of glory ( thats how we go the name Christian )God dwells in the Churchwhen two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst.
Absolutely. This is what I said, the Bible promises, but I never received and am now too exhausted to continue yearning. I have accepted that I am outside these promises for some reason - it no longer troubles me so much.
The First place your gonna see God is in the hearts and minds of other Christians.
I agree. That is also perhaps the main reason why I am here. It encourages me to believe that Christianity is worth fighting for even if I don't have it personally - and that the Bible teachings are the only way to gain a rewarding life.
But if you want that relationship which your seeking you need to Humble yourself and do a bit of repenting.
I guess we could all do with concentrating more on these essentials. They do tend to get easily overlooked. However, my wife and I pray (or rather she does) together every night and morning including these things. But I guess real humility and repentence is a very individual thing, adn I am sure you are right that I am less successful than most others! Thanks for your advice and concerns, friend But, hey, I don't want to talk about me on someone else's thread so I'll quit this bit before I get told off!

There can be no convincing. Accepting Jesus Christ is a matter of faith. Even if I could convince you that he was indeed God and I think that we could do a credible job, it would prove nothing. Skepticism does not allow anyone who does not want to believe to be convinced. As long as anyone is determined to be a skeptic then he will just nay say for the sake of it. If you have seen then Monty Python skit, the Argument Clinic, it is like that.If you were capable of making the leap of acceptance on an intellectual level, it still does you no good. Many people believe that Jesus existed and are not Christian. Many people who call themselves Christian believe that he was God, but that in itself does not make them Christian. One becomes a Christian through having a personal relationship. One has to desire to be changed before one can change.I was an atheist for thirty years before I came to an intellectual acceptance that maybe I was wrong. Once I was ready to challenge my own presuppositions then things began to happen. I did not become Christian on my own. God began to act in me. He convicted me of his truth in ways that defy description. To the outside observer, my faith would seem to be irrational. Anyone who knew me at that time would never use those words to describe me.The Holy Spirit is what convinces people. He works inside each person. Anyone who cares to discover God finds him in unlikely circumstances and places. Some people look all their lives and never discover him because they are looking for the wrong thing.Jesus Christ was a real person. Even Jews do not deny his existence. They had the most to gain by proving his existence to be a fraud. It would certainly have been worth their while to make the case that you are proposing.Can we prove irrefutably that he really existed? What would you accept? There were no birth records. There were many witnesses, but since you discount his existence then you can discount their existence as easily. The case against Jesus' existence is far less believable than the one for him. If he did not exist then there was a plot that existed for centuries before. Things about his life were written in prophesy by David. Read the 22nd Psalm and you will read a description of a crucifixion. It is written in the first person. David was never crucified. Not even close to it.Jesus is an unlikely hero. He is counter to Jewish tradition. Yet despite his humble origins he is shown to lecture to teachers of Jewish law on the law and to quote from the Bible without the benefit of any formal education. This is just plain illogical in so many ways. If anyone is going to concoct a story and expect it to be believed then he will at least try to make it plausible.The place of Jesus' birth and the circumstances of his birth were prophesied well in advance. The new covenant which Jesus introduced was predicted by Isaiah and other prophets. The Holy Spirit and gifts of the Holy Spirit were mentioned by Amos and other prophets.One could take the position that the writers of the New Testament knew the facts and were trying to write things to fit the prophesies of the past. This of course would assume that they knew the facts in the first place. Nobody had a Bible then. Only certain people would have that knowledge and they would have to have a reason to do it. Since these were Jewish prophesies then it mean that a body of Jews would have to have a strong reason to betray their own religion. This is an interesting theory but it defies logic.The Romans would have had reason to bring Christianity into disrepute as well. Any false stories circulating would certainly be corrected in order to maintain stability and stamp out trouble. Christianity was seen as trouble too because it stirred up the Jews so much. The first copies of Christian letters began to be circulated around 60 A.D. They were translated and copied by hand. They were distributed throughout the Roman empire. If a conspiracy did exist it would have had to start before this time. To suggest that it was none afterwards is impossible since there are copies in existence in more than one form for most letters and the Gospels. At this same time, Jesus is mention twice by name by Josephus in the history book, Antiquities of the Jews. Notice this is Jewish history not Christian. One of these is the Testimonium Flavianum passage in which he confirms several details of his life and