Who is worthy to open the book?

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bbyrd009

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This was a hard one to swallow since the lens I viewed scripture through was "God hates women". We are all the guilty woman(male and female). But the Lord drank of that cup for us so that we could be the woman found "not guilty" of adultery and conceive new life. The other woman's thigh rots and she is a curse among her people. How does that relate to Jacob wrestling with the Lord to be surnamed?
ya good point, likely the same lesson pitched to either one's male or female perspective
 

Dcopymope

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I'm aware of the "smackdown". I've heard of it my whole life. What I haven't heard of is ...Why did John weep for someone to be found worthy to open judgement? Why the Lamb of "peace"?

Maybe you can shine light on:

1 Timothy 5:23-25
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. [24] Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Revelation 14:12-13
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

"Open Beforehand" ...before what?

What first needs to be understood about the book of Timothy is what they are all about, which is summed up as follows:

(1 Timothy 3:14-15) "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: {15} But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Some men's sins are so blatantly open for all to see that it shouldn't take any further examination of his character for the pastor to not decide to place him in a position of responsibility within the church.

(1 Timothy 5:20-25) "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. {21} I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. {22} Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure. {23} Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. {24} Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. {25} Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid."

I don't see what this has to do with Rev 14.
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The letters to Timothy are all about how churches are to be organized and behave. As for why John cried over the seven seals, well, you already gave the answer to that in your last post below. Like I said, only the lamb was found worthy because he overcame the world.

Honestly, I believe John wept because no one was found worthy to take the book and to open the seals of judgment. No one was found worthy to carry the weight of sin...but then John sees a Lamb slain. A Lamb able to carry the weight of the worlds sin upon His shoulders.


Is it the same book John ate?

And I'm pretty sure the book he ate is basically Revelation itself, much like the scroll that was given to Ezekiel to eat before he prophesied to Israel. The book John ate is the same book Jesus warned not to tamper with in any way, :eek: unless they want their names taken out of the book of life.

(Ezekiel 3:1-4) "Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. {2} So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. {3} And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. {4} ¶ And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them."

(Revelation 10:8-11) "And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. {9} And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. {10} And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. {11} And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

(Revelation 22:18-19) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Now, a similar warning is given by Moses for the entirety of the Bible, but in context, the book John ate is basically the same book Jesus referred to in the last chapter, Revelation.
 

Naomi25

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I've heard that John wept because the scroll held God's plan...as Amadaus suggested. But that plan does not just hold "smackdown" for all the wrongdoing in the world, it holds the fulfillment of Christ's work. Imagine being John, having lived beside Christ for those three years, growing to love him as a friend, and then as Savior...watching him die, and live again for the sins of the world. Finally understanding what Christ's mission was, and then spending your life preaching that mission. And then to be given a vision where no one was found worthy to finish that mission. It would have been the equivalent to being told that Jesus hadn't, actually, risen from the dead. Our salvation would never actually eventuate in glorification.

As far as the book he ate...the word of God is sweet! How wonderful is the gospel of salvation! And yet...we do know that so many people out there refuse God, and will pay the price of their soul because of it. I would say that makes it bitter in the stomach.....bittersweet, as the saying goes.
 

bbyrd009

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one foot on land and one foot on the sea is how the Gospel is to Go. by ship, (sea) and by horse and walking (Land).
i don't think it's bad or anything that you have this understanding, don't get me wrong, but i will say that there are other valid reflections there at least. I would point to various accounts that attest to the Gospel having arrived by other means, but i can't verify them :)
 

101G

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i don't think it's bad or anything that you have this understanding, don't get me wrong, but i will say that there are other valid reflections there at least. I would point to various accounts that attest to the Gospel having arrived by other means, but i can't verify them :)
true, and I agree. and I have nothing against other views. mine is not the only authority or the only one, this I know. but, the Gospel is spread by word of mouth and in those days there was no air travel then when those words were written. that leaves Land and sea. horse & cart, or by foot on land. but if you have any other means where the gospel was carried I game to hear.

