This has nothing to do with the difference between God's will and mans will, which is what I was addressing to GodsGrace. If you want to respond to a post not addressed to you, then at least stay in context.
Stranger
Saved By Fear?
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This has nothing to do with the difference between God's will and mans will, which is what I was addressing to GodsGrace. If you want to respond to a post not addressed to you, then at least stay in context.
Stranger
The point is that God foreknows the person and chooses. He doesn't look ahead into the future and then see who is going to believe and who won't.
How is the Man, Jesus Christ exercising 'free will' when He says, 'not my will, but thine be done'? If His will were free He would have not went to the cross. But other forces were bearing upon His will at this time.
You don't believe Scripture is the Word of God anyway, so why do you waste your and my time giving Scripture? You like to use the Scripture when you can, then run and hide from Scripture when you disagree with it, saying the Bible is not the Word of God. Oxymoron.
Stranger
I am addressing the issues. As I said, God foreknows the person and chooses. The person will choose as a result. Yes, God knows how the person will choose, because God knows who He has chosen. And the person will choose accordingly.
If you don't want to reply back then don't. That's up to you. I am not arguing Calvinism. You are. I am saying that there is an election of God and election is God's choosing which is followed by man choosing. I am saying that man does not have free will. Man has a will. Only God has free will. And I have explained why this is so.
Stranger
Because HE gave His will to God, that is what we are supposed to do, you dont have to if you dont want to, it is your free will and your choice to do so. If you dont like it, choose death and tell God not to oppose your will, He wont like it, but He will let you choose as you feel fit. I dont know why you would want to but many have.
The Man Jesus Christ submitted to the will of another. That is not 'free will'. When the Son became a Man, Jesus Christ, He was placed in the position of His will not being 'free' just as mans will was not free. He was placed in the position where things acted upon His will to influence His will just as Adam experienced. Only Christ was victorious and always submitted to the will of the Father.
Stranger
God did not twist His arm, HE freely gave up His choice for God, that My Friend is Free will, if it was not, than we would not have salvation, it had to be His choice. READ.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
His choice, what is it you have against free will you use it freely to come and argue against it, that is your free will doing just as it says.
Again, I never said man does not have a will. Pay attention to the description and definition I have given concerning 'will' and 'free will'. All you are doing is saying they are the same. And they are not.
Is God's will and your will the same in nature? And please quit giving Scripture when you don't believe it.
Stranger
(2 Thess. 2:13) Because God has chosen the way that His chosen come into salvation.
And, because God told you to. That alone should be enough reason. Or, must God prove to you the why before you do it?
Stranger
Man you really are an odd one,
One thing I learned about God, is that there is nothing I can do or say or think that He doesnt already know about, before teh beginning of time He saw us having this stupid discussion over something that you are freely practicing, you will, that one God gave to all of us, to exercise freely our own choices.
If I didnt believe it I wouldn't Quote it. I quote what I know to be true, not just because it is in the bible, which is all you are doing.
Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
It is what revelation is all about. But men are too smart for God and dont need Him
I can't explain free will again. I even posted some links which I doubt you've read or you wouldn't be asking me this again.
Of course God's will is different than our own. He's God. He can fly if He wants to, we cannot. But, again, this is NOT what biblical will is. It just pertains to choice of a moral type. We can choose to do good or to do evil, we could choose God or we could choose satan. Maybe the simplicity of it makes it be difficult.
Your will means WANT. What one wills, what one wants. God can will and want and He has the power to achieve it. We can will and want but we do not have the power to achieve it. We cannot fly even though we may will or want to. God can.
1 Corinthians 7:36-37
36But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.
37But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
If you do a study on will, which you probably have but have ended up in incorrect theology, you find that we do have a will and that it is free to choose. Verse 37 above says that we have authority over our own will, even though it is affected by outside sources. If we have authority over it, it means that it is free. It's the free part that you cannot accept.
We are exhorted to follow the will of God, for instance in 2 Peter 4:2. We are told there how we should live a life pleasing to God. We have a free will to either live a life for God or live a life against God. Nowhere in scripture are we forced to live a life for God, but we are given the choice. If we are exhorted, we are being asked, if we are being ASKED it means we have a choice. If we had no choice there would be no point in asking.
See John 7:16-17
16So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
Again, we hear JESUS saying that if anyone is willing..
To be willing means you can choose to do something or choose not to do something. If we can choose, then our will must be free.
If we do not have free will, God has created a stage of performers which He controls. Do you think this is what God wanted when He created us?
Do you think God needs US to glorify Himself? What kind of a God sends some people to hell purposefully so He could glorify Himself to the ones that are going to heaven?
I repeat, Calvinism cannot be correct because it changes the nature of God.
@GodsGrace Silly thing is he is here doing just that,practising his free will to argue, If he had no free will do you think God would allow Him to argue about it.
OzSpen
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I'm one of those, as the Bible teaches it and I've provided biblical support above.
The way you write confuses me. I like to be very clear.
So let's make what you believe and what I believe very clear since you're saying my answer is the same as Calvin's. May it never be!
Calvin:
God predestined, from the beginning of time who would be saved and who would not be saved -- and this not based on anything. He just picked some. So some are going to heaven and some are going to hell depending on what God decided way back when. Jesus died only for those who were already destined for heaven, He did not die for the whole world or for all men.
Me:
God foreknew who would be saved. He predestined these people to be saved through His Son Jesus Christ and to be made to be like Him. He predestined the method of salvation, not who would be saved. All men can choose to be saved or not. The Father draws ALL men to Himself and it's up to the person to choose if he will serve God and end up in heaven. God is a loving God and gives the same opportunity to all. There is no partiality with God...all men are the same to Him.
If you read carefully you'll find that the difference is akin to day and night,,,a loving God and a God who has no feelings for His created beings and that could easily send them to hell forever through no fault of their own.
Please don't tell me my words are the same as Calvin's.
BTW, they are not MY words, but the words of the New Testament. THIS is what the New Testament teaches.
I like to believe the bible and have trust in God,
not a man.
OzSpen
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OzSpen
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Since you wouldn't explain it, I thought I would.
If determinism* is true we are all essentially uncontrolled, noise-making puppets with our strings pulled mindlessly by the physical universe. Because we always remain part of the universe we can never cut our strings and step outside the universe in order to objectively evaluate anything, including our own words. We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.
Clearly then, Harris's thesis of determinism being true is self-defeating. If one asserts that there are valid, comprehensible reasons for believing that determinism is true, as Harris does, then in doing so he shows that determinism must necessarily be false.
source: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=17152&page=2
(Determinism:
God predestined and determines everything that will happen, we have nothing to do with it. )
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determinism
dɪˈtəːmɪnɪz(ə)m/
noun
PHILOSOPHY
- the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
bbyrd009
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Always preach the gospel,
And when absolutely necessary,
Use words.
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