death. These details also began to appear separately in the first Gospels and Epistles which were starting to circulate when this was written.He called Jesus a "wise man" and a "doer of wonderful works". He was "a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure." It says that he "drew over to him many Jews and Gentiles". He mentions Pilate and his crucifixion. He mentions that his followers persevered and "are not extinct at this day" (bk XVII, chapter II, section 3). Flavius Josephus was not a Christian but a Pharisee. He also gives an account of the death of James, "the brother of Jesus the So-called Christ".In 112 A.D. Cornelius Tacticus a Roman historian and governor wrote that "Christus, the founder of the name [Christian] was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the region of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only throughout Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (Annals XV 44) as his explanation for the persecution of Christians by Nero. He also confirmed many details given in Acts, Romans and the gospels. Suetonius wrote the Life of Claudius in 125 A.D. and mentions similar details.Pliny the Younger wrote about Christians in 112 A.D. He spoke of them as people who met in secret before the sun came up who pledged themselves to be honest and to do good deeds, praying and singing to Christ as a god. He says in his Epistles X 96 that they refused to bow to the Emperor Trajan or to curse Christ even under extreme torture. He said that Christians loved truth at any cost. Are these the sort of people who would believe or spread lies?Lucian of Samosata wrote that Christians worshiped Jesus, "the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult into the world" in The Passing Peregrinus. This brings us to the writers of the New Testament. Matthew was a tax collector, not a Biblical scholar. He could probably do numbers well, but he would not have had the kind of education necessary to commit the kind of forgery necessary. He lacked a motive since it was in his best interest to continue to please the leaders of the time and not make waves. Mark was a youth who traveled with Silas and Paul. He was not present. Since the other gospels weren't written yet then he would have to have a source for his information. He probably did not have the expertise or knowledge to pull of a scam of this nature. Luke was a doctor. Neither Mark of Luke met Jesus personally. He had the skills, but no motive. He also was a Gentile and therefore had no access to Jewish teaching.John was an Apostle and like Matthew he had direct access to Jesus and was present for the events they describe. He was also the son of a poor man and he did not have the education to pull off an elaborate hoax.Paul wrote nearly half of the New Testament. He had the skills and knowledge to pull off a scam of this sort. However, he was a self-professed persecutor of Christians. He vilifies himself by his own testimony. He was a respected Pharisee trained by the foremost Jewish scholar. He was a man of good character and high standing in the Jewish community. He of all people had no reason to participate in a scam. It was against his best interests, his character, his family, his traditions, in short, it was against all of his training and class.Peter was a simple fisherman. He had no training in the Torah or access to the documents necessary to scam the public. James was the half brother of Jesus. He was a carpenter's son. He had no skills or training. He did have motive to elevate Jesus' name. But if Jesus was a fiction then so was he.So what are we left with. A bunch of nameless people got in a room. They were Biblical scholars and therefore Jews. They invented a person that would attempt to bring down their own religion. They made him humble and insignificant so that nobody would notice their playing with the facts. They made this person travel widely though and be seen by great throngs of people. I will ignore this contradiction. They used the names of well known people of great position and status including King Herod, the various governors of Rome at the time, the chief priests and leaders were all named hoping that none of them would raise an objection. Perhaps they did it long after they were dead, but how did they get hold of Jewish and Roman records?Finally, there is the lack of motive. Why would person let alone a cabal of like minded persons concoct such a fantasy? There was no money to be gained. The people were dirt poor. The Romans were bent on stamping out all religion that competed with them. Persecution and horrible death was the result for thousands of people. This was all done before the Bible was pulled together and Rome converted to Christianity. I have visited the catacombs in Rome. You can see the piles of skulls. There is independent Roman documentation confirming the mass killing of Christians after Rome burnt in 70 A.D. Being a Christian was a bad thing at that time. Before this early Christians were persecuted by their fellow Jews who saw them as apostates. They were driven out of town, stoned and separated from their families, friends and jobs.Then there was the fate of the Apostles. They all died nasty deaths except John. Interestingly this was predicted in the Gospels by Jesus. If Peter existed then he knew that he would die for his beliefs. They all had lots of reason to turn on Jesus. Early Christians had lots of reason to recant.It is easy to look back with 21st century eyes and see things differently. We see a church grown fat and opulent. We see that someone can gain personally through professing to be a Christian. It was only this way in recent times. Being a pastor or priest often meant doing without. It was never seen as a way to advance oneself. There were better ways.At a time when everyone can own a Bible or has the information at his finger tips courtesy of the Internet, we can fall into the trap that it has always been this way. Knowledge was always an elite thing until the invention of the printing press and universal public education. Believing that the Bible is a work of fiction by over one hundred writers written over many hundreds of years all working for the same purpose, to deceive, is hard to get my mind around. They had secret meetings and had large departments cross referencing and cross checking facts. They gathered all documents into one place from all across the known world at the time and destroyed and altered information that could disprove them. They were so thorough that nothing could slip past them, even the Dead Sea scrolls. The fact is that when the Bible was written nobody envisioned it being what it is today. Each person was doing his own thing in isolation. Nobody read what the guy ahead of him wrote. There was no Bible in existence to want to add to it. What tied it all together was the Holy Spirit. He is the unifying thread to scripture.Nobody saw Christianity becoming what it is today. They met in homes and markets. The had no books, no songs, no money. They worked at other jobs and often gave up well paying jobs and possessions. Their future was uncertain at best and bleak at worst.If it was built on lies then it would never have lasted and thrived. People were under tremendous pressure to conform. They bucked the trends of the times and faced persecution and painful death. These things seem obvious to me. People have been trying to prove the Bible wrong for centuries. They said that the Bible's facts were wrong, but in every case it has been proven to be correct and history has confirmed what the Bible has told. From the Tower of Babel and writings about Babylon, everything written in the Bible has proven to be true. People doubted the story of the exodus, saying the Sinai was a desert, but archeologists have confirmed that thousands of years ago the Sinai was not like it is today and people lived in the Sinai. Inscriptions have been found telling of the famine in Egypt and sending emissaries to Joseph (called by name) for food. The Bible is not just a history book. The Bible has much science in it. The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle. It is as accurate as current atomic clocks. Our calendar in comparison has been amended many times. The Jews have used the same calendar for millenia without the aid of telescopes, observatories and astronomers.Voltaire predicted that Christianity would not exist in 100 years time. He too thought that it was based on lies. Yet, today the church is bigger and stronger than ever. It outlasted Communism and will grow in Communist China to the point, when in a few years time, the average Christian will be Chinese. Persecution and accusations of being based on lies have never stuck to Christianity, despite people like Voltaire who heaped scorn on it.People look past everything. They are attracted to the simple truths that lie at the heart of the Bible. They are the same simple truths today as when they were first written almost two thousand years ago.Some people dispute even historical records. Christians take things in total not piecemeal. One may be able to dispute parts if so motivated, but in total it is a very compelling case. If you are really stubborn no amount of evidence will convince you.Like the Dead Sea scrolls much information remains clouded in dust, hidden from the public. One passage in the Dead Sea scrolls written between 200 B.C. and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. talks about the Messiah who was crucified for the sins of all mankind. It says he was the leader of the community who was put to death. This does not appear in the Bible. It is independent. It is also contrary to Jewish tradition which sees the Messiah as a ruler who will rule forever and never die. The passage calls him a "shoot of Jesse", a "branch of David". It uses the curious words "pierced" and "wounded". The Jews were great believers in genealogy. Had the Temple not been sacked and destroyed we would have the kind of evidence that would be irrefutable. Unfortunately we all have to piece things together as best we can.

I am not going to throw scriptures in as your wish,But I am going to tell you this,How do we know anyone that people talk of today when we weren't alive existed? Because of written historical documents,maybe word of mouth,The bible is the oldest and most selling book in the world,it meaning is true,Jesus existed.You need to look more closey into this,scientists actually state historically there was a man named Jesus.So hm lets see,Logic and reason are the same thing but okay, Ask your self this before you try to knock out Jesus existed, Going by your rules,what evidence do you have as of why your here,who created you,what made the earth,Why when the weather channel says its going to rain,it doesn't, Why are many things we thought wouldn't happen happened,how are people magically cured of diseases,there is one thing wrong with your reasoning,you explain what you can explain,All of those things I just said you can not explain,but how were we created I guess you just have to have FAITH or whenever is doesn't rain blame the weather person right? So before you try to reason with us,first ask yourself those questions,and if life were to happen by a MIRACLE not reffering to God,then that miracle~ oh I said miracle run,something atheist normally don't believe in happened without a creator~ i think not!

