Is The Rapture Theory Biblical?

Copperhead said:

Lengthy thread now, and I might have missed someone pointing this out, but while many will dismiss the Rapture as being unBiblical, it is clearly a word and idea expressed in the Bible and not even a theory, but fact.

Well... maybe not an English Bible. But it is in the Latin Bible. The "caught up" of 1Thes 4:17 is Harpazo in the Greek and in the Latin, Rapimier, from which we get our transliterated English word, Rapture. The Latin Vulgate is a recognized authoritative translation of the original manuscripts. It was the earliest of all translations from the Greek. If Jerome had been wrong in using rapimier for the Greek harpazo, there would have been ample critical review over the last 1600 years. But the translation still stands the test of time.

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bc "caught up" is a perfectly acceptable way to express what is a spiritual occurrence, not a literal one. Has someone convinced you to look for a miracle?

There are now three Rapture ( or not) threads going now!! Ha!

May be they seen the ads, statements that I seen ? on the computer ?

bbyrd009 said:

bc "caught up" is a perfectly acceptable way to express what is a spiritual occurrence, not a literal one. Has someone convinced you to look for a miracle?

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Well, the greatest miracle I could have experienced, I have. That of being made righteous to God thru Yeshua. Am I supposed to be looking for another?

As for an idea about the rapture or removal of the righteous, as with any doctrine, I look for the testimony of two witnesses, as is required by the Torah before anything can be established. The two witnesses are the OT and the NT. If the rapture is to be believed as a legitimate concept, it must be established in both the OT and NT. I believe it is, and quite well in the OT.

Which would make sense. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the OT to refer to.

Copperhead said:

Well, the greatest miracle I could have experienced, I have. That of being made righteous to God thru Yeshua. Am I supposed to be looking for another?

As for an idea about the rapture or removal of the righteous, as with any doctrine, I look for the testimony of two witnesses, as is required by the Torah before anything can be established. The two witnesses are the OT and the NT. If the rapture is to be believed as a legitimate concept, it must be established in both the OT and NT. I believe it is, and quite well in the OT.

Which would make sense. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the OT to refer to.

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ah. and what do you make of Ezekiel's "pillows" and "soft landings" then?

I do not see any thing of a rapture in the bible ,,,, any one ?

Grams said:

I do not see any thing of a rapture in the bible ,,,, any one ?

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Check this link to the other thread discussing 5 scriptural references in the Book of Luke, one reference for each post, starting with the OP about Jesus's warning applying to only the believers living in a time NOT descriptive of being in the great tribulation, but rather before it.

Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

Grams said:

I do not see any thing of a rapture in the bible ,,,, any one ?

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Look at a Latin Vulgate and let us know if you still don't see anything in the Bible about a rapture. And while you are doing that, do an etymology study of the word "rapture".

bbyrd009 said:

ah. and what do you make of Ezekiel's "pillows" and "soft landings" then?

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I don't see any correlation. The phylacteries and amulets of women who are involved in idolatrous worship and leading others astray doesn't seem to fit the context of what we are discussing.

Copperhead said:

I don't see any correlation. The phylacteries and amulets of women who are involved in idolatrous worship doesn't seem to fit.

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then why deem them "pillows" or "soft landings," do you think?

I do not see the word Rapture in the KJB.......... no place.....

bbyrd009 said:

then why deem them "pillows" or "soft landings," do you think?

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That is translation, and then, only one. I consulted 12 translations and the Strong's. Pillows is not a common translation among many, some even predating the KJV including the Septuigant. The most common translation of "keset" is amulets, magic charms, phylacteries, etc.

One should always search out words and definitions before basing any kind of doctrine on them.

Grams said:

I do not see the word Rapture in the KJB.......... no place.....

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There is no word "Trinity" in any Bible either but you believe in that "doctrine", because there are scriptures testifying to that teaching, right?

The same can be said for the teaching about the rapture.

The majority of believers that believe in the rapture ( not counting vast amount of believers that do not believe in it ) believe that all christians will be taken, but not so. They forget that Jesus has been warning believers to be ready because many believers will not be ready to go due to loving this life more than Him to not want to go or being found in unrepentant iniquity and thereby disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 5th chapter teaches the church to excommunicate unrepentant brethren so as to not even eat with them in fellowship. As God taught the church to do thru the Holy Spirit in Paul, so will God do at the pre great tribulation rapture for the saints to eat in fellowship in sincerity & truth.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We know that Satan will wage a war on the saints during the great tribulation and so...

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So to avoid being cast into the great tribulation, they are to repent of their spiritual fornication before He comes; thus another evidence of God judging His House first at the rapture in leaving unrepentant saints behind, but He is faithful in doing a good job in keeping the souls of His saints left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

True, the false Messiah will make war with the saints, but that idea does not really support the other idea that some in the ecclesia will be left.

Enoch was a saint. He walked with God and was taken, or raptured. Elijah was a saint and raptured also. It can be supported that those saints that were resurrected immediately after Yeshua was, that they were taken up, or raptured also. Yet, none of these were part of the ecclesia as the body of Messiah. The ecclesia had not become a reality till 7 weeks later. Thus, those saints that the false Messiah wars against may not be of the same group as those in the Body of Messiah as we know it now.

Copperhead said:

That is translation, and then, only one. I consulted 12 translations and the Strong's. Pillows is not a common translation among many, some even predating the KJV including the Septuigant. The most common translation of "keset" is amulets, magic charms, phylacteries, etc.

One should always search out words and definitions before basing any kind of doctrine on them.

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yes, if only you would do that at "rapture" imo-

"The verb הלל (halal I) denotes what lamps and celestial bodies do: shine, emit light (Job 31:26, Isaiah 13:10)...

Halal denotes an exuberance, for whatever reason. It takes no great poetic leap to see symmetry between the shining of a star and the praising of a worshiper, certainly also because in the Bible true believers are compared to stars (Daniel 12:3). Halal denotes a letting go of restraints and inhibitions, and, entirely depending on the heart behind it, can result in either a complete surrender to God's control, or a detrimental flight without anyone at the helm. Halal can turn to either a most holy expression of devotion or else a blasphemous display of derangement.

And whether the act of halal is reckoned positive or negative also depends much on the heart of the spectator. The apostle Paul warns his followers to ease up on a typical halal-expression, namely speaking in tongues, when guests are in the congregation, lest they think the congregants are insane (1 CORINTHIANS 14:23)..." הלל | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Hebrew)

Copperhead said:

That is translation, and then, only one. I consulted 12 translations and the Strong's. Pillows is not a common translation among many, some even predating the KJV including the Septuigant. The most common translation of "keset" is amulets, magic charms, phylacteries, etc.

One should always search out words and definitions before basing any kind of doctrine on them.

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pillow

Strong's Hebrew: 3704. כְּסָתוֹת (keseth) -- a band, fillet
From kacah; a cushion or pillow (as covering a seat or bed) -- pillow.

see HEBREW kacah
Strong's Hebrew: 3680. כָּסָה (kasah) -- to cover

pillows
keceth (keh'-seth)
a cushion or pillow (as covering a seat or bed) -- pillow.to all armholes
'atstsiyl (ats-tseel')
a joint of the hand (i.e. knuckle); also (according to some) a party-wall (Ezek. 41:8) -- (arm) hole, great.
yad (yawd)
a hand (the open one (indicating power, means, direction, etc.),

so i say, woe to the "women" who sew whatever over your arm holes, and "teach you to fly like a bird," ensnaring your soul.

and if you see no relevance to your definition of "rapture," then so be it

Dictionary Definition
h3704. כֶּסֶת ḵeseṯ; from 3680; a cushion or pillow (as covering a seat or bed): — pillow.

AV (2) - pillow 2;
band, fillet, covered amulets, false phylacteries used by false prophetesses in Israel to support their demonic fortune-telling schemes

Ezekiel 13:20 (ESV) “Therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds.

Ezekiel 13:20 (ISV) “‘Therefore, this is what the Lord God says, “Watch out! I’m opposing your amulets with which you hunt souls as one would swat at a flying insect. I’ll tear them off your arms and then deliver those people, whom you’ve hunted like birds.

Ezekiel 13:20 (LITV) So the Lord Jehovah says this: Behold, I am against your amulets with which you are hunting the souls there, to make them fly. And I will tear them from your arms, and will send out the souls, souls which you are hunting, to make them fly.

Ezekiel 13:20 (NASB) Therefore, thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds.

Ezekiel 13:20 (NIV) “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

Ezekiel 13:20 (NKJV) “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Behold, I am against your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds.

Ezekiel 13:20 (TLV) Therefore thus says Adonai Elohim, "Behold, I am against your magic charms with which you hunt people like birds. I will tear them from your arms. I will deliver the people you hunt like birds.

I don't know about you, but most folks do not run around with "pillows" on their arms that need to be torn off. Amulets, magic charms, magic bands, etc fits the context of the passage better, and many translators felt the same way.

Take a look at H3704 that you posted. "Band" is there in that. You might have just overlooked it.

An excellent resource to digging into word studies is the Blue Letter Bible website. It is free and loaded with valuable resources. Orginal Hebrew and Greek texts of the entire Bible, Septuigent version of the OT, Latin Vulgate, word meaning via Strong's, and historical usage of words. The definition I posted above was from my Strong's on my computer, but I confirmed this all by consulting the BLB resources on the word's textual and historical usage.