Time to move on

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If Jesus is not God, then we're just worshipping a man
I have already written in the forum many times where I stand with this.........The Holy Spirit makes everything more complete, but I don't know that it is a 'demand' for us to receive His Spirit in order to be saved...Sorry been typing quite a bit already this morning, and my hands can't do too much at any one time....I'm sure you could find any number of places, where I speak of Jesus as being divine.. :)
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I have already written in the forum many times where I stand with this.........The Holy Spirit makes everything more complete, but I don't know that it is a 'demand' for us to receive His Spirit in order to be saved...Sorry been typing quite a bit already this morning, and my hands can't do too much at any one time....I'm sure you could find any number of places, where I speak of Jesus as being divine.. :)
Here are some verses about Jesus being divine:

Mathew 16:16
John 1:1
John 1:2
Romans 1:4
John 14:7-10
and so many others

I don't know what you mean by "receiving the Holy Spirit to be saved".
Aren't all believers indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Ezekiel 36:27
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

and many more....
The Holy Spirit is with all believers...
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Rejection of the trinity does not necessarily mean a rejection of the deity or divinity of Jesus, nor does it necessarily mean a denial of the holy Spirit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Whos , Christs version or mens version, they are quiet different, and in quiet a stark diff at times.
You're right. We seem to understand Jesus in different ways.
We all see Him as coming to be our salvation, our Savior, and this is very true.
How many see Him as a teacher sent by God to show us how to have a better life right here on this earth? How many see Him as having His goal (one of them) to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

How do You see Him?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Rejection of the trinity does not necessarily mean a rejection of the deity or divinity of Jesus, nor does it necessarily mean a denial of the holy Spirit.
I don't understand how this could be true.
If Jesus is divine, He had to exist from the beginning. How could this be if He is not God? If He was CREATED, then how is He God? God is the creator, not the created.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You're right. We seem to understand Jesus in different ways.
We all see Him as coming to be our salvation, our Savior, and this is very true.
How many see Him as a teacher sent by God to show us how to have a better life right here on this earth? How many see Him as having His goal (one of them) to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

How do You see Him?
Lord. Saviour best friend, teacher, truth, life, hope, Joy, did I leave anything out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't understand how this could be true.
If Jesus is divine, He had to exist from the beginning. How could this be if He is not God? If He was CREATED, then how is He God? God is the creator, not the created.
What do we really understand that can accurately be communicated to a person whose beliefs or understandings or definitions are different than ours? I see no one really understanding the trinity. Someone told them it was right and it fits some of the scriptures if no one messes too much with the definitions.

As a child in the Catholic Church I paid lip service to it because that is what the nuns taught us in catechism. They even has prepared picture of a three-leaf clover as a visual aid to go with their explanation. The priest probably mentioned it in some of his talks over the years, but no one gave a better explanation than nun. When I left my regular formal connection to them when I went off to school, I left my last definition connection with the trinity. When God called me back to Him it was through a Oneness Jesus Only group [the UPC] and I have never returned to the trinity even closely.

As to divine, what is the definition of the word? Does it necessarily and always mean no beginning and no ending? Does it necessarily and always mean the One God only?

What if God created Jesus to be a creator/Creator? Is God unable to create a creator? The verse I look to for help in understanding is this one:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou" Gen 41:40

It would be a type or shadow of the difference between the Father God and Jesus. Pharaoh as the Father and Joseph as Jesus.
 

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What do we really understand that can accurately be communicated to a person whose beliefs or understandings or definitions are different than ours? I see no one really understanding the trinity. Someone told them it was right and it fits some of the scriptures if no one messes too much with the definitions.

As a child in the Catholic Church I paid lip service to it because that is what the nuns taught us in catechism. They even has prepared picture of a three-leaf clover as a visual aid to go with their explanation. The priest probably mentioned it in some of his talks over the years, but no one gave a better explanation than nun. When I left my regular formal connection to them when I went off to school, I left my last definition connection with the trinity. When God called me back to Him it was through a Oneness Jesus Only group [the UPC] and I have never returned to the trinity even closely.

As to divine, what is the definition of the word? Does it necessarily and always mean no beginning and no ending? Does it necessarily and always mean the One God only?

What if God created Jesus to be a creator/Creator? Is God unable to create a creator? The verse I look to for help in understanding is this one:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou" Gen 41:40

It would be a type or shadow of the difference between the Father God and Jesus. Pharaoh as the Father and Joseph as Jesus.

What if God created Jesus to be the creator? Well, he didn't. Jesus is the word, and the word in essence is God and was with him in the beginning. Therefore, he didn't create himself. He is the first that ever was and the last that ever will be. Before him there was no gods formed, neither shall there be after.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What if God created Jesus to be the creator? Well, he didn't. Jesus is the word, and the word in essence is God and was with him in the beginning. Therefore, he didn't create himself. He is the first that ever was and the last that ever will be. Before him there was no gods formed, neither shall there be after.
I am sure you have read verses which show the other side from where you are. I could post them, but since your mind is made up there would be no point, would there?

