Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

Taken said:

You are concerned with challenging "IF" what was BEING TAUGHT, (a New Covenant) was IN EFFECT, for men Learning ABOUT (and IF "THEY" the New Covenant.....BEFORE Christ Jesus, ACTUALLY Died.

Do you consider, Jesus IS the Lamb of God?
Do you consider, Jesus IS the Word of God?
Do you consider, while the foundation of the Earth was being laid (before mankind was Formed out of the Earth)....that Lucifer KILLED the Word of God? Physically? No.

He KILLED the Word of God.....BY....Stating A LIE, that was IN CONFLICT with the Word of God.

John 8:44
....a murderer and liar from the beginning.

What was his LIE?
Isa 14:13. 14:14
....that he would rise ABOVE God...

What did he KILL?
John 8:44
....the Word of God.

Jesus was the Word of God IN the Beginning...and the Word of God IN the NT.

Jesus DOES NOT Change. He is the SAME forever.

Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, to day, and forever.

Faithful men in the OT were accounted as Righteous.
Faithful men in the NT and forward WHO believe and Kept in belief VIA the Indwelling Power of God, ARE forever accounted Righteous.

NO man can be an occupant of the Lords Kingdom, UNLESS, the man become Born Again.

If that was ONLY EFFECTED, "AFTER" men "WITNESSED" Jesus hanging dead on the Cross....you would have to ELIMINATE the possibility for men of the OT to become BORN AGAIN....

Men "WITNESSING" Jesus' bodily DEATH, was a FULFILLMENT of Prophecy.....However WE are given Historical Knowledge AND Additional Knowledge....

The Word of God was KILLED....before mankind was created.

The Word of God was Centuries later...revealed; In the Flesh, Called by the Name; Jesus, Called by the Title; the Son of God.

So Still I disagree with you, that your argument is valid.

God Bless,
Taken

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Do you understand the difference between OT Judaism and NT Christianity? That there were different laws/commands to follow under Judaism than under Christ's NT law? Do you understand that under the OT law of Moses they did not have the blood of Christ to remit sins therefore they had no way to be justified other than flawless perfect law keeping which they could not do? This is why Paul would say under the OT law "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Gal 3:11-12. The OT law could not justify, it was not of faith. Paul then says "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,.." The laws under the OT are different from under the NT so it was not possible that the theif could be saved under the NT gospel for Christ had not died, not shed His blood (Hebrews 9:22) nor was the NT gospel even in effect (Hebrews 9:16-17). Therefore Acts 2:38; Rom 10:9-10 was not part of the OT law so the thief was not accountable to these verses as we are today who live under the NT gospel.

The thief argument fails logically and Biblically. The thief is not an example of how one today is saved no more than the publican of Luke 18. Being a Jew under the OT law, the publican was physically born into a covenant relationship with God. We under the NT law are not physicially born into a NT covenant relationship with God but must be spiritually born again.

Neither the thief nor the publican are examples of how men today become saved under the NT gospel so both are failed arguments. But they are 'straws' that those who follow the man made teaching of 'faith only' have to grasp and they will not let go of grasping at these two straws.

Heb 13:8 said:

What gives you the impression that 2 Cor 5:1-10 is also about nonbelievers. Believers are written all over these passages.

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"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad"

Heb 13:8 said:

So not one OT saint will be in paradise? Either he's in paradise or not. You're trying to find loop holes to make works salvation fit, and you sound ridiculous.

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I never said such, putting more words in my mouth. What I have said is theif was not saved under the NT gospel but under the OT law therefore he is not saved in the same way those under the NT are.

Heb 13:8 said:

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make. They're not saved in the same way meaning what?? All the OT saints go to hell??

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Under the OT law they did not have the shed blood of Christ and the Hebrew writer says without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

So under the OT they had to offer the blood of bulls and goats that could NOT remit sins and there was remembrance of their sins. So they under the OT law could not be justified by faith Gal 3:11-12.

Yet under the NT we do have the shed blood of Christ, we are justifed by faith when one obeys Christ's NT laws in repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

Major differences under the OT law from the NT gospel.

Ernest T. Bass said:

No one here is perectly sinless but God does not expect perfect sinlessness but a faithful obedience which includes confession and repentance of sins for times when one fails.

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One still must obey Christ's NT to be saved for grace does not nullify God's law/commands Romans 6.

Heb 13:8 said:

So have you accepted Christ as your Lord and savior yet?
Jesus loves you BOL, and He wants you to surrender fully.
God bless

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Can you show me where the Bible says that this in (RED) is necessary for salvation?
Chapter and verse, please.

I surrender fully to Hi, when I am obedient to His Church - as HE prescribed (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, Acts 9:4-5).

Taken said:

I will agree, Paradise WAS in the Garden of Eden.

I believe it WAS then IN the Comfort side of Hell, with Abraham and other saved souls.

Now I believe it IS now IN Heaven."WHERE" Jesus' BODY IS, and the Living souls of saved men whose body's wait in the grave to be resurrected.
2 Cor 12:4



Visable...that any man can see? No.
Within SAVED and BORN AGAIN men? Yes.

AND? When that man Bodily dies?
His living soul goes to heaven, AND is in Paradise WITH Jesus, WHOM "their soul can SEE".....

And THEN shall SEE the Lord "as He IS"....when their body is raised and changed,
And shall then later OCCUPY the Lords Kingdom, "paradise" on earth...
Rev 2:7



Adam SAW Paