Is The Rapture Theory Biblical?

Davy said:

I don't have to worry about misinterpreting the timing of those vials, because they are for the timing at the very end of this world, just as the seals and trumpets are too. They are for the final generation that would see those things, which is what Jesus taught in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The seals, trumpets, and vials are actually seven signs that Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.

Now we could debate when the final generation began... that I believe was in 1948 when Israel became a nation again, as God promised Judah that He would bring them back to the land and never move them out again, which so far 1948 is the pointer to that today. Some believe it was with the 1967 war when Israel took back all of Jerusalem.

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Davy, I agree with you that the timing of the vials are for the timing at the very end of this world, but when does the end of this world begin? The end of this world has been a consideration of the prophets from the time of Adam, and the events along the way has only reinforced this understanding.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Davy, I am so sorry for you and your understanding of the scriptures. Perhaps if you considered the historical facts of WW1 and the events that occurred in the Middle Eastern campaign then a glimmer of light might just begin to illuminate your understanding.

G:4578 translated as "earthquakes" is a misrepresentation of the actual meaning of the Greek word found in this passage. The Greek word σεισμὸς is better understood to have the meaning of turmoil which is a great word to use to describe "war" where much killing occurs in all of its forms.

As a side issue, Peleg's Hebrew name according to Strong H:6389 also has the meaning of "earthquake/turmoil" and during the turmoil that God created during the time of the construction of the Tower of Babel, it caused the various families to disburse across the land towards the four corners of the earth. This was recent discovery that I made as I was coming to the end of compiling a data base of the Greek Root words for my use as a study tool to understanding the Greek texts.

My experience is that where turmoil exists people move away from it where they can.

But it seems that you believe that you are the resident expert in all things scriptural.

Shalom

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There are many reputable scholars over the years who have held that during the time of Peleg was when the continents were divided, since that is part of the verse also. it says that the earth "eres" (land, earth, world, etc) was divided. Eres is typically never used of people. Your assertion may be equally as valid, but it is not the only assumption that can be made from the text.

Copperhead said:

There are many reputable scholars over the years who have held that during the time of Peleg was when the continents were divided, since that is part of the verse also. it says that the earth "eres" (land, earth, world, etc) was divided. Eres is typically never used of people. Your assertion may be equally as valid, but it is not the only assumption that can be made from the text.

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The reputable scholars may be right, however, my sense is that the land area of the earth was divided among the tribes/families of the people of the earth by the eventual scattering of the people living in and around the Tower of Babel to the four corners of the earth because of the turmoil God created among the peoples of the earth. It is my experience that people run away from turmoil/conflict so that they are not confronted by the turmoil/conflict occurring.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Davy, I agree with you that the timing of the vials are for the timing at the very end of this world, but when does the end of this world begin? The end of this world has been a consideration of the prophets from the time of Adam, and the events along the way has only reinforced this understanding.

Shalom

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The timing of the seals, trumpets, and vials begins with the last generation, which is the generation Jesus said that will see all those things (i.e., signs).

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV


The very last sign He gave there was the sign of His second coming, which is still in our near future. That same generation must be alive to see the event of His coming, so that automatically cancels any idea of it beginning in past generations.

Davy said:

The timing of the seals, trumpets, and vials begins with the last generation, which is the generation Jesus said that will see all those things (i.e., signs).

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV


The very last sign He gave there was the sign of His second coming, which is still in our near future. That same generation must be alive to see the event of His coming, so that automatically cancels any idea of it beginning in past generations.

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Davy, that is where we part company. You are seeing a near future event for the Second coming of Christ when He comes on the clouds with all of the heavenly hosts to Judge the people within the next 20-30 years, and probably much sooner, whereas I see this event as a distant future event that will occur around 1,050 years into our future. It seems from your post that you are basing this on Matthew 24:34 and your understanding of the English translation of the Greek word γενεὰ which is more in keeping with an age, i.e. a period of time a little longer than 1,000 years in duration, which has been translated as "generation" in the English translations, which is understood to only have a duration of less than 100 years, and probably approaches only around 40 years in duration.

Now my understanding is that from the time when the nation of Israel, symbolised as a fig tree begins to bud leaves until the end of that age, that around 96 years will pass, when the visitation of the iniquity of the fathers on their children and their children's children will end, after which time, God will redeem the nation of Israel, after He has judged the Gentile Nations for trampling His sanctuary for 2,300 years at Armageddon. This is what Paul said will happen after the fulfilling of the 2,300 years of the Gentile trampling the Sanctuary is complete in Romans 11:25-26. After this, God will re-enter into the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant, with the nation of Israel, which they had entered into initially at Mt Sinai before they rebelled against this particular covenant and had Aaron make two idols out of gold to worship while Moses was up on the Mountain speaking with God for 40 days, to be His workers to help bring in the Great harvest of souls during the Millennium Age.

God promised Israel that when He regathers them to Himself that He will plant them in fertile soil and teach them from the rock that come down out of Heaven when He establishes His everlasting Kingdom during the time of these kings (Daniel 2) and that this rock will become a very high mountain in Israel, so that they can be His Priests to the nations of the World. God has set aside a period of 1,000 years for this great harvest of souls to be accomplished within, before Satan and the Beasts and the Little Horn are released for a little while, when the final act of God's planned End Times is completed and the time of Judgement, inheritance and punishment is metered out.

This has been God's plan from the beginning of man's time here on the earth, and all of God's plan will be accomplished.

Sadly, Davy, what you write about and teach concerning the End Times is not found within the recorded prophetic words concerning the End Times of this present World.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Davy, that is where we part company. You are seeing a near future event for the Second coming of Christ when He comes on the clouds with all of the heavenly hosts to Judge the people within the next 20-30 years, and probably much sooner, whereas I see this event as a distant future event that will occur around 1,050 years into our future. It seems from your post that you are basing this on Matthew 24:34 and your understanding of the English translation of the Greek word γενεὰ which is more in keeping with an age, i.e. a period of time a little longer than 1,000 years in duration, which has been translated as "generation" in the English translations, which is understood to only have a duration of less than 100 years, and probably approaches only around 40 years in duration.

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I realize why you move those things over a thousand years from now; it's because of your heeding men's traditions of Amillennialism. The disciples and early 1st century Church fathers were premillennialists, and I agree with them. And I believe in a post-tribulational return of Jesus to gather His elect Church, so you can't throw a bunch of Futurist ideas at me either. I stick to God's Word as written, and to heck with men's traditions and men's credentials.

No need to get in your doctrines of men from Amillennialists that try to change the meaning of "end of the world" in Matt.24. It's easy to know Jesus' disciples were asking Him about the end of this present world by that, because that is when Jesus will return, at the end of this PRESENT world. If you want to call it a world age, fine, still won't change that it's pointing to this PRESENT world, and prior to the start of the Rev.20 "thousand years".

Davy said:

I realize why you move those things over a thousand years from now; it's because of your heeding men's traditions of Amillennialism. The disciples and early 1st century Church fathers were premillennialists, and I agree with them. And I believe in a post-tribulational return of Jesus to gather His elect Church, so you can't throw a bunch of Futurist ideas at me either. I stick to God's Word as written, and to heck with men's traditions and men's credentials.

No need to get in your doctrines of men from Amillennialists that try to change the meaning of "end of the world" in Matt.24. It's easy to know Jesus' disciples were asking Him about the end of this present world by that, because that is when Jesus will return, at the end of this PRESENT world. If you want to call it a world age, fine, still won't change that it's pointing to this PRESENT world, and prior to the start of the Rev.20 "thousand years".

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Davy, each to there own understanding. What I have written above is squarely based on scripture and not on the traditions of men as your understanding demonstrates. For an understanding of the scriptures I have had to study the original texts on which the English translations have been based to verify whether or not the offered English translations reflect the intended mean of the original texts. Sadly, in my humble opinion, the translations reflect the traditions of men more than they reflect the actual word of God, and you have hung your hat so to speak on that peg. I have not.

You have a good day now, you hear me.

Jay Ross said:

Davy, each to there own understanding. What I have written above is squarely based on scripture and not on the traditions of men as your understanding demonstrates. For an understanding of the scriptures I have had to study the original texts on which the English translations have been based to verify whether or not the offered English translations reflect the intended mean of the original texts. Sadly, in my humble opinion, the translations reflect the traditions of men more than they reflect the actual word of God, and you have hung your hat so to speak on that peg. I have not.

You have a good day now, you hear me.

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What you have written follows a doctrine of man that tries to move Christ's coming after His thousand years reign of Revelation 20. That idea is not from Scripture. It is from men. There is plenty of Scripture evidence outside of Revelation 20 to show that Jesus' return and beginning reign with His elect Church over the nations is at the end of this present world. Even Zechariah 14, which reveals His literal return to Jerusalem, shows the rebellious left-overs that came up against Jerusalem being made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. That chapter shows some earth changes accompanying that time man has never seen during this present world. Likewise with Ezekiel 47. The OT prophets also set this timing of Christ's return after this present world on the "day of the Lord".

So you can choose to follow a doctrine of man, but let's be realistic, Amillennialism is not a Biblical doctrine.

In some respects, it also impugns the character of God Himself. Very dangerous territory to get in to.

Davy said:

What you have written follows a doctrine of man that tries to move Christ's coming after His thousand years reign of Revelation 20. That idea is not from Scripture. It is from men. There is plenty of Scripture evidence outside of Revelation 20 to show that Jesus' return and beginning reign with His elect Church over the nations is at the end of this present world. Even Zechariah 14, which reveals His literal return to Jerusalem, shows the rebellious left-overs that came up against Jerusalem being made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. That chapter shows some earth changes accompanying that time man has never seen during this present world. Likewise with Ezekiel 47. The OT prophets also set this timing of Christ's return after this present world on the "day of the Lord".

So you can choose to follow a doctrine of man, but let's be realistic, Amillennialism is not a Biblical doctrine.

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Davy, your defence is based only on your understanding and your motherhood statement that only you are right. You wrote the following: -

Davy said:

The disciples and early 1st century Church fathers were premillennialists, and I agree with them. And I believe in a post-tribulational return of Jesus to gather His elect Church, so you can't throw a bunch of Futurist ideas at me either. I stick to God's Word as written, and to heck with men's traditions and men's credentials.

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But, this statement of yours, is not backed up with scripture to support your stated position.

Davy, can you tell me the year in which the 4,000 years timespan prophecy of Ezekiel 47:1-12 begins and the sign post event that marks the very beginning of this prophecy. Can you also tell me the year in which this 4,000 year time span of this prophecy will end and the sign post event that marks the end of this prophecy. Can you also provide the scriptures which describes these start and end time events as well.

I look forward to your scripturally referenced post to support your rational in your responding post.

Jay Ross said:

Davy, your defence is based only on your understanding and your motherhood statement that only you are right. You wrote the following: -


But, this statement of yours, is not backed up with scripture to support your stated position.

Davy, can you tell me the year in which the 4,000 years timespan prophecy of Ezekiel 47:1-12 begins and the sign post event that marks the very beginning of this prophecy. Can you also tell me the year in which this 4,000 year time span of this prophecy will end and the sign post event that marks the end of this prophecy. Can you also provide the scriptures which describes these start and end time events as well.

I look forward to your scripturally referenced post to support your rational in your responding post.

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4,000 years for Ezekiel 47? a prophecy that God gave Ezekiel by vision that has never happened yet to this day, and your saying it started 4,000 years ago? That's ludicrous, and just reveals all the more how you been sucked into believing doctrines of men. Ezekiel 40-48 is not metaphorical, it will happen literally.

I just pointed you to Zechariah 14 about an event paralled in Ezekiel 47, "living waters". And Zechariah 14 is set for the end of this present world when Jesus returns to gather His Church, because it parallels the "day of the Lord" which Apostles Paul and Peter taught from the OT prophets about the day of Jesus' return and end of this world. But I guess all that's just a little too much information for you handle at one time.

Davy said:

4,000 years for Ezekiel 47? a prophecy that God gave Ezekiel by vision that has never happened yet to this day, and your saying it started 4,000 years ago? That's ludicrous, and just reveals all the more how you been sucked into believing doctrines of men. Ezekiel 40-48 is not metaphorical, it will happen literally.

I just pointed you to Zechariah 14 about an event paralleled in Ezekiel 47, "living waters". And Zechariah 14 is set for the end of this present world when Jesus returns to gather His Church, because it parallels the "day of the Lord" which Apostles Paul and Peter taught from the OT prophets about the day of Jesus' return and end of this world. But I guess all that's just a little too much information for you handle at one time.

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Davy, you are having another rant out of your own ignorance and lack of understanding. If you had understanding of the End Times Prophecies then you would know the starting point of the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy and its starting point when the following occurred in the first two verses of this prophecy -


This prophecy also tells us when the earth will start to be healed.

If you where the prophecy buff that you claim that you are you would know the event which marks the starting point of this twelve verse prophecy as well as when its end will be.

However in your ranting response you stated the following: -


Now to start with in the above paragraph from your post above, you attempt to falsely state that I was indicating that the prophecy, Ezekiel 47:1-12, started/began 4,000 years ago when in fact in my post, I gave no indication of when I believe this prophecy began. You also stated that this prophecy has not yet started. However, it started around 2,950 years ago from my understanding of the recorded events in the Bible. The parable of the Sower also parallels this prophecy as well when it talks about the four ground conditions where the seed is scattered during each of the 1,000 years periods.

Then in the next paragraph you end with a personal attack on me, something that you have accused others, including myself, of doing with the inference that that would be something that you would not do. This is what you said: -


Now, elements of your above post are accidently correct, and I acknowledge that fact, but you have twisted the prophecy outcomes to match your version of your understanding of the end times.

As of yet, you have not given me any confidence in any of your posts to justify your self belief that you have "special" knowledge that entitles you to teach others about the End Times like you are attempting to do on this forum. You claim that I have adopted the doctrines of men, yet in what you present as "facts", in my humble opinion is nothing but the opinion and doctrines of men.

Now unless you can demonstrate with the backup of scriptural references that I am in error in what I post, then I would strongly recommend that you desist from doing so in the future.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

However, it started around 2,950 years ago from my understanding of the recorded events in the Bible. The parable of the Sower also parallels this prophecy as well when it talks about the four ground conditions where the seed is scattered during each of the 1,000 years periods.
....

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You're just playing around, not serious. Now you say Ezekiel 47 started around 2950 years ago. And then you assign the parable of the sower to 4 each 1,000 year periods as a parallel, and that equals 4,000 years which you denied in your post.

In reality, you are mad.

The sower parable has NOTHING to do with the events of Ezekiel 47, and the events of Ezekiel 47 has NEVER been manifested to this day, as it is a future prophecy only for after Christ's return.

I think the term "Rapture Theory" should probably not be used.

The Rapture is biblical

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Usually the discussion is about when the rapture is.

Willie T said:

No, it's not.

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Davy said:

You're just playing around, not serious. Now you say Ezekiel 47 started around 2950 years ago. And then you assign the parable of the sower to 4 each 1,000 year periods as a parallel, and that equals 4,000 years which you denied in your post.

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Oh Davy, why are you making up lies about what I have posted in an attempt to discredit me and what I have written.

This is what I wrote in my post, the #110 post in this thread: -


Also in my response #112 to your response I said the following as to when the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy began with this statement: -


And if this is coupled with my 1,050 year claim found in post #105 where I made the following statement: -


Now Davy, adding 2,950 to 1,050 gives us 4,000 years over which the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy will run. But, you are falsely claiming that I am denying that the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy does not run over 4,000 years and yet you acknowledged that I have said that it will when you wrote this in your post, #113 which I have quoted above where you wrote: -

Davy said:

In reality, you are mad.

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Davy, another small rant where you are making a personal attack against the person with not a scripture in sight to back up any claims that possibly erred within anything that I have written. Your rant is simply confirmation that my assessment of your prophecy buff status is non existent is correct.

Davy said:

The sower parable has NOTHING to do with the events of Ezekiel 47, and the events of Ezekiel 47 has NEVER been manifested to this day, as it is a future prophecy only for after Christ's return.

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The parable of the Sower speaks of four areas where seed is planted as the sower walks along casting out seed to grow. The matured crop that could be harvested in each area reflects the width of the stream/river at each of the stations where the width of the water is measured in the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy. The Parable of the Sower gives a parallel account over time of the harvest of souls in line with the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy.

Now I do agree, in part, with your statement that the Parable of the Sower has nothing to do with the rest of the chapter, Ezekiel 47:13-23 and that this portion of Ezekiel of Ezekiel 47 is still a future distant event that will occur after Christ's return, after His second advent.

Perhaps Davy, after some reflection, you may be able to comment appropriately with scriptural backing for your statements so that a good discussion can be had between us.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Oh Davy, why are you making up lies about what I have posted in an attempt to discredit me and what I have written.

This is what I wrote in my post, the #110 post in this thread: -

Davy, can you tell me the year in which the 4,000 years timespan prophecy of Ezekiel 47:1-12 begins and the sign post event that marks the very beginning of this prophecy. Can you also tell me the year in which this 4,000 year time span of this prophecy will end and the sign post event that marks the end of this prophecy. Can you also provide the scriptures which describes these start and end time events as well.​

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I wasn't the one making up lies; you're the one who is attaching 4,000 years of history to the Ezekiel 47 events which have never... to this day happened. Anyone can simply make up a time span and apply it historically to an event in God's Word, and can sometimes make it seem believable. Such is men's doctrines of Historicism, just another crutch against God's Truth.

Davy said:

I wasn't the one making up lies; you're the one who is attaching 4,000 years of history to the Ezekiel 47 events which have never... to this day happened. Anyone can simply make up a time span and apply it historically to an event in God's Word, and can sometimes make it seem believable. Such is men's doctrines of Historicism, just another crutch against God's Truth.

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There is no further point or hope in having a biblical referenced conversation with you. Oh well such is life.

Lengthy thread now, and I might have missed someone pointing this out, but while many will dismiss the Rapture as being unBiblical, it is clearly a word and idea expressed in the Bible and not even a theory, but fact.

Well... maybe not an English Bible. But it is in the Latin Bible. The "caught up" of 1Thes 4:17 is Harpazo in the Greek and in the Latin, Rapimier, from which we get our transliterated English word, Rapture. The Latin Vulgate is a recognized authoritative translation of the original manuscripts. It was the earliest of all translations from the Greek. If Jerome had been wrong in using rapimier for the Greek harpazo, there would have been ample critical review over the last 1600 years. But the translation still stands the test of time.

The rapture is when God will judge His House first.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

This is why Jesus was and still is warning believers to not only be found abiding in Him, but to be willing to go in a time He described as hardly befitting the end of the great tribulation. Feel free to see the truth in His words at this link to that thread.

Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

Things on my computer keep saying today is the day !

How would they know ?