adultrey or not?

(haanne;39519)
According to scripture, If a man marries and he or his wife commit adultery ,than this is grounds for divorce. But what constitutes adultery? What if the Manwoman re-marry, does this make them and their new spouses adulterers? I heard a sermon on the subject and would love your input...
If someone remarries after divorcing on the grounds of adultery, then I don't see that scripture makes them adulterers. What is adultery? Good question! In the law courts it is factual sexual relationship with a third party. In scripture it is already when the mind even accepts the idea. This is difficult. The temptation, i.e. when the proposition enters the mind, is not adultery. But when the mind accepts the temptation as desirous and without rejecting it, then there is adultery. Thin line, heh? I think most people have been there at some time or other!

Well we have had several debates over this but as far as Im concerned God divorced Israel for her adulterous ways and will take a New Bride in the form of the churchDivorce for any reason is not the unforgivable sin so I see no problem with a person remarrying if they have repented for the sins they comitted during the marriage.This is where it gets tricky most people who divorce blame the other person more than they truly look to themselfs. I have never seen a marriage break up that did not involve two and both must search their heart for their sin in the break up to repentGod says he hates divorce true who does not its very painful but he doesnt say it is unforgivable

(kriss;39548)
Well we have had several debates over this but as far as Im concerned God divorced Israel for her adulterous ways and will take a New Bride in the form of the churchDivorce for any reason is not the unforgivable sin so I see no problem with a person remarrying if they have repented for the sins they comitted during the marriage. This is where it gets tricky most people who divorce blame the other person more than they truly look to themselfs. I have never seen a marriage break up that did not involve two and both must search their heart for their sin in the break up to repentGod says he hates divorce true who does not its very painful but he doesnt say it is unforgivable
It is so refreshing to hear such an understanding view on divorce . I know SO many people living in misery and fear in destructive marriages ONLY because they are too scared of sinning to move out. SO many women put up with beatings just because they don't want to sin against God - it just tears my heart to pieces! I try to tell them that if someone has hit them then they themselves have walked out of their marriage and they don't have to put up with it, but I do not have the conviction of faith to be able to convince anyone of this. Why do we humans have to make life so complicated?

I have seen the same tragic thing kalixxAnd I have explained to these women that they are taking a part in allowing their husbands to continue displeasing God by allowing themseves to go through this I have even seen Husbands truly turn to God and get help when their wives realized even though unwittenly they by staying are enabling the sin to continue so they should not only leave for their sake and the childrens but for the abusers sakeIn Gods eyes if you allow a person to keep sinning by keeping quite or staying you have a part in their sin.

(kriss;39555)
In Gods eyes if you allow a person to keep sinning by keeping quite or staying you have a part in their sin.
I have to agree with you, Kriss, although it is ever so hard for me. My daughter left her partner for this very reason. She is dead now. He put a carving knife through her heart. I find it hard to find God, you know?

I am so sorry as the mother of 3 daughters I can not even imagine your painI do know to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and I am sure she is resting in his loving arms. My prayers go out to you.I wish woman would be come aware they do not have to live with this.

I want to add that I truly believe that God allows his children to come home sometimes rather than the alternative of years of sufferingwe left here find this hard to understand because we miss our loved ones so much. But God knowing the future of things that we can not know allowed her to come home to the saftey of him. Take some comfort that he did not do this to you or to her but rather for her.To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Thankyou Kriss and Haanne.I guess I shouldn't really bring personal things to a discussion thread, but it just kind of "fell out" due to the context here. It seemed right because it underlines that when it comes to the issue of divorce we are not just playing with theoretical academic interpretation of a book. Behind the words there is always a real-life tragedy taking place that often affects very many people in addition to the couple concerned. It is very easy for a preacher to condemn divorce in general from the safety of the pulpit, but if he had to face some of the atrocities that some women go through by trying to "obey God" and stick with a violent and abusive male (and vice versa), then he might find that in real-life it is never so very clear-cut. I recall one woman who threw herself off a balcony and smashed both her legs in order to escape from a drunk husband attacking her with a knfe. It was not until their children's lives also became at risk that she finally left him - and still, for many years, bore the weight of being a sinner because of it. Something here does not ring true to the God of the bible. Could you, Haanne, expand a bit more on what he said in this sermon?

Amen to that Kalixx I agree 100%

(haanne;39679)
Well it was about not giving up in marriage which is a good message if your not in danger . But it was more about how if you divorce and remarry except in the case of death, if you re marry you have commited adultrey because you are still under Gods sanctifacation. After a man and woman have sex they are sealed as one in Gods eyes.
As per usual men talk without truly understanding the whole of Gods word they reduce it to the simplest of forms trying to make it easy without full comprehension, Dont get me wrong here when you make a promise to God you should take it very seriously, You should fight for you marriage with all that you have. And pray to God for guidence,walking away when things get a little tough is wrong,I by no means advocate divorce as the first soulution but only as a last when all else has failed. But to all those good Christains that are divorced or have tried everything in their power or are in abusive relationships you need to know the truthof scriptures NOT MEN Which "Divorce" Does God Hate? Does God Really "Hate Divorce"?A remarriage or to remarry after divorce is the will of God! When God said, "I hate PUTTING AWAY," He NEVER meant divorce, but to SEPARATE. Meaning, divorce was good when needed. God never hated divorce, it was "something" else He hated. To Which Situation Did God Say, "I Hate Putting Away (Divorce)?" We have heard this Scripture: “the Lord God of Israel says that HE HATES DIVORCE” (Malachi 2:16). This is almost always quoted as if God hates all divorces in general. But that’s just not true. We have previously read from the Bible books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Deuteronomy and 1Corinthians that God is not against divorce. Then why all the confusion concerning why God said that “He hates divorce?” The reason for the confusion is because there are TWO “kinds” of marriages and TWO “divorces” being mentioned in the Malachi 2:11-16 passage. The “divorces” were not official divorces; they didn’t need to be. They were already previously married and “unofficially” married again. The Hebrew word shalach means “putting away”― a separation, as correctly translated in most Bibles. However, the King James and a number of newer versions have incorrectly translated shalach as to mean: divorce. It never meant divorce and it doesn’t mean divorce. The word was most likely translated as “divorce” to fit what was taught in the church. Shalach is just a common word used throughout the Old Testament which means to: go, separate or to send. That’s it! So why did God angrily say that He “…hated putting away [a separation]?” “…Because you have not kept My ways [concerning marriage, divorce and remarriage] but have SHOWN PARTIALITY IN THE LAW” (Malachi 2:9). The Law specifically stated that when a man got a divorce from his wife that he was to write “…her a CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE, put it in her hand, AND [shalach] send her out [put her away]…” (Deuteronomy 24:1). God also commanded them not to marry anyone who did not serve him ― who served a foreign god (See Nehemiah 13:25-30). Instead, men separated from their wives without ever giving them a Certificate of Divorce and then illegally married someone else. This is why the Lord said that they were still “their wife by covenant.” The marriage covenant had never been dissolved by the Divorce Certificate.“The Lord’s holy institution which He loves...the Lord has been witness between you and the wife of your youth ...[and] SHE [STILL] IS YOUR COMPANION AND YOUR WIFE BY COVENANT. For the Lord God of Israel says that He hates divorce [shalach], [separating without a Certificate of Divorce].... He has [illegally] married the daughter of a foreign god. May the Lord cut off ...the man who does this being awake and aware” (Malachi 2:11,12a,14b,c,16a).Because these men had remarried illegally ― separated from their wives without giving them a Certificate of Divorce, they were in adultery as Jesus stated: “Furthermore it has been said, “Whoever PUTS AWAY [separates from {apoluo}] his wife, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE. But I say to you that whoever PUTS AWAY [separates and remarries without being divorced from] his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery: and whoever marries a woman who is PUT AWAY [separated without being divorced {apoluo}] commits adultery” (Matthew 5:31-32). (The Lord never forgot about the Malachi incident when He came to earth to redeem lost man). The Old Testament Hebrew word shalach and the New Testament Greek word apoluo are equivalent which will be discussed later. Because these disobedient men still had “un-divorced” wives, the Lord did not command them to give their illegal wives a Certificate of Divorce, rather, they simply had to “separate, put them away, [shalach].” SO DID GOD HATE DIVORCE? NO! RATHER, GOD HATED THAT THE HUSBANDS WERE SEPARATING FROM THEIR WIVES WITHOUT GIVING THEM A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE WHICH WOULD ENABLE THEM TO GET REMARRIED. THIS IS WHAT GOD HATES! The men of Israel were SEPARATING from their wives for self-gratifying reasons. God Himself was a “witness” at their original marriage ceremony which was still in effect. The marriage covenant was never dissolved by a Certificate of Divorce. The men remarried outside their own culture (race) and tribe. God considered the children they bore unholy because of the mixed marriages bringing curses into their families (See Ezra 9:1,2, Nehemiah 13:26-30). Because of these unauthorized marriages, the Word of God came to Ezra and Nehemiah to have the men and women of Israel who had done this thing, to separate from their spouse and even from their children (See Ezra 9:1, 11-12, 10:3, Nehemiah 13:23-27). In this situation, God’s command was to “put them away, separate yourselves from them!” This was NOT the kind of marriage to which God was saying, “I hate divorce!” He was saying loudly, “Get out of these wrong marriages!”