Give God, who gives the increase, the glory!
 

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am sure you have read verses which show the other side from where you are. I could post them, but since your mind is made up there would be no point, would there?

Give God, who gives the increase, the glory!

Well, whats wrong with my mind being made up on something that is plainly stated?? When the Bible says that there are three that bear record in heaven as Father, Word and Holy Spirit, I have no reason to believe otherwise. One cannot exist without the other just like the body of the earthly cannot exist without the blood, water and spirit. Jesus as the word is the very essence of God and always has been.

(1 John 5:6-8) "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. {7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. {8} And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, whats wrong with my mind being made up on something that is plainly stated?? When the Bible says that there are three that bear record in heaven as Father, Word and Holy Spirit, I have no reason to believe otherwise. One cannot exist without the other just like the body of the earthly cannot exist without the blood, water and spirit. Jesus as the word is the very essence of God and always has been.
Give God the glory!
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,855
9,591
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, whats wrong with my mind being made up on something that is plainly stated?? When the Bible says that there are three that bear record in heaven as Father, Word and Holy Spirit, I have no reason to believe otherwise. One cannot exist without the other just like the body of the earthly cannot exist without the blood, water and spirit. Jesus as the word is the very essence of God and always has been.

Dcopymope: I just want to inform you that the verses you are using to support your causes are a forgery, in part.

There is a critical problem in at least 35 percent of English translations of verse 1 John 5:7 and the first part of verse 8.

Here’s the KJV

(1Jn 5:6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(1Jn 5:8) And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (ALL KJV)

Now verse 7 and the first part of verse 8, highlighted in red, was altered by the KJV translators of 1611. Others, including the Catholic Douay-Rheims translators quickly followed suit and changed these verses to the same.

Even the ORIGINAL Vulgate translation never had the English translated words of " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth," It was added and therefore these verses are a forgery!

Many scholars agree that after the Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516 this gross error crept in. Many say that the 3rd edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT of 1522 is when this insertion was originally made because of pressure from the Catholic Church.

The KJV should correctly read:

(1Jn 5:6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(1Jn 5:8) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (ALL KJV)

Now this is what most English translations read…with some variations

(1Jn 5:6) This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that testify:
(1Jn 5:8) the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (ALL ESV)

So, I would advise you not to use the KJV verse 7 and part of verse 8 to support ‘the word’ = Jesus. It is just not there.

Bless you,

APAK
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Aren't all believers indwelt with the Holy Spirit?
I have been told both yes and no by various pastors, but it was my experience that once asking, believing and then receiving the Holy Spirit, that everything was different...Like a blinker being taken off my mind...We are instructed somewhere in the bible to ask for the Spirit, and receive it as a gift......
" Have you received the Spirit, since you believed ?" ( In the letters somewhere)
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I have been told both yes and no by various pastors, but it was my experience that once asking, believing and then receiving the Holy Spirit, that everything was different...Like a blinker being taken off my mind...We are instructed somewhere in the bible to ask for the Spirit, and receive it as a gift......
" Have you received the Spirit, since you believed ?" ( In the letters somewhere)
I think this might make an interesting thread.
I believe the Holy Spirit indwells us immediately.
Maybe it depends on what we mean by receiving the Holy Spirit?
I'll put this under theology, the study of God.
 

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dcopymope: I just want to inform you that the verses you are using to support your causes are a forgery, in part.

There is a critical problem in at least 35 percent of English translations of verse 1 John 5:7 and the first part of verse 8.

Here’s the KJV

(1Jn 5:6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(1Jn 5:8) And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (ALL KJV)

Now verse 7 and the first part of verse 8, highlighted in red, was altered by the KJV translators of 1611. Others, including the Catholic Douay-Rheims translators quickly followed suit and changed these verses to the same.

Even the ORIGINAL Vulgate translation never had the English translated words of " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth," It was added and therefore these verses are a forgery!

Many scholars agree that after the Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516 this gross error crept in. Many say that the 3rd edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT of 1522 is when this insertion was originally made because of pressure from the Catholic Church.

The KJV should correctly read:

(1Jn 5:6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(1Jn 5:8) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (ALL KJV)

Now this is what most English translations read…with some variations

(1Jn 5:6) This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that testify:
(1Jn 5:8) the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (ALL ESV)

So, I would advise you not to use the KJV verse 7 and part of verse 8 to support ‘the word’ = Jesus. It is just not there.

Bless you,

APAK

default_hmm.gif
So the idea proposed here is that no one knew of the text until it magically popped into existence during the 16th century. Is that the idea here??? Even though there were plenty of early Christians who quoted it or alluded to the text to some degree going all the way back to the 2nd/3rd century, along with old Latin manuscripts dating back to about the fifth century containing the text (Old Latin, NOT the Vulgate), it is still claimed by the world to be a medieval "forgery"?? Yeah, I don't think so. I'll believe God when he promised to preserve his word.
default_rolleyes.gif


(1 Peter 1:23-25) "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. {24} For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: {25} But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

(Matthew 24:34-35) "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. {35} Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace