Human Leaders

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zail

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Feb 14, 2008
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I've recently been studying the guidelines of submitting to human leaders. Romans 13:1-7 (to me) says that we're always supposed to submit to them, even though they are also fallen sinners. Romans 13 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. John 10 also contains a picture of a "hireling" figure placed in charge of "the sheep" by Christ, the Good Shepherd. At the same time, I remember exceptions throughout scripture in cases where a law of man commands disobedience to a law of the Lord (bowing to idols/ choosing to worship other gods). Can anyone share some more scriptures to help me develop a full view of this concept of obediance to the men in power? Thanks
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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This is about civil laws we are to give ceasor his due what this all comes down to is God is in control of the Nations we are to follow civil laws God and God alone control the leaders of governments the movements of the nations. Its how God uses the nations and its leaders to bring about his will his prophecys.
 

tim_from_pa

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Jul 11, 2007
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I can imagine Reverend Glistenteeth telling his submissive congregation to submit to martial law. As a matter of fact, for those (apparently) ignorant out there, it is a known fact that the government has been telling the clergy to preach Romans 13 in the event that the constitution has to be dropped. The mindless masses fall for that, too. Otherwise, they are warned, they are being disobedient to the bible.Not really. The law that God established here in the United States hinges on Him and the constitution. When the executioners of the law suspend that God-given constitution, then that is really disobedience to Romans 13. In other words, I am saying to be obedient to Romans 13, one has to disobey the "powers" that be.Yes, God has given every power here on this earth, and since the United States is in prophecy, then it stands to reason that the Government that God wants in place here is by the principle it was founded upon. Instead, I see our constitutional rights being eroded by the day. An excellent example is the anti-constitutional gun confiscation during Hurricane Katrina. The authorities blatantly ignore the Constitution.I don't take too seriously anyone who would quote Romans 13 to justify tyranny. The Christian thing to do, and I say this emphatically, is to go disobey that law and go to prison.
 

His By Grace

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Dec 28, 2007
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So, what do you have to say about Daniel not obeying the petition to refrain from praying to any god other than the king? He disobeyed the decree and continued to pray to the one, true God even though he was thrown to the lions. God must have been honored in this, since He closed the lions' mouths. Also, Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego were disobedient by not bowing to the idol the King said to bow to. They were thrown into the 7-times hotter firey furnace. They were not even singed by the fire! Praise God! Jesus was in the fire with them as well. Also, Queen Esther went against the proposed decree by Naman to get rid of all of the Jews, aking the King for mercy. I think the Bible clearly shows that God's laws come before the laws of the land, but we shouldn't have a problem with man's laws unless the two conflict.
 

His By Grace

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I wanted to add that I meant no sarcasm in my comment, but when I reread it, it sounded a little rude. My apologies. I just wanted to know what you thought about those particular incidents, not that I was trying to say you didn't know about them. Maybe you just hadn't thought about them.
smile.gif
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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I think what God is saying here is we are to follow civil laws not throw away common sense obviously God allows governments at times to be so oppresive thay need to be overthrown and kindles the hearts of those that do so. We are not to throw out the rest of Gods word and worship false gods we have examples of this in scripture.But the aspostles followed Roman law for the most part Jesus didnt try to over throw the saducees and the pharisees.
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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Every world empire from Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar to the final world religious government under Satan in his role as the Antichrist, are ordained or allowed by God. Why would this be? Because they are fulfilling the word of God in prophecy. If Nebuchadnezzar's reign had not existed, then there would have been no government to chastise the House of Judah, when God told the prophets ahead of time that they would be in captivity for seventy years. Daniel wrote us the best example of what God is saying here in Romans. If you operate within the parameters of any civil law within a nation, then that nation must protect your rights for you, to do what it is that you do. As long as it is a legal profession or business. As a Christian we are to respect the authority of the land that we are in, whether as a citizen, or visitor. Daniel was taken as a prisoner to the land of Babylon, and in a few short years he converted king Nebuchadnezzar and became the chief tax collector of the very land that he was captive in. Daniel was in charge of the affairs of the entire Babylonian empire, second only to the king. Why? Because Daniel respected the laws of God that governed civil authority. God's Word tells us that there is no government in existence that God did not allow to be in authority. This is why Ezekiel could say; Libya will be doing this, and Russia would be doing that, and the government in Jerusalem will be doing such and such at the time of the end. God set the governing forces up in each nation, and He put the form of order that would rule. Some of these nations will have a negative purpose to God's plan and some will play a positive part in God's plan, which is His Word. Paul is giving us a doctrinal lecture here as to how we are to get along in our community. We are given instruction in civil matters, as to how we are to conduct ourselves with regard to the laws of our land or the land that we are in. If you follow these instructions, God will bless you. Basically this rule given here works under all governments, especially in the free world. If you obey the laws of the land, then the government of that land is obligated to protect your interest and all the rights that that government offers to it's citizens, or subjects if under a king. When a government exists over a people, that government is ordained by God, or God would cause it to be brought to an end. When a government rises it is ordained by God for a purpose, and when it falls, such as the Soviet Union falling in three days, it will be rebuilt in two weeks or whatever the time frame set by God.
 

His By Grace

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Yes,Kriss, and as usual, a very thorough job! OOOPPS! I said Naman instead of Haman in my post. Another apology! I was hurrying to get to my housework.
 

tim_from_pa

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Jul 11, 2007
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Paul is giving us a doctrinal lecture here as to how we are to get along in our community. We are given instruction in civil matters, as to how we are to conduct ourselves with regard to the laws of our land or the land that we are in. If you follow these instructions, God will bless you. Basically this rule given here works under all governments, especially in the free world.
Exactly, Kriss. What people do not realize is when the constitution is suspended that the executioners of the law themselves are not obeying the established law of the land. If its in the constitution, and laws granted in the states' authority by that constitution, then I have absolutely no problem. However, people gotten so brainwashed these days that they do not recognize what is constitutional from non-constitutional any longer.
 

setfree

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Oct 14, 2007
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I believe we should submit to all authorities-UNLESS- they tell us to do something that is against God. This was the case with Daniel etc. He obeyed God rather than man!
 

Christina

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Apr 10, 2006
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I think thats kind of what he is telling us Setfree It makes me think of Christains that live in Muslem nations they follow the civil laws but still worship Christ even though it sometimes puts them in danger
 

zail

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Feb 14, 2008
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Thanks for giving some input. I agree that obviously we don't obey a law that contradicts one of God's. Other than that, we are supposed to follow the powers allowed/set up by the Lord. I have some more questions though. I think I'm getting an impression that we don't have to obey a government that doesn't obey it's own constitution. Is that what right? Also, does the Bible speak agents submitting to a tyrant? The reason I ask is because I imagine the Pharaoh of Egypt in Moses' day as a tyrant, owning the people of Israel as slaves. Despite this, they didn't rebel as a people but instead submitted to the rules put on them and waited for the Lord to free them. Should we live with a similar mindset, or should we "stand up for our rights" when a government is obviously wrong in our sight (contradictory and/or cruel)? Does the Bible ever give narrative or an instruction to revolt agents a power that makes laws that we don't like, other than (only) those that directly force us to disobey the Lord? A lot of Christians (including me) want to justify doing things that we feel is fair for us to do, which may also break a law of man. Are we ever permitted to do so in scripture? Am I wrong in deciding that I'm allowed to do something that human leaders tell me I can't do, regardless of their integrity in my sight?
 

Catholic Crusader

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Mar 8, 2008
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Hebrews 13:17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.As for Church leaders, the Church is hierarchical. In the Bible we see:Deacon (greek - diakonos / dιάκονος - from the Bible)Priest (greek - presbyteros / pρesßυteρος - from the Bible)Bishop (greek - episkopos / epίsκοpος - from the Bible)This is the hierarchy already described in "Acts", and this in the hierarchy in my Church. Other titles in my Church are honorary. For example, Cardinals are just bishops, but they can vote in a conclave. The pope is actually a bishop too, but since his diocese is Rome, where Peter last ministered, he is the successor of Peter, and therefore "pope". An arch-bishop is just a bishop of a large diocese. But it comes back down to the main three (above).