Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

Taken said:

Christ is Jesus.
Jesus is the Truth.

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Yes but my point is BOTH were alive and UNDER THE OT LAW when Christ promised the thief paradise meaning this is not an example of NT gospel salvation. The NT was not, could not possibly be in effect while Christ remained alive (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Taken said:

Requires belief in ones Heart, In God, In the Lord....

God Knows a mans heart.

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Romans 10:9 a NT belief requires one to believe that God HATH RAISED Christ from the dead. This was not possible for the belief for Christ had not died therefore the thief was NOT under the NT gospel and not accountable to Rom 10:9.

Taken said:

Christ IS Jesus.
Jesus IS the Word of God.
The Word of God, IS the Lamb of God.
The Lamb of God was SLAIN from the foundation of the earth.

Rev 13:8
....of the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the earth.



God promised men would SEE.
However what men SAW had already occurred.

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Romans 6:3-5 requires a person be buried into the death of Christ so then he can walk in newness of life. Again, the thief could not be baptized into the death of Christ whereby he could then walk in newness of life when Christ had not died on the cross. Therefore no one under the OT law was never told to baptized into Christ's death having all sins remitted so they could walk in newness of life because such baptism was not available to them.

Rev 13:8 shows that all of God's plan to redeem man by the death of Christ was already made before the world began and doe not mean Christ tasted physical death before the world began.

Taken said:

OT men, NT men same requirements....Trust and Believe in ones heart;
In God, His Word, His Power, His Spirit.

God Does not Change. He knows a mans Belief in his Heart.

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The same requirements are not possible for those under the OT law did NOT have the blood of Christ to remit all sins totally but only had the blood of bulls and goats that could not totally remit sins. This is why no one under the OT law was commanded to be baptized for remission of sins for such did not exist (Hebrews 9:22) and the NT gospel would not exist until AFTER Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17). Noe was anyone under the NT gospel commanded to offer the blood of bulls and goats for sin. OT and NT are tow different incompatible laws that could not possibly co-exist side by side.

Taken said:

Disagree.

Jesus revealed the thief's belief in his heart...
WHEN Jesus said the THIEF would be WITH Jesus in Paradise.

God Bless,
Taken

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So the thief argument still holds no validity.

Again when Jesus was ON EARTH He had authority to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. But Jesus is NOT on earth today personally forgiving the sins of men apart from men obeying the word. So one can credible claim to be saved just as the thief.

Heb 13:8 said:

Right, in this instance (John 6:54) flesh and blood are figurative language for the finished work of the cross.

Matt 26:26-29 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
God bless

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I'll never understand how a person can ready BOTH John 6 - AND the accounts of the Last Supper - and STILL be so blind.

Where do you get off saying that EATING and DRINKING His flesh and blood are "figurative" of His "finished work" on the cross?? His point in John 6 was so adamant that they must physically EAT Him that most of his followers left Him. As I stated before - John doesn't use the normal word for human eating (Phagon) here - but the word for the way an animal rips apart his food (Trogon).

The early Christians were accused by the Romans of being "cannibals" for their faith in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. They were put to death for their beliefs, including this one - yet there is not ONE SINGLE Early Church writing that denies the belief that the Eucharist was the Body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. As a matter of fact - ALL Early Church writings are UNANIMOUS on this fact. Some of these people, like Ignatius of Antioch sat at the feet of the Apostles and learned about this FIRSTHAND. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John.

WHY is that if, according to YOU - it was just "symbolic"??

Ernest T. Bass said:

The thief has always been a faulty argument

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Hi Ernest. Thank you for your posts. My response is in three parts.

(1.) There were no commas or punctuation in the original Greek text. If you place the comma after "today", how do you see it now in Luke 23:43? Do you see the thief being raised at first resurrection?

(2.) Then Jesus lied, and the thief will not be remembered in the Kingdom. Jesus said, "truly I say to you". Don't you think he meant it? Luke 23:42.

(3.) If belief and confession isn't enough to go to heaven then all those who have believed and confessed on their death bed didn't make it.

God bless

Ernest T. Bass said:

be baptized (Mark 16:16) in order to be saved.

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Being baptized in H2O will not save you any more than sacrificing goats for sin will.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Under the NT obedient works (belief, repentance, confession & submitting to baptism) are necessary to become a Christian. And once one becomes a Christian he must do be active in doing good works God has before ordained Christians to do. Works therefore are both necessary to become a Christian and remain one. No one can become a Christian, be void of good works required by God (Ephesians 2:10) and remain in a saved state. (Matthew 25:31-46).

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Ernest, good works are all about sanctification on earth and rewards in heaven. So many try to mix Grace with works and fail every time. Becoming a Christian and remaining one is about believing and confessing Rom 10:9, and once you get saved you depend on the finished work of the cross and what He did for you, not what you can do for yourself. It's not about you Ernest.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Many have been mislead about obedience to God in thinking is one is working to be obedient he is trying to earn salvation.

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It seems that you're confused even in your own doctrine. If you're adding hell to your doctrine then yes, you are trying to earn salvation. How does a believer unbaptize himself out of Christ death?

Rom 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

BreadOfLife said:

WHY is that if, according to YOU - it was just "symbolic"??

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BOL, the symbolism represents the action that took place, Jesus dying on the cross. When we come to faith in Christ (Rom 10:9) we become a part of His body and also His blood because we believed in the shedding blood of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. We believe what He did on the cross is true, that he died for our sins and rose again on the third day. God bless.

Matt 26:18 He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'"

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 Cor 10:16-17 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

BreadOfLife said:

No - Holy Spirit Baptism comes from BAPTISM.
That's when you are BORN AGAIN:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of WATER AND SPIRIT.

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It means unless you are Baptised born of the water and then when you receive the Holy Spirit then you enter into the Kingdom of God. That's when you are Born again.

Eph.2;
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Of course you have to believe and have faith....... that what happened at the CROSS
was for us...........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Things are different:

Time Past
But Now
Ages to Come

Heb 13:8 said:

Hi Ernest. Thank you for your posts. My response is in three parts.

(1.) There were no commas or punctuation in the original Greek text. If you place the comma after "today", how do you see it now in Luke 23:43? Do you see the thief being raised at first resurrection?

(2.) Then Jesus lied, and the thief will not be remembered in the Kingdom. Jesus said, "truly I say to you". Don't you think he meant it? Luke 23:42.

(3.) If belief and confession isn't enough to go to heaven then all those who have believed and confessed on their death bed didn't make it.

God bless

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These question do not address any of the 3 points I made that prove the thief is NOT an example of NT gospel salvation.

1) all good and bad will be resurrected John 5:29
2) Jesus did not lie
3) The NT gospel does not teach "death bed salvation"

Heb 13:8 said:

Being baptized in H2O will not save you any more than sacrificing goats for sin will.

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The Bible says water baptism is the point God removes sins therefore in that sense the Bible says water baptism saves, John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:1-12; 1 Peter 3L21; etc, etc

Heb 13:8 said:

Ernest, good works are all about sanctification on earth and rewards in heaven. So many try to mix Grace with works and fail every time. Becoming a Christian and remaining one is about believing and confessing Rom 10:9, and once you get saved you depend on the finished work of the cross and what He did for you, not what you can do for yourself. It's not about you Ernest.

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It takes OBEDIENT WORKS in doing what God says is necessary to be saved in believing repenting confession and baptized. Then once one has obeyed and is in a saved state he MUST continue to do goods to maintain that saved position (Eph 2:10)

Heb 13:8 said:

It seems that you're confused even in your own doctrine. If you're adding hell to your doctrine then yes, you are trying to earn salvation. How does a believer unbaptize himself out of Christ death?

Rom 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

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You misunderstand God's grace that God's grace is conditional and requires men to meet the conditions and meeting conditions on a free gift does not, cannot earn the free gift of God. Again, grace charis means favor extended AND favor returned. So grace does NOT mean God extends favor and man in return does nothing for being idle cannot save. Doing no works is the same as being disobedient to God's commands, unrighteousness.

Plenty of Bible examples of God's grace having conditions attached and meeting the conditions did not, could not earn God's free gift:

Exodus 16:
God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna (faith only) then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

2 Kings 5:
God did not owe Naaman anything but because of God's grace He would heal Naaman's disease. Yet this free gift came to Naaman with the condition that he do the work of going and dipping in the Jordan River 7 times. Had Naaman not done the work of dipping (faith only) then he would have maintained his disease. Therefore Naaman must have done the work of dipping in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of dipping earned Naaman nothing.

John 9:
Jesus did not owe the blind man anything but because of His grace Jesus would heal the man's blindness. Yet this free gift came to the blind man with the condition he go and wash in the pool of Siloam. Had the blind man not done the work of going and washing in pool (faith only), he would have remained blind. Therefore the blind man must have done the work of going and washing in order to receive this free gift from Christ yet the work of going and dipping earned him nothing.

