The thief on the cross !?

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Copperhead

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You just did.

Oh, I don't think so. A look up of many definitions regarding purgatory and they specifically suggest it is a place of purification or cleansing of unrighteousness, which includes some sort of suffering and expiating sins from the person. As if there is a second chance at salvation. Paul makes it clear that judgement is what awaits us after death. Not some sort of second shot at getting it right.

Of course, if one plays semantic games with a definition of purgatory, then just about any presupposition is possible.

I sure didn't see that regarding Lazarus in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. Lazarus was comforted and provided for with no hint that he needed to expiate any sin. Whereas the rich man was undergoing suffering, not to purify him, but in waiting for the final casting into outer darkness when Hades is cast into the lake of fire. Both of their fates were sealed.
 

epostle1

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Oh, I don't think so. A look up of many definitions regarding purgatory and they specifically suggest it is a place of purification or cleansing of unrighteousness, which includes some sort of suffering and expiating sins from the person. As if there is a second chance at salvation. Paul makes it clear that judgement is what awaits us after death. Not some sort of second shot at getting it right.
Purgatory is not a second chance at salvation, they are all saved. You have been misinformed.

Of course, if one plays semantic games with a definition of purgatory, then just about any presupposition is possible.
I Corinthians 3:10-15 is not a presupposition.

I sure didn't see that regarding Lazarus in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. Lazarus was comforted and provided for with no hint that he needed to expiate any sin. Whereas the rich man was undergoing suffering, not to purify him, but in waiting for the final casting into outer darkness when Hades is cast into the lake of fire. Both of their fates were sealed.
There is no verse saying the rich man went to hell. There is no explaining how the rich man could have compassion on his brothers, because compassion requires God's grace, that does not exist in hell. There is no "waiting place" for hell, not even in Jewish theology. I submit the definitions you found are biased and erroneous.

Do devout Jews believe in purgatory?

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #1: Purgatory (Mt 12:32)

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #2: Purgatory (Lk 23:43)
 

Marymog

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you do not even interpret me correctly so what about scriptures even pleading inspiration via the Holy Spirit does not seem to help - death is only for Christians - so non Christians after a period in Limbo will be born again as little Christian/Catholic children who will simply simply believe as required - twinc
You believe that non Christians will be born again as little Christian/Catholic children?

Are you talking about re-incarnation?

Curious Mary
 
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Copperhead

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Purgatory is not a second chance at salvation, they are all saved. You have been misinformed.

I Corinthians 3:10-15 is not a presupposition.

There is no verse saying the rich man went to hell. There is no explaining how the rich man could have compassion on his brothers, because compassion requires God's grace, that does not exist in hell. There is no "waiting place" for hell, not even in Jewish theology. I submit the definitions you found are biased and erroneous.

Do devout Jews believe in purgatory?

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #1: Purgatory (Mt 12:32)

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #2: Purgatory (Lk 23:43)

I can say in essence the same thing about your assertion. That they are based on bias and erroneous. Doesn't make either of us right or either of us wrong. Frankly, I don't really waste a lot of time on side issues like this to put a lot of thought into it. Takes too much time away from what truly is important. And what devout Jews think about it or Norm Geisler thinks about it has about as much weight with me as what you or anyone else thinks about it. The topic just doesn't rate in the top 10 of things I put a lot of effort into grappling with.

But I did look up the word "purgatory" both online and in several books, and what they described as what purgatory is doesn't fit with what I see in the Rich Man and Lazarus account. I can only go on what the general consensus is as to what purgatory is. I had to look it up for a general idea of the issue because I could really care less about it. I know in whom I trust and the relationship I have with Him.
 
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epostle1

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I can say in essence the same thing about your assertion. That they are based on bias and erroneous. Doesn't make either of us right or either of us wrong. Frankly, I don't really waste a lot of time on side issues like this to put a lot of thought into it. Takes too much time away from what truly is important. And what devout Jews think about it or Norm Geisler thinks about it has about as much weight with me as what you or anyone else thinks about it. The topic just doesn't rate in the top 10 of things I put a lot of effort into grappling with.

But I did look up the word "purgatory" both online and in several books, and what they described as what purgatory is doesn't fit with what I see in the Rich Man and Lazarus account. I can only go on what the general consensus is as to what purgatory is. I had to look it up for a general idea of the issue because I could really care less about it. I know in whom I trust and the relationship I have with Him.
Tell 'ya what. I won't make straw men fallacies about what you believe if you don't make them about purgatory. Did you check the general consensus of the Early Church Fathers? OK, so it is not a priority for you, but "As if there is a second chance at salvation" is a falsehood. You want the truth, not falsehoods.

The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of Original Sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.

Protestants falsely argue that Purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original Sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If Purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then Original Sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if Original Sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must Purgatory be accepted.

Thus Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism.​

Read more here.
 

DPMartin

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Tell 'ya what. I won't make straw men fallacies about what you believe if you don't make them about purgatory. Did you check the general consensus of the Early Church Fathers? OK, so it is not a priority for you, but "As if there is a second chance at salvation" is a falsehood. You want the truth, not falsehoods.

The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of Original Sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.

Protestants falsely argue that Purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original Sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If Purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then Original Sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if Original Sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must Purgatory be accepted.

Thus Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism.​

Read more here.


nope you seek to justify Catholicism and the protestants did selectively throw off what Catholics preach as "Sacred Tradition may also be loosely defined as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Eyewitnesses communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians"

people used to do all kinds of things in the name of Christianity or the catholic church and still do to day that are horrendous acts, does that justify that you should do that same? is it sacred because now its a "tradition"? what excuse is that?

the tell is simply you are justifying Catholicism where as the bible itself need no justification what so ever does it? the Truth need no justification but Catholicism does, because Catholics are always justifying its entitlement to rule Christianity.


also the catholic church is a state sponsored religion that lost its influence with the masses during the protestant movement and then began to loss its influence with the states of Europe and when they excommunicated queen Elisabeth the mother of king James, influence with the states went down like dominoes. the catholic church at that time was so brazen they thought themselves to be an authority to prosecute civil law within the jurisdiction of the states, nope, didn't happen any more.


so that authority you and many of your friends like to beat everyone else over the head with, is bogus has no meat, not power, no juice because the world around the catholic church finally had enough of the fake Christianity, used for world power and influence. now the only state sponsoring the catholic church, giving it the authority to rule Christendom or the Christian religion, is the Vatican. for a very good reason.
 
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Copperhead

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And basing doctrinal positions on what the early church did is a minefield if there ever was one. The Church couldn’t even get thru the first century before it was messing up pretty significantly. The NT shows a lot of it. And the report card given to those seven churches in Revelation leaves a pretty vivid picture. They couldn’t even get the basics down in most cases. And the letters to the Corinthians are like they were written to Californians in our present time.
 

epostle1

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I merely pointed out an error on your part with no malice intended and you reply with a temper tantrum. You throw a rant at me with 6-7 false histories. When you are ready to discuss one at a time, I'll be here. But I insist on scholarly documentation, not the lunacy you find on you tube and anti-Catholic sites that you seem to have gobbled up.
I answered a similar rant with a rant of my own, and no one has replied to it. See post #114-116. It's relevant to this discussion.
 
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epostle1

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nope you seek to justify Catholicism and the protestants did selectively throw off what Catholics preach as "Sacred Tradition may also be loosely defined as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Eyewitnesses communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians"

people used to do all kinds of things in the name of Christianity or the catholic church and still do to day that are horrendous acts, does that justify that you should do that same? is it sacred because now its a "tradition"? what excuse is that?

the tell is simply you are justifying Catholicism where as the bible itself need no justification what so ever does it? the Truth need no justification but Catholicism does, because Catholics are always justifying its entitlement to rule Christianity.

also the catholic church is a state sponsored religion that lost its influence with the masses during the protestant movement and then began to loss its influence with the states of Europe and when they excommunicated queen Elisabeth the mother of king James, influence with the states went down like dominoes. the catholic church at that time was so brazen they thought themselves to be an authority to prosecute civil law within the jurisdiction of the states, nope, didn't happen any more.

so that authority you and many of your friends like to beat everyone else over the head with, is bogus has no meat, not power, no juice because the world around the catholic church finally had enough of the fake Christianity, used for world power and influence. now the only state sponsoring the catholic church, giving it the authority to rule Christendom or the Christian religion, is the Vatican. for a very good reason.
All opinion, no scholarly documentation.
See post #114-116.
 

GodsGrace

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I can say in essence the same thing about your assertion. That they are based on bias and erroneous. Doesn't make either of us right or either of us wrong. Frankly, I don't really waste a lot of time on side issues like this to put a lot of thought into it. Takes too much time away from what truly is important. And what devout Jews think about it or Norm Geisler thinks about it has about as much weight with me as what you or anyone else thinks about it. The topic just doesn't rate in the top 10 of things I put a lot of effort into grappling with.

But I did look up the word "purgatory" both online and in several books, and what they described as what purgatory is doesn't fit with what I see in the Rich Man and Lazarus account. I can only go on what the general consensus is as to what purgatory is. I had to look it up for a general idea of the issue because I could really care less about it. I know in whom I trust and the relationship I have with Him.
Hi Copperhead,
Just sitting here, tired, reading through.

Your conversation with Kepha is interesting because you're both right!

Your right with the idea that purgatory is a place of cleansing and purification. The CC believes we need to be perfect before going to heaven so purgatory takes care of any lingering sin.

Kepha is right because he stated that purgatory is NOT a second chance. There are only two places to go after death: Heaven or hell.
Those in purgatory are on their way to heaven, they are saved and being purified.

Although 1 Corinthians could be argued, I do believe that Luke 16 is not about purgatory but Abraham's Bossom.

My two cents...
 

DPMartin

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All opinion, no scholarly documentation.
See post #114-116.

the protestant revolt is very well documented and the history between England and the Vatican in King James' day is also well documented, of which I'm not going to read to you. there is a book out there about Sr Edward Coke that just might enlighten you to the history.

the same priest that was involved and prosecuted for an attempt to blow up parliament while in session was canonized (made saint) by the Pope when Hitler went to war with England. that is how deranged and embittered the Vatican is. and people like you get on sites like this all the time and express that same rancid bitterness to anyone who might bring opportunity.

so you can stick you head back in the sand and not face the truth about what you place your faith in.
 

epostle1

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the protestant revolt is very well documented and the history between England and the Vatican in King James' day is also well documented, of which I'm not going to read to you. there is a book out there about Sr Edward Coke that just might enlighten you to the history.
Objective and unbiased, no doubt. His book was written somewhere between 1552-1634 Cook was a judge, not a historian. Let's take a look at DOCUMENTED events around the time that concerns you so much.
Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution (all citations from Protestation and secular historians)

CATHOLIC MARTYRS OF THE ENGLISH “REFORMATION” (SO-CALLED)
[1375 martyrs of Protestant tyranny documented in four papers]

St. Thomas More: Noble Heroism Amidst Treachery [1991] *

Martin Luther’s Reactions to the Deaths of Zwingli, St. Thomas More, and St. John Fisher [11-30-07; posted to Facebook on 2-2-17]

161 English and 269 Irish Catholic Martyrs During the Reign of the Tyrant Henry VIII: 1534-1544 [at the Very Least: 430 Martyrs] [2-6-08] *

312 English Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors During the Reign of Queen Elizabeth (“Bloody Good Queen Bess”): 1558-1603 [2-8-08] *

123 English Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors in the Post-Elizabethan Era: 1603-1729 (+ 66 English Martyrs of Unknown Dates / Martyr Resources) [2-16-08] *

444 Irish Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors, Persecuted by English Royalty, Anglicans, Cromwellians, Etc.: 1565-1713 [2-27-08]
*
Discussion on Whether the English Revolution (aka “Reformation”) was a “Terrorist” Campaign [Facebook, 9-16-14]

English Protestant Penal Laws and Extraordinary Persecution of Catholics: 1559-1829 [3-10-08] *

That's called documenting sources. You should try it sometime.
the same priest that was involved and prosecuted for an attempt to blow up parliament while in session was canonized (made saint) by the Pope when Hitler went to war with England. that is how deranged and embittered the Vatican is. and people like you get on sites like this all the time and express that same rancid bitterness to anyone who might bring opportunity.
Does this alleged priest have a name? I'm sure your "source" can invent one. This story is completely new to me. Whose parliament and when? Where? This looks like typical anti-Catholic gibberish.
.
From the Jewish Virtual Library:
The Vatican & the Holocaust: 860,000 Lives Saved - The Truth About Pius XII & the Jews

HITLER’S PLAN TO KIDNAP (or kill)THE POPE

More Proof of Hitler’s Plan to Kill Pius XII

PIUS XII, JOHN XXIII, AND THE NEWLY-OPENED ARCHIVES

THE JEWISH COMMUNITY SHOULD RETHINK ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD PIUS XII

so you can stick you head back in the sand and not face the truth about what you place your faith in.
It's obvious what you place your faith in.
 

DPMartin

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Objective and unbiased, no doubt. His book was written somewhere between 1552-1634 Cook was a judge, not a historian. Let's take a look at DOCUMENTED events around the time that concerns you so much.
Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution (all citations from Protestation and secular historians)

CATHOLIC MARTYRS OF THE ENGLISH “REFORMATION” (SO-CALLED)
[1375 martyrs of Protestant tyranny documented in four papers]

St. Thomas More: Noble Heroism Amidst Treachery [1991] *

Martin Luther’s Reactions to the Deaths of Zwingli, St. Thomas More, and St. John Fisher [11-30-07; posted to Facebook on 2-2-17]

161 English and 269 Irish Catholic Martyrs During the Reign of the Tyrant Henry VIII: 1534-1544 [at the Very Least: 430 Martyrs] [2-6-08] *

312 English Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors During the Reign of Queen Elizabeth (“Bloody Good Queen Bess”): 1558-1603 [2-8-08] *

123 English Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors in the Post-Elizabethan Era: 1603-1729 (+ 66 English Martyrs of Unknown Dates / Martyr Resources) [2-16-08] *

444 Irish Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors, Persecuted by English Royalty, Anglicans, Cromwellians, Etc.: 1565-1713 [2-27-08]
*
Discussion on Whether the English Revolution (aka “Reformation”) was a “Terrorist” Campaign [Facebook, 9-16-14]

English Protestant Penal Laws and Extraordinary Persecution of Catholics: 1559-1829 [3-10-08] *

That's called documenting sources. You should try it sometime.
Does this alleged priest have a name? I'm sure your "source" can invent one. This story is completely new to me. Whose parliament and when? Where? This looks like typical anti-Catholic gibberish.
.
From the Jewish Virtual Library:
The Vatican & the Holocaust: 860,000 Lives Saved - The Truth About Pius XII & the Jews

HITLER’S PLAN TO KIDNAP (or kill)THE POPE

More Proof of Hitler’s Plan to Kill Pius XII

PIUS XII, JOHN XXIII, AND THE NEWLY-OPENED ARCHIVES

THE JEWISH COMMUNITY SHOULD RETHINK ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD PIUS XII

It's obvious what you place your faith in.



you really are a nut job, you know this don't you? are you off your med's or something?

again what I have told I have read and told you where i read it, and no I'm not going to get into a who's books are better then who's peeing match with you. grow up will ya. its common as dirt the things the catholic church did no matter how much you might find what paints a different picture.

and so what on WWII the allies rescued the Jews from the camps and were bleeding all the way there, the allies set forth the state of Israel that the Jews might be restored to their land, and they are not some "church" or "religion" like the catholic church, of which the catholic church had power to do for the Jews for better than a thousand years, explain that one. and the Jews who do have the history will also be glad to tell you just how the catholic church was towards the Jew before WWII for better than 1500 years.

come on tell use how wonderful the catholic church is how rapping children was swept under the rug at the highest levels, and we all should trust the magisterium of the catholic church.


your giving us the believe you and not our lying eyes routine, not working.
 

epostle1

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you really are a nut job, you know this don't you? are you off your med's or something?

again what I have told I have read and told you where i read it, and no I'm not going to get into a who's books are better then who's peeing match with you. grow up will ya. its common as dirt the things the catholic church did no matter how much you might find what paints a different picture.
The only thing you gave me was the name of the author. I had to look up the rest myself. Documentation from any qualified person is done to avoid opinions, and I cite Protestant experts when ever I can find them. There are lots of those on the links you didn't read.
and so what on WWII the allies rescued the Jews from the camps and were bleeding all the way there, the allies set forth the state of Israel that the Jews might be restored to their land, and they are not some "church" or "religion" like the catholic church, of which the catholic church had power to do for the Jews for better than a thousand years, explain that one. and the Jews who do have the history will also be glad to tell you just how the catholic church was towards the Jew before WWII for better than 1500 years.
On a Jewish site, it states 860,000 Jewish lives were saved thanks to the efforts of the Vatican. It's already posted with a link. But that's not good enough for anti-Catholics.
come on tell use how wonderful the catholic church is how rapping children was swept under the rug at the highest levels, and we all should trust the magisterium of the catholic church.
The "highest levels" met with victims, and the sex abuse crisis has been effectively dealt with. You can't say the same for Protestant churches. THAT problem hasn't gone away. If you want a pointless rock throwing contest, I'll give you one.
your giving us the believe you and not our lying eyes routine, not working.
Asking for documentation is not about lying eyes, it's about gathering objective data to avoid subjective opinions. You don't document anything, you just rant unsubstantiated hate. Find a Protestant historian with a legitimate Ph.D. and I'll take you seriously. But no Protestant historian teaches your garbage. If you are going to hold the Church today accountable for the sins of her forefathers, then you have to hold Protestants today accountable for the sins of the reformers. This is just as absurd as you scouring wickedpedia for antiquated weapons to hurl against a Church that just wants to help people.

Demonizing the Church is not rational. The Bible never does that. You do it because it is a man made tradition.

THE-_LARGEST-_CHARITABLE-_INSTITUTION.jpg


DPMartin, which of these would you burn down first?​
 
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BreadOfLife

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I believe all are already forgiven, we are all reconciled and the only thing to do is just believe in His Son. The other thief did not believe. It is only when someone believes on Jesus they are made righteous and will have eternal life.

Colossians 1:20, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Romans 3:22, This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

John 17:3, Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
All have been redeemed (paid for). We are only forgiven when we repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38).

The Bible tells us that "even the demons believe" and tremble.
Are they forgiven?? Nope.

Jesus says that NOT everyone who cries out to Him is saved - but ONLY the one who does the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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how did he make it to Paradise - notice how scripture has been misinterpreted here to try and justify the wrong interpretations of other scriptures - twinc
Matthew 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

When Christ was 'on earth' He had been given the power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the penitent thief. The thief would have made it to paradise having had his sins forgiven. It's also important to note that the thief is NOT an example of how one today under Christ's NT gospel is saved.
 
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Triumph1300

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All have been redeemed (paid for). We are only forgiven when we repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38).

The Bible tells us that "even the demons believe" and tremble.
Are they forgiven?? Nope.

Jesus says that NOT everyone who cries out to Him is saved - but ONLY the one who does the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

Well I don't agree with a lot you are posting.
But this one is dead on.

People love to forget the repent part.
They think just believing Jesus walked the earth saves them.
I run into these kind of people all the time.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Well I don't agree with a lot you are posting.
But this one is dead on.

People love to forget the repent part.
They think just believing Jesus walked the earth saves them.
I run into these kind of people all the time.
Yup - and some people here actually believe that only the Jews needed to repent - NOT the Gentiles.
This is absolute rubbish.

Glad we can agree on some things . . .