PCY
 

bbyrd009

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true, and I agree. and I have nothing against other views. mine is not the only authority or the only one, this I know. but, the Gospel is spread by word of mouth and in those days there was no air travel then when those words were written. that leaves Land and sea. horse & cart, or by foot on land. but if you have any other means where the gospel was carried I game to hear.

PCY
well, @pia is testifying to another way, that i had just mentioned here? Which i have to confess i am not fam with, but i have heard other testimony to that effect--the Spirit arriving with no vehicle, so to speak. Not sure how to search that, but if i get lucky i'll come post the return
 

101G

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well, @pia is testifying to another way, that i had just mentioned here? Which i have to confess i am not fam with, but i have heard other testimony to that effect--the Spirit arriving with no vehicle, so to speak. Not sure how to search that, but if i get lucky i'll come post the return
Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Take it to them.

PCY.
 
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pia

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3 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This is right.:)...When I questioned Him coming, to someone like me ( an unbeliever), He merely said :" You called.", and went on to saying how, if we call with all of our heart, He responds...Wonderful, precious Lord our Savior..
 

101G

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This is right.:)...When I questioned Him coming, to someone like me ( an unbeliever), He merely said :" You called.", and went on to saying how, if we call with all of our heart, He responds...Wonderful, precious Lord our Savior..
Pia you're 100% correct. this was OT foretold to come, listen, Joel 2:30 "And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joel 2:31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call".

"whom the LORD shall call?", "whom the LORD shall call?" listen to the apostle Peter on Pentecost, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

THERE IT IS "whom the LORD shall call?", just what the Lord Jesus said in the OT, he makes full in the NT.

Pia, we have a NEW TESTAMENT which is one TESTAMENT old and new, they are the same ONE TESTAMENT. the reason why the OT is called old is that it's was "BEFORE" our Lord's death on the cross. example the "Old" world is called the "Old" world because it was before the flood. the flood is the focal point in the differentiation of the Old World and the New world to come.

JUST as the old testament is called "old" before the crucifixion of Christ on the cross. the cross is the focal point like the flood in the two different worlds. the cross is the focal point of both TESTAMENTS. both worlds are the same as well as both Testament are the same. but each has a focal point or division.

glory to God, as with the people of old, same today, "WE MUST BELIEVE".

see, a testament is not a covenant, where a covenant requires two parties in a contract. as in a testament, it requires ONE only to believe.

Covenant. Literally, a contract. In the Bible, an agreement between God and his people, in which God makes promises to his people and, usually, requires certain conduct from them.

Testament. A testament is a statement of belief. The most famous testaments are the two parts of the Christian Bible: the Old and New Testaments. A testament states a belief or gives some kind of direction. The document people leave behind at death is known as the "last will and testament."

did one see it, "A testament is a statement of belief". just Read one of the greatest statement of belief in the Bible, see John 20:28. tell me what you think.

PCY.
 
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pia

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see John 20:28. tell me what you think.
This was very well written :)....Yes John 20:28 most certainly is a statement of belief....We also see at an earlier stage, when Jesus asks peter :' Who do you say that I am ", where Peter goes on to speaking the first revelation received by Peter, from above, when he declares :" You are the Son of the Living God.".....
I remember how amazed I was , when I first got a Bible and began to see how much of what was written in the O,T had already been fulfilled in the N.T, as I was shown, but I didn't stay in this fellowship long, as the 'pastor' had some very strange ideas, and I couldn't go along with that, but I did at least get a fairly good introduction to the Bible..
One other way I did see our New Covenant, as a testament, is as we are told that all which is His is now also ours, that we have become joint heirs with Christ, to all in our Father Kingdom, and in the Gospels we can see how Jesus acts and how He speaks to people, and Him being the express image of the Father, we have in those words been left with a blue print of our inheritance....Getting to know how our Father sees us, and what He is prepared to do for us..
 

VictoryinJesus

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I don't see what this has to do with Rev 14.
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1 Timothy 5:24-25
[24] Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Judgement begins at the house of God:
"Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment"

1 Peter 4:12-17
[12] Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. [14] If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye ; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. [15] But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. [16] Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Pick up your cross and follow Him:

Hebrews 13:12-13
[12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Our Lord was trodden without the gate.