Matthew 19:
Jesus did not owe the rich man anything but because of His grace He offered the rich man the free gift of eternal life. Yet this free gift came with conditions of obeying God's commands. The rich man met those conditions except for one...go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. The rich man did not obey, did not do this work of righteousness thereby refusing the free gift that had been offered him. He therefore must have obeyed in order to receive the free gift Christ had offered to him for free yet his obedience in no way would have earned him anything.

Acts 2:
Peter, in his sermon, offered his listeners the free gift of salvation which is a result of God's grace. This free gift came with the condition they call upon the name of the Lord/repent and be baptized, verses 21, 38. Had they not done this work (faith only) they would have remained lost in their unremitted sins. Yet to receive this free gift of God required they conditionally call upon the name of the Lord/repent and be baptized and their obedience in doing this in no way would have earned them God's free gift.

Joshua 6:
God would give the Israelites the city of Jericho as a gift. Yet this free gift came with many conditions including the requirement of the Israelites to march around the city. Had the Israelites done no work (faith only) then they would have not received this free gift of God. Therefore Israel must have obeyed in doing those works in order to receive this free gift of God and doing these works in no way earned them the city.

Jn 6:
Jesus told His hearers He would give (it's free) the gift of everlasting life. Yet this free gift came with the condition of laboring. Had Christ's hearers had done no laboring (faith only) they would not receive this free gift. Therefore they must labor to receive the free gift of everlasting life and their laboring in no way would earned them everlasting life.

Rom 6:
Paul said those Romans had been freed from sin/justified, a free gift of God, v23. Yet this free gift came with the condition of obeying from the heart that form of doctrine. Had they had done no obeying (faith only) they would have remained in their sins/unjustified. Therefore they must have obeyed from the heart in order to receive the free gift of God and obeying in no way earned them God's free gift.


Rev 22:
The waters of life are freely given, a free gift that is made available to all/whosoever. Yet this free gift comes with the condition that one must obey in coming and taking of this water of life. If one does nothing (faith only) he will never get the free gift of the water of life therefore one must do the obedient works in coming and taking of this water and those works in no way earns one this water of life.

Acts 10:
Salvation was a free gift that came to the Gentiles by God's grace. Yet this free gift came with the condition of 'working righteousness', v35. If the Gentiles had done nothing (faith only) they never would have been accepted with God. Therefore the Gentiles must have worked righteousness (obey the command to be water baptized) to be saved yet this working righteousness would earn the Gentiles nothing.

Hebrews 11:7 the saving of Noah's house was by grace but God's grace conditionally required Noah do the work of building the ark. The work in building the ark therefore did not earn the saving of his house. Favor extended, favor returned > charis

Taken said:

Why would there be an issue if a man died in Belief before Christ Bodily died, concerning a mans soul going to Paradise?

God Bless,
Taken

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Jesus had not gone to Heaven yet that's why.
Jesus did not say that the thief did go to Heaven, but said that he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day, that means that the thief was just like any believer, you are in Gods Paradise because you are of Gods people, one has just made the leap of faith and that's all it truly takes and the thief was truly honest in this belief as he put 100% of his faith in that Jesus was who he is.

It's a blessing to truly believe in Jesus Christ.

Taken said:

Both Jesus and the Thief bodily died.
Their bodies were buried in Separate graves.

Both of their departed Living Souls went to Paradise.

Paradise WAS NOT at that time "IN HEAVEN".
Paradise IS where the Tree of Life is.
Paradise was First in the Garden of Eden.
Before Jesus arrived on Earth, the Tree of Life was in (Hades), the Comfort side of Hell, where Abraham's Living Soul and the living souls of the faithful to God were waiting to be redeemed.
After Jesus' living soul arrived in "Paradise" and returned to Earth, imparted back into His body......the Saved Living Souls, were .... along with the Tree of Life taken to Heaven, and now wait there, for their bodies to be redeemed.

It is the Tree of Life that sustains the Saved Living SOUL to have FOREVER LIFE "WITH"

It was IN HADES, the comfort side of hell, that WAS Paradise, and WHERE Jesus WAS WITH the Thief, the Day they Both bodily died.



Amen!
God Bless,
Taken

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Paradise is not in Heaven it's here on earth, as the Bible points this fact out that it was.

When one comes to Christ Jesus, as your Lord and Saviour, you have just made it into Paradise, because your Soul is raptured up in with the Holy Spirit and that thief knew Jesus and who he truly is in fact full on, as did Jesus the same because he knows such in fact.
Now we will still have to deal with all the crap that comes our way sure to be sure but the Holy Spirit elevates us up so we can deal with such on a much higher level than others who are not, because we have faith in Jesus and that's the blessing of paradise, it's wonderful it's Awesome !
Fact is Jesus came to restore this Paradise that was lost to Adam and Eve.

One can now be in the true understanding of 'Judah' (a people of God) 'Abiding' as now the thief was with Jesus at this time.
But the true understanding of 'Israel' (a Servant of God) should be, because one is 'born again' in the Holy Spirit, but this is called a born again Christian, not called Israel nowadays but it is in fact just that, but in the finished work of the NT under Jesus Christ Grace.
As is such with Judah being the people of God being the water baptise Christians.

The Jews were tricked by their so called mob, who were not of the Holy Spirit at all but of mans works and Satan the Golden Calf etc types steering them away from Jesus with every cunning trick they could muster. just as it is nowadays with many trying to deceive you away for Jesus Christ. like they do claiming that the State now named israel is of one and the same name Israel given to Jacob, when in fact it is not. because Jesus is the King of Israel in fact. you can't have two masters can you, so why run to such rubbish.
To say that the State of Israel is Israel, is to reject Jesus Christ in fact, no one could be so stupid!
And idiots are putting their blind faith in mans works with such and all the rapture madness peddled nowadays is Satanic leading people astray from Jesus the only one you must follow.

No where does it claim that the thief went to Heaven, but he was not against Jesus so the door is open to him, but that's not for any of us to say such but he did not go to hell.

Reggie Belafonte said:

It means unless you are Baptised born of the water and then when you receive the Holy Spirit then you enter into the Kingdom of God. That's when you are Born again.

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Jesus said very clearly that we are born again at Baptism. Baptism requires Water.
There is NO getting around this Biblical fact - no matter HOW many times you try . . .

Ernest T. Bass said:

(1) all good and bad will be resurrected John 5:29
(2) Jesus did not lie
(3) The NT gospel does not teach "death bed salvation"

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(1) That's true, but the good and bad are going in two different directions Ernest. (Bema seat and Great White Throne)
(2.) That's right He didn't. Jesus will remember the thief.
(3.) Was not the thief dying on the cross when he believed?

Ernest T. Bass said:

The Bible says water baptism is the point God removes sins therefore in that sense the Bible says water baptism saves, John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:1-12; 1 Peter 3L21; etc, etc

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No, only the blood of Christ saves. You get baptized in H2O without belief in your heart, and all you'll be is a cliché with drenched clothes.

Ernest T. Bass said:

It takes OBEDIENT WORKS in doing what God says is necessary to be saved in believing repenting confession and baptized. Then once one has obeyed and is in a saved state he MUST continue to do goods to maintain that saved position (Eph 2:10)

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Ernest, believing in Rom 10:9 only comes once and then you are sealed until redemption. Remember, we serve a God of peace not confusion.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Ernest T. Bass said:

You misunderstand God's grace that God's grace is conditional and requires men to meet the conditions and meeting conditions on a free gift does not, cannot earn the free gift of God. Again, grace charis means favor extended AND favor returned. So grace does NOT mean God extends favor and man in return does nothing for being idle cannot save. Doing no works is the same as being disobedient to God's commands, unrighteousness.

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No Ernest, God's love is unconditional. We just have to believe it is. How do you get to that point?

A - Admit you're a sinner
B - Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead
C - Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord

Ernest T. Bass said:

could not earn God's free gift:

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Right, we can't earn His free gift, so why are you working to keep it?

Heb 13:8 said:

BOL, the symbolism represents the action that took place, Jesus dying on the cross. When we come to faith in Christ (Rom 10:9) we become a part of His body and also His blood because we believed in the shedding blood of Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. We believe what He did on the cross is true, that he died for our sins and rose again on the third day. God bless.

Matt 26:18 He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'"

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 Cor 10:16-17 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

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When I read gibberish like this - I just see you digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself where you have completely perverted the meaning of the verses you presented.

For example - there's nothing "symbolic" about 1 Cor. 10:16-17. It's a commentary on the reality of the Eucharist. Matt. 26:28 is the institution of the Eucharist and Matt. 26:18 is the preparation for the Eucharist.

BreadOfLife said:

I just see you digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.. Eucharist institution

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deeper hole? BOL, there's no holes where Christ is concerned, only freedom.

Matt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

God bless.

Eph.2;
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bible teaches us times are now different..

Before ...... works were needed.....

But now ............ we no longer need to them. The Cross saved us........Thank You JESUS..

Ages to come.......... I guess we will know when it is here...... it will be different.