Divorce is NOT sin! It's the motive behind divorce that makes it sin.A divorce from a bad marriage is God's love to you. God is for remarriage and wants you to have a good marriage, not a bad marriage! Is it the Method or the Motive Behind the Method?Does God hate divorce because of divorce itself, or does He hate the perverted motive that men use behind this method to save?There is both a right or wrong motive and attitude behind every action. It is no different with divorce. For example, the tenth commandment says, “You shall not covet...” (Exodus 20:17). Is this something that God hates? Sure it is. But is it the things themselves that we covet that are wrong, such as nice clothes, a good car, a decent place to live, healthy food to eat, or is it the motive that says, “I want what you have?”Proverbs 6:16-19 mentions things the Lord hates, such as:“a proud look.” Is it the “look” that’s wrong, or the perverted motive that exalts self behind the look?“a lying tongue.” Is it the “spoken words” that are bad or the heart motive to cover up truth?“hands that shed innocent blood.” Is it the “act of self defense” by killing another person, or the manifestation of hate to murder for selfish motive?“one who sows discord among brethren.” Is it the “sowing of seeds,” or is it that the seeds are seeds of division instead of seeds of unity?Does God hate divorce when it is used to save one or both of the spouses out of a dying marriage so they can get a new start with Him? Or does God hate divorce when the motive comes from a heart that is self-seeking — wanting to push aside the marriage partner He gave them, for “something better.” (See Malachi 2:11-16) There is a Divorce that God Approves of and One He HatesThe divorce that God approves of is one of His major surgical procedures to save the people of the marriage (but not necessarily the marriage itself). But it has been turned into something detestable and abhorred. And because of this, many husbands and wives will live life with no joy, dead hearts, and guilt from not divorcing just to save the marriage, but themselves being lost because they were kept from a surgical operation they so desperately needed. Instead of attempting to save the people of the marriage, we want to save the marriage, and forget about the ones who make up the marriage. That’s like trying to save a burning building and not caring to rescue the people who work in the building. Do we save the people of the marriage, or do we save the marriage itself for the sake of the marriage? GOD’S FIRST PRIORITY IS THE INDIVIDUAL, AND THEN THE INSTITUTION THESE INDIVIDUAL’S MAKE UP. If we try to save the marriage, we will probably lose the couple. But if we try to save the couple first, we have a very good chance to save the marriage, but more importantly, we will save one or both of the couple. When people say, “God hates divorce” as quoted from Malachi 2:16, normally that has been taught to mean that divorce is not allowed AT ALL. We shall see that this is only a half-truth.In Jeremiah the eighth chapter, Jeremiah mourns over the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The Lord gave them a warning through the prophet in verses 4-22. In verse 5, it says that they were “...in a perpetual backsliding [condition]” and in verse 9 that “...they have rejected the Word of the Lord.” Our wrong motives and attitudes will always reject “the Word of the Lord.”Because their motives and attitudes toward God and people were so bad, God said in verse 10, “Therefore I WILL GIVE THEIR WIVES TO OTHERS, AND THEIR FIELDS TO THOSE WHO WILL INHERIT THEM.” Notice God’s attitude concerning the marriage. The marriage itself was not first priority, but second. God did not save the marriage, but broke it up because of their continual disobedience. There is a curse that actually comes upon the marriage relationship because of continual disobedience to God. (See Deuteronomy 28:30). For He said, “...I will give their wives to OTHERS...” (Jeremiah 8:10a). “Others” means other marriage partners. Remember: GOD’S PRIORITY IS TO SAVE THE PEOPLE OF THE MARRIAGE, NOT NECESSARILY THE MARRIAGE ITSELF. God is the one who broke these marriages up. I believe that the husbands were just as cruel to their wives as they were to the Lord. God didn’t even ask the husbands for a Divorce Certificate. He just had another country come and take over. DIVORCE ITSELF IS NOT WHAT GOD HATES, BUT THE “WHY,” AND “HOW COME” BEHIND THE DIVORCE.This is Wisdom

As others, it is hard to imagine going through what Kalixx had to with daughter...hard to imagine how a person could survive it and come out alive and/or sane. Another thought...for someone who says they can't find God, you sure do possess some understanding, wisdom and heart, that has shadows of the Greater Love.As a testimony to God's mercy, forgiveness, and also to the fact that we are saved by Grace and rewarded by God's Grace and not according to our sins when our sins are covered...or when we also judge ourself first and spare ourselves God's chastisement...I was the one to leave in my first marriage...and as I've said from a life of Ministry which I loved passionately, which I lost with the marriage...and I've said, for 7 years of separation...pain, guilt, literal inner torment...praying dying crying...asking God..Why? How can this be? Because I knew God's callings and loved him tremendously and did want to make it work and prayed and tried...and on and on....After these years of being sort of a prodical yet toward the end again very near God...got a prophetic word from this visitng evangelist who I didn't know...one night when I drug my tormented self alone to this church for what? I don't know...seeking God? I was more in pain over losing the ministry and callings...or the fabulous deep walk with God and the passion I had to live for being His and his servant...I loved people...loved the true ministry with a whole heart...the one that meets people on the back streets of life even if no one notices you...God gave me a promise...and an answer in one..."Satan has tried to destroy your family but God is going to restore it." I had no idea how...because could not go back to this marriage for reasons. But I know God's voice and knew this was his voice. Months down the road I met my present husband...some worry and guilt about finalizing the divorce and being involved with someone...confused and worried to death moreso....then I drug my perplexed self crying to this Preacher's house one night...who told me if I married this man I would end up in hell and never preach again. Went home fell acroos bed and sobbed my heart out. Nothing in life was worth losing the ministry calling...I loved God more than even any man. Asked God for the very first time...and as if I was too afraid to ask this question...as if I didn't have a right to...due to guilt..."will I ever preach again?"Exactly 2 weeks later preaching...at a small church revival...a teenage girl got saved...I went away feeling so strongly that I did not stand there alone...and went away totally delivered of 7 years of guilt and "fear" that I had lost everything due to divorce. And really ddep down, I knew God; I knew and have known his great mercy and forgiveness and understanding of human weakness.Shortly after married Phil...God foretold me then gave me 2 more kids in later years...gave me just what I had asked in a very sincere moment...for a real marriage and home/family...because I was still young I told him, and needed a husband and wanted a whole family.Today God continues to fullfill the promises He's told me...some I have yet to fully see...and continues to unfold the visions/dreams he has either put in me or allowed me to have...after satan almost destroyed my whole family again last year...my husband almost died but was healed miraculously...My point...I will never ever ever attempt to judge someone else's shoes, even if I think I have walked in them....God is the Judge, not me...and His judgement to His people is by Love. I don't attempt to justify myself in any of this, but realize my own weakness and failures...even while I realize yes, it always involves 2, not one, but still my job is to recognize my weaknesses not someone else's.But we don't use Grace for an occassion to sin...and this wasn't my motive...I hated the sin, and did suffer for it...as we do suffer from sin...but God loves and has mercy for His people, and instead of condemning them in judgement He chastises them in love so that their latter state will be better or greater than their first.I agree with you all! The hurting and wounded and sick, etc...do not need a hard judge but mercy, forgiveness and compassion...or else they might hate God! Because man misrepresents Him? We underestimate the power of the blood of Christ, and the Love that bought us such deliverance and salvation.God is Love...and that's how we know His Spirit...if such love is present...or in us Kalixx?There is comfort in this...that this here life is somewhat like being an unborn baby...Will the unborn baby deny that there is life after the fetal life? Does the baby think...I love this existence so much and do not believe there is life after it? But "We" know...what life is after birth! And I know that this life here is just like being an unborn baby...the greater life is on the other side of it! People often say or ask....why is it that it takes us a lifetime to learn things: how to be a parent, a good marriage partner, a loving person to all...but shouldn't we learn these things first so we can have a good life? it doesn't make sense.Yes it does...this is a growing season...we are being prepared for a Greater Life! And as Paul...to die is gain...if we meet Jesus on the other side...people do not want to come back! My husband felt the absolute peace and joy of God on the other side...wanted to come back only because of me and baby...otherwise he said he would have preferred to go on in the great joy and peace....Kalixx...there's something in your life that God has invested in you...the pain has not been for nothing...there are always great purposes in God in all things, and peculiarly in the most hard and painful things the most. You may not yet see or have found all that there is for you to see and find...but it is so visible that there are things...you have purposes you have not seen yet...and also understanding for many things in your life. You understand God in many ways...and not just theologically....you either do not realize that He has been with you, or you are holding something back...I encourage you to not give up...to not take the hard heart alternative to not seeing God answer you in the way we humans will that he should or would...I have learned that self pity is not how I am going to win...and I've tried it! But rather a broken and contrite spirit god will not despise. Don't leave the post with a hard heart or one so hurt that it becomes hard...but "Believe"....even if you make your bed in hell....like loving a lover...so greatly and selflessly....determine to Love the Lord your God despite anything!I believe the time will come when your heart and life will be ignited. There is great reward if we Believe and persist and do good and faint not...God "Is" Love...and we find him "in love"...not in any theology or hardness of heart...and any presence of human pride drives His spirit away....but the broken man He floods His heart with His unspeakable Grace and love..."Grace is given where it's needed." Do you think He was not with you so that you lived and didn't die when this happened to your daughter? Who caused you to love instead of hate then? Who kept you from destroying yourself? How can a man who had so much taken from him...such a knife in the heart...not hate life and people...and God....but turn to giving himself for people by the love of God?God help me...my rambling! What's in your heart is far greater than what's in your mind! And if pain is keeping it from really coming out...instead of turning your back on God...surrender all the pain and I bet there is pain! Even hidden...buried! It's surrender Kalixx...and yes you've done it before...but do it again...be like Jacob...wrestle until you get your answer and don't let go until then! It's worth to "good fight of faith"....well worth it! You will see...if you dont' faint or give up................siskim