(The Duke of Vandals;38446)
Of course there can be. I thought Christians were fond of touting how people convert to their relgion?Why? Why aren't other things that are obviously impossible a matter of faith?This is an ad hominem attack against me rather than my argument. You're not supporting your own argument. You're simply insulting me. Review my posts carefully. You won't find me stating anything like, "Well, you're not CAPABLE of understanding evolution because you're a Christian". I'm curious as to why you're so quick to devolve into intellectual scorn. Do you feel as though I've wronged you? Appeal to popular opinion. I told you: I will tolerate no fallacies. Wait. Didn't you just state there's no convincing? Clearly something convinced you. What was it? Prove it. I'll respond to the rest of your post after you provide evidence for the above quoted claim.
I wrote a rather long post with lots of evidence which you did not even deign to answer. Instead you chose a belligerent stance which profits us nothing.As I said this has the makings of the Argument Clinic. I say one thing and you nay say until we are both exhausted/ frustrated and give up. There can be no meeting of minds when one mind is closed and does not intend on opening. I have been down this road countless times. I was not exactly being prophetic. I foresaw the tone that you have just demonstrated from seeing countless such posts from others. Then you take me to task and prove my point by acting precisely as I was being wary of. Sadly we have not met before. I am not in the habit of reviewing posts. I prefer to dialog than rehash.There are many ways to proceed. There is the experiential. There are the facts. My story is a combination of the two.I grew up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I went to Sabbath School (not Sunday School) and learned all of the stories. I knew more about Jesus and whoever else you care to name than most people. However, something was missing. I did not see Jesus reflected in the people I knew. I began to look for reasons not to believe at a young age.I kept a list of things that I didn't believe. I read everything I could in the Bible in order to disprove it. The SDAs believe in adult baptism. My baptism or non-baptism became an issue. My father brought in the artillery. He found a traveling evangelist from NY and convinced him to come to our home and debate me without warning. I was angry and I let go with both barrels.I peppered him with questions that caught him off guard and left him scratching his head. I was triumphant. All of my hard work paid off. However relations with my father deteriorated until I left home as a teen and traveled across the country (west to east coast). I worked and put myself through university.I was a university radical. I did everything I could to buck the system. It was the seventies after all. By the time that I was nearly done university I was pretty hard core. Socialist. Humanist. Anything but Christian. Yet one of my closest friends was a radical Christian into liberation theology. He ran what was called the SCM (Student Christian Movement) book room. He asked me to take over after he finished final year. I said sure. Why not? There were lots of good looking girls hanging out there.One of life's great ironies. I was an atheist and I was running a library for Christians. I was also an activist on campus and would not shrink from sharing my views.I only ran the book room for one year. I took a year off and bummed around Europe. When I came back I got a job and finished my degree. I also fell in love. I got married and went to teacher's college. I got a job working with native people in the far north. There was a strange convergence of events that now I see as being providential. At the time I didn't.Our community was Roman Catholic. The majority of teachers were Christian as in protestant. Evangelicals, too. The Catholic church had never been disposed well to evangelical Protestants particularly when they had the whole community to themselves. They were interlopers.However, two ladies came to translate the Bible into the native tongue. They were English and from the Wycliffe Bible translators. The RCC all of a sudden changed its attitude and allowed them to hold services in the school. Bible studies sprouted up like tulips in the spring.I was an outsider for sure. There wasn't much social life so I stayed home. My wife attended for the tea and cookies. She was a nominal Christian.A year or so later a family moved to our community. Unlike us he had kids and a wife who was not a teacher. He was as Pentecostal and charismatic as they come. He became my teaching partner. We shared a classroom and got the hard core truant cases. We had lots of free time.He was an artist (who now makes his living selling very expensive paintings). He was my neighbor as well. He built a log cabin in the back to paint in. I helped him. We became friends.I was a photographer and a doodler. I offered him constructive criticism and our friendship grew. What began as a personal friendship developed into more.Now here is the kicker. i did not learn this until afterwards. He never applied for the job. He did not even know about the community. Teaching jobs were in short supply in those days. He was working as a janitor in Vancouver. Our school needed a replacement and called the Vancouver School Board. They did not know anybody who would want to move to the arctic. Hey, wait a minute. We do have this guy with a family that is a teacher. He is working as a janitor.You get the idea. He moved to the north without asking for it or wanting it. It is one of those coincidences that have deep and mysterious ramifications. It is like the Celestine Prophecy to sound very Zen but better. Incidentally I dabbled in eastern philosophy at university taking up transcendental meditation among other things.Any way. That is the beginning of my transformation. It began with an invitation to attend the Bible study. I refused and was challenged with what was I afraid of? I tagged along for months. I felt stupid, but there wasn't much else to do.We got into heated debates (at least I got hot) when there were no kids to teach. They were lively, but he was patient and kind. He had no expectations. He did not act the way I expected him to.Then one day I asked the inevitable question. What if I was wrong? I never even entertained the idea that I could be wrong. That is how dead certain I was. Just asking the question unloosened something in me. I felt in turmoil.Then one day I had an experience. It changed me forever. I had a vision. I was not prone to visions and had given up dope long ago. It was as real to me as anything I had ever experienced.It left me shaken. Both due to the experience and the nature of the vision. All my life I asked questions. All my life I searched for answers. In my vision I realized that my questions would never satisfy me. I could never find the answer I was looking for. I was in a mansion with a long corridor and doors. I looked in doors and entered a few. There were more corridors and doors. I could not escape. As I became more desperate I looked up. I never thought of looking up. I was so fixated on the doors and corridors.I saw a great light and that was when I got it. It came to me in a flash. I realized in a blink that I had found the answer to my questions. It wasn't through my own efforts either.I had instantaneous clarity. I was surer about this than I have ever been. I asked my friend what to do to become a Christian and my life has never been the same.I have had other moments of such clarity. I have had many more such experiencess. I am not nuts. I cannot explain it. God is as real to me as anything. he is as real to me as air or water. I cannot explain it any other way. Once I accepted this it was as if I had always been this way. I knew that I never wanted to be anywhere else than to be in God's presence.This is intensely personal to me. It is part of my journey. I wish that everyone could experience God like I do. It isn't something that I can convince anyone of. I could not even convince myself. I have been on the outside. I know exactly what it feels like. I know the thoughts and feelings associated with being a non-believer.You asked for proof. I am living proof that God can change even a hard core atheist. In the end it wasn't argument that won me over. I had an epiphany that was very real to me.That is why I say it isn't argument but faith. Faith moves mountains. Faith changes everything.If I could be very clever and say all of the right things it would change nothing. Everyone has different experiences and a story of their own. It is the stories of people that fascinate me. Facts are clinical. Stories have substance.I don't think that anyone is incapable of understanding or changing. However it isn't the ideas that change us. We are changed by allowing ourselves to be moved. If we take a rigid position (as I have been known to do in the past) then we cannot move and the discussion goes nowhere. Discussion has to be about a meeting of minds or it becomes pointless. I might as well talk to the wall if the person I am talking to is not receptive.If your intent is to discover truth wherever that leads then we can have a useful discussion. If we are just playing games I will take a rain check.So you will tolerate no fallacies. Hmm. Tolerate. I guess you want to be the boss. If that is what turns your crank. I don't like to lecture or be lectured to. I'll pass on the attitude, thanks. I don't think that I talked down to you. BTW, I'm not big on labels. There was no attack. If you were offended that was not my intent.I have given my story. My intent is to be open and transparent. If you are looking for ulterior motives, you won't find them. I do not intend to convince you. I will share ideas but if you choose to be unconvinced that is your right.As I said there is nothing that I can say that will change you. It isn't up to me. It is up to you and to God. Don't worry if you don't believe in him. Fortunately he believes in you and he won't hold it against you. Nor do I.