The Importance of Correct Theology

(thesuperjag;38951)
I don't want anything happen to any of you guys.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
What do you mean when you say this?

(stlizzy;38953)
No it's based of the idea of three earth ages... which I am not saying is bad or good because it's up to God to reveal things to us in our own time... but this is where I believe the notion comes from? Correct me if I am wrong, please.All Praise be to God the Father!
The three World ages is completly Biblical stlizzy it is written in 2 Peter2:3many will try to tell you this is Noahs flood but Noahs flood was never a secret nor were the Heavens destroyed in the flood this was a mystery revealed to us by Peter 5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.]

(stilizzy;38954)
(thesuperjag;38951)
I don't want anything happen to any of you guys.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
What do you mean when you say this?Which is more painful? To fall down after running and landed on a concrete sidewalk with scrapes, scratches with blood covered... (there are 10 spots on me, happened on Feburary 3rd) OR to believe in a lie?JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

(thesuperjag;38959)
Which is more painful? To fall down after running and landed on a concrete sidewalk with scrapes, scratches with blood covered... (there are 10 spots on me, happened on Feburary 3rd) OR to believe in a lie?JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
To believe in a lie, I would state. But you don't know what I believe or anyone else believes, only the Father knows our hearts. So just keep in loving God and planting seeds and sharing the Truth of Christ's salvation and let God worry about the rest.

(stilizzy;38960)
(thesuperjag;38959)
Which is more painful? To fall down after running and landed on a concrete sidewalk with scrapes, scratches with blood covered... (there are 10 spots on me, happened on Feburary 3rd) OR to believe in a lie?JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
To believe in a lie, I would state. But you don't know what I believe or anyone else believes, only the Father knows our hearts. So just keep in loving God and planting seeds and sharing the Truth of Christ's salvation and let God worry about the rest. That's why we need discernments to know which doctrine is good or which is evil.I John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.P.S. we can know what some believes if they talk about it on here, other than that, we can't know people's heart.

(thesuperjag;38968)
That's why we need discernments to know which doctrine is good or which is evil.I John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.P.S. we can know what some believes if they talk about it on here, other than that, we can't know people's heart.
Yes you are right that we need discernment (and to constantly rely on God and come back to God, asking Him if what we have heard is from Him) yet, even the saved can be lead astray- that doesn't mean that they're not saved or that they're not sincere... but you are correct that we should rebuke false teachers so that we don't lead astray the lost. But, it is God who reveals who is false teachers, and I take His word over the word of anyone else. We can use the Bible as our foundation for rebuking obviously false doctrine, but when you have two sides both uses the scripture- and using it soundly- then revert to God.... P.S. people are constantly changing in Christ... so I am careful to never condemn someone who is trying to understand scripture in anyway... asking questions and making suggestions is better than boldly declaring that you have all of the answers, in my opinion, because the only One who has all of the answers is God Himself. Look what Paul writes:"Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

waynemlj,you should re-read my post. I did not say you claimed righteousness justified or that any could justify himself. I said in context the verses you quoted regarding righteousness, as in "none are" cannot mean that no one is righteous but is referring to the fact that it is Jesus and not righteousness that saves us. Even Noah, Moses, Elijah, Enoch...etc all needed Jesus to save them. So if you are going to "be fair" to me at least have the courtesy to read my post carefully before accusing me of writing something I did not write.1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."None righteous" in Romans cannot be refering to a lack of righteousness among men, but of an insufficiency of that righteousness ALONE to save us.