I usually get involved, but I'm staying out of this one.

(kriss;39714)
As per usual men talk without truly understanding .....
Hmmmm....... perhaps me too ..thought about it, came and edited my post to say, (and as a male I guess I have the right ) that I think you're probably right....

(haanne;39519)
According to scripture, If a man marries and he or his wife commit adultery ,than this is grounds for divorce. But what constitutes adultery? What if the Manwoman re-marry, does this make them and their new spouses adulterers? I heard a sermon on the subject and would love your input...
Your explanation needs to be clearer so that we can understand the entire situation.Matthew 5:32, "But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery.And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."Where does the person you have in mind fit in this picture?Mark 10:11, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her hesband and marries another, she commits adultery."That's God's word on the subject as you can clearly see expressed in the above quotes.waynemlj

This has always been a fascinating topic to me. It is so hard to write in stone what should be done in every situation, because there are some situations like Kalixx mentioned, when it's life or death. I would never tell anyone who is being abused they must stay and take it. I think it's inhumane the way some women and children are treated. I have seen abuse turned the other way around as well. I've seen wives that have abused their husband-verbally. This is totally unacceptable too. I think we almost have to go on a case-by case basis here. The Lord is the only one who knows our motives for wanting out of a marriage. I know He won't honor someone looking for a way to break their vows, trying to manipulate the situation. I think someone who is in this situation must sit themselves down with God's Word and spend some quality time praying each day. They must commit to Christian counseling. They must commit to being a faithful follower of Christ and be willing to listen to cd's on marriage or read books about this; any resource that can help them to see it from God's perspective. You see, I can say that, because I have walked this road. It's tough. I can say one thing that helps when it stings so bad that you feel you are at the end of your rope is to STOP, PRAY, AND SAY, " Lord, I can't handle this today. I am putting this into Your Hands. They are strong enough, big enough, and You are more than capable of dealing with this. You are fair. You see the whole picture. You are a great God. You are working everything out for my good and Your glory. Be glorified in my life. Show yourself through me. May I be a witness of how you can work things out no matter how dark the storm may look." Then, truly release it. Don't think about it. Go on about your day doing things for others and thinking upon how good Christ is to you by providing your needs here on earth and thinking about that beautiful room He's making for you in heaven. It will change your life. The grass is not greener on the other side. It still has to be mowed! It's just a different kind of grass that still has some weeds. Take off the rose-colored glasses and you'll see them. Focus on the good things your mate does and good qualities he/she has. I am not saying take physical abuse or anything that God cannot honor. I'm talking about things you can absolutely deal with. We are stronger through Christ than we give ourselves credit for.

I'm going to have to admit this...I am not the one that likes to talk ahead of time for something I don't know very well...I still got so much to learn... sometimes I believe common sense don't hit me as hard as I wanted it to do, otherwise how can I know true wisdom? Perhaps everybody has a different speed of learning...JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.