Revelation 14:18-20
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

What is the great harvest? Who is it for? Who treads it alone? What comes from the winepress? Is it not fruit reaped?

John 4:35
[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Proverbs 3:9-12
[9] Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: [10] So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. [11] My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord ; neither be weary of his correction: [12] For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Revelation 14:4
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The firstfruits
Paul spoke to Timothy of:

Revelation 14:12-13
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

They have been crucified with Christ and rest in their labours; their works follow them. Whose work is it, since they "rest"?

Galatians 2:20
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Timothy 5:25
[25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Matthew 5:14-15
[14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

"Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." -Faith without works is dead.

James 2:26
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:18
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

They follow the Lamb wherever He goes...He went without the gate to be troddened under foot and glorified the Father in doing so.
 

101G

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This was very well written :)....Yes John 20:28 most certainly is a statement of belief....We also see at an earlier stage, when Jesus asks peter :' Who do you say that I am ", where Peter goes on to speaking the first revelation received by Peter, from above, when he declares :" You are the Son of the Living God.".....
I remember how amazed I was , when I first got a Bible and began to see how much of what was written in the O,T had already been fulfilled in the N.T, as I was shown, but I didn't stay in this fellowship long, as the 'pastor' had some very strange ideas, and I couldn't go along with that, but I did at least get a fairly good introduction to the Bible..
One other way I did see our New Covenant, as a testament, is as we are told that all which is His is now also ours, that we have become joint heirs with Christ, to all in our Father Kingdom, and in the Gospels we can see how Jesus acts and how He speaks to people, and Him being the express image of the Father, we have in those words been left with a blue print of our inheritance....Getting to know how our Father sees us, and what He is prepared to do for us..
yes, this is what a testament is all about, "inheritance". the LAST will and testament.

when one start to see the Bible in its entirety, one will begin to understand the word correctly.

one important thing to note about "inheritance", one must be, got to be "BORN AGAIN". why is this so true? only an ALIVE Son can inherit. dead (sinners) sons cannot.

and to be alive in Christ...... John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

in a nutshell.

we learned John 3:16 from our early conception in the church. now we know it better.

PCY
 
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101G

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interesting how "whosoever" morphs when you look at the original,
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every
yet we still translate this "each person" right
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of.
Yes because the apostle Peter preached on Pentecost, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

I ask you bbyrd009, is God still calling people unto himself even today?. yes or NO

PCY.
 
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bbyrd009

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Yes because the apostle Peter preached on Pentecost, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

I ask you bbyrd009, is God still calling people unto himself even today?. yes or NO

PCY.
ah, well the point there was that we should perceive a more common "you" where we imagine one person or ourselves, and vice-versa, ar least quite often imo. Nations are the sheep and goats, not individuals, etc
 

101G

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ah, well the point there was that we should perceive a more common "you" where we imagine one person or ourselves, and vice-versa, ar least quite often imo. Nations are the sheep and goats, not individuals, etc
true, individuals People make up nations. it all come back the the PERSONAL CALL.

and true ONE in a Family can save the whole Family, but it talks the ONE, the individual.

PCY.
 

bbyrd009

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but it talks the ONE, the individual.
i agree It seems to, yes. We even have "seek your own salvation" etc, so i don't mean that the individual cannot be saved, so much as that individual salvation is what we seek, but God seems to have a diff perspective even here. I'll try to remember some good lectures for this, but obv we interpret "sheep and goats" as individuals when they are not, so this is the concept i'm trying to point to.
 

101G

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i agree It seems to, yes. We even have "seek your own salvation" etc, so i don't mean that the individual cannot be saved, so much as that individual salvation is what we seek, but God seems to have a diff perspective even here. I'll try to remember some good lectures for this, but obv we interpret "sheep and goats" as individuals when they are not, so this is the concept i'm trying to point to.
Ok, my ears are waiting and open. looking to hear it

PCY.
 

bbyrd009

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Ok, my ears are waiting and open. looking to hear it

PCY.
well, i came back to say that we tend to buy what they are selling, namely that the part of us that is supposed to die, daily is the part that might get into some future place called heaven!