Waynemlj,The word righteous appears over 200 in the KJV of the Bible, mostly in the old testament and by far the majority of the time it is refering to people, a person or the righteousness of some people (as opposed to the wicked). To paste all would fill several pages, here are just a few.Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Num 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth [part] of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his! 2Sa 4:11 How much more, when wicked men have slain a righteous person in his own house upon his bed? shall I not therefore now require his blood of your hand, and take you away from the earth? Job 17:9 The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger. Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield. Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry. Eze 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Waynemlj,forgot to mention total depravity since you claimed very ancient support for this belief from the OT. You bypass my reference to almost two thousand years of Christianity and Christian understanding of the Bible to suggest instead the OT view supports your understanding of that term. This if only true would then make your view “older”. When I said “total depravity” is relatively modern, we meant no one in the Christian world until Calvin conceived of the condition of mankind as defined in his (and yours) understanding of the term "totally depraved". So it has only been less than 500 years since this view suddenly appeared in all of human history. Since you skipped all that history and understanding of scripture to appeal to Calvin’s modern view/understanding of the OT, you no doubt realize my statement was true regarding the history of Christianity. There is no question man fell with Adam and that none can stand before God without Jesus sacrifice for us all. It does not follow and the OT verses just given in my prior posts support that the fall of man was not as far as Calvin or you imagine.

(waynemlj;39263)
Hi DrBubbaLove,Thank you for the time you took to put together your thoughtful response. Yes, I see you were thinking of the "term" total depravity and not the "condition" of fallen man. Agreed!
Slow down waynemlj, am not sure we understand each other. Allow me to state my understanding of both views and see if we understand the other’s position.The much older and traditional view of the Fall is that it left man's body and soul in a state of disunity. We have in our soul, our minds, the capacity and desire to “do good” but are inclined to resist that desire because of the Fall. Given enough time and repeated sin we can scar our conscience to the point we no longer feel that desire. In fact the exact opposite can manifest, we start to see evil as good and good as evil. A form of spiritual insanity, if you will, IOW such a person does not see the world as it “really” is. Yet at birth and in this life, there is still something good in all of us. And yes of course that varies, but the hope would be even in the most wicked of us, some good remains and that it would be the seed God could use to turn such a person around before they die in that state. This state of having some good in us is not the same as salvation or justification. No amount of goodness in man can make him right with God without a Savior. That is why even Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Enoch….etc all of those “righteous” men still need Jesus to save them.The more modern view (less than 500 years old) and a view unheard of until Calvin and Luther, is that the Fall was total, leaving ALL man with nothing good in them when born. No desire for good and certainly not an inclination for evil. The view is that we are born totally evil, which means the total absence of good. So total depravity means being born with no “goodness” in us, we are utterly and totally evil beings. Even the elect are born in this state and only the elect will recover from it. Only the regenerate are capable of doing “good” and only the elect will regenerate. All others can only pretend to do “good”.
"I said in context the verses you quoted regarding righteousness, as in "none are" cannot mean that no one is righteous but is referring to the fact that it is Jesus and not righteousness that saves us. Even Noah, Moses, Elijah, Enoch...etc all needed Jesus to save them." In your words that I pasted above, you say that' "none are" cannot mean that no one is righteous.' But, that's exactly what God's Word does mean when He is describing what fallen man is like. The reason that Jesus saves us is that He is Righteousness, and He takes away our sin by His death and resurrecion And transfers His Righteousness to us.
Go back and read all of Romans 3 in context. Notice that he ends the thought with "all come short" and think about what that means, to "come short". Could it mean total depravity? Coming short indicates an attempt not to "come short" or is another way of saying there is something lacking. A totally depraved person cannot "come short" of God's glory. So in that context "none righteous" compared to God cannot mean a total lack of goodness.

(waynemlj;38873)
I have spent several hours reading the Posts and Replies of many of my brothers and sisters in Christ on this very good Christian Message Board.In doing so, I have been encouraged by the faith I see coming from the members. I also see the importance to the joy of all those who believe unto salvation that we get our theology right.Despite what you and I may think, the Truth of God's Word stands as a beacon of light. We must continue to dig deep into the Bible in order to get proper understanding.Psalm 119:105, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."Does it matter if everyone agrees that Jesus died only for the elect of God and not for ALL men? I believe it does matter. It matters greatly. Our joy is increased beyond measure in a thankful heart that knows that it deserved nothing from God but His terrible wrath and condemnation to eternal darkness and torment.God wrote His Letter (the Bible) to us and commanded us to get understandingroverbs 16:16, "How much better to get wisdom than gold!To get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver."Ephesians 1:17-19, "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints..."I think that all of us who believe the Gospel take these words seriously and that's why I believe that the theology we all hold must be in accordance with the Truth of the Bible and not just our own feeling about the way we think things ought to be.1) Therefore, I submit for your serious consideration that Universal Atonement (that Jesus died for all men) is an error, and is not found in the Bible.2) Limited Atonement (Jesus dying only for the Elect of the Father) is the Truth from the Bible. (John, Ch. 17 will supply ample proof. Other Scriptures that reveal this same truth are found in Jesus' words in Matthew 24:22,24,31 and in Mark 13:20,22,27 and in Romans 8:33 and in Romans 11:7 and in 2 Timothy 2:10 and in Titus 1:1.)Jesus said in John 15:11, "These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full."May the Truth of His joy be in all of us and may our joy be full!waynemlj
You seemed to have overlooked the "Whosoever's in the Bible"John 17: 20--21, Even if Jesus was speaking to the elect, [which He wasn't]He has included the ones who will believe v20, Note, Jesus didn't say "The ones that I choose", But, the believer.1 John 2: 2, Jesus is the Propitiation for the "Whole world", Not the elect.1 Timothy 2: 4, "Who would have "All men" to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" Titus 2: 11, "God's grace that brings salvation has appeared to "ALL MEN"2 Peter 3: 9, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that "ALL" should come to repentance".1 Timothy 4: 10--11, v 10, " God is the saviour of "ALL MEN", specially of those "That BELIEVE".V11, "These things command and teach".God has commanded us to teach that Jesus died for everyone.The reason why "The elect" is error.There is about nine scriptures that say, God is no respecter of people.and to have respect for people is a sin, To say that God chooses one and not the other, makes God a sinner.Here is how to understand the Elect, God has chosen a body, and that body consists of everyone who will believe and receieve His salvation.God chose a body, not an indervidual.

(tim_from_pa;38874)
This doctrine is like predestination vs. free choice paradox. I believe they both co-exist.Jesus is like that man who sold everything he had to buy a field, but it was for the treasure in that field. In other words, the price paid was sufficient for the whole world, but he wanted the treasure.Now, in conventional Christianity, we are taught that salvation will not work without faith, but then again faith is given by God, so although it is open to all who believe, it effectively works on only those who believe, and the net result is the same as election, even though the price is enough to save everyone. This way nobody can claim "you did not choose me" defense before God. God always works in paradoxes.Now, while I agree overall, I must caution regarding the use of "elect" in Matthew 24. As I always say to the folks here, there is an election of grace, and there's the election of race.People confuse the two and wonder why Jews are "chosen" if they are lost. The answer is because they are part of the elect of race. It is possible to have the promises, the nations, the kingdom, the power and wealth that goes with it and so forth, but yet be personally lost. Then it's possible to not be chosen, and of a race that has no promises, and yet obtain personal salvation (grace). Then again, there are some nations that have BOTH (lucky guys) I truly believe that Matthew 24 is talking about the elect of race, as Jesus will regather the dispersed tribes of Israel to bring back into the land during the last days to fulfill Ezekiel 37. Far too often, Christians look at only the spiritual side of the NT, as if it's something "churchy". However, in the true context, what Jesus taught was really political and nationalistic as well.
I agree with "The election of Race". It will help people to understand the Bible, when they know who God is speaking to, or about.It will also help when you know, Who is doing the speaking, God, a Biblical charracter, or the translators.As for God giving faith to believe, God has given everyone the freewill to believe and except the truth, those that do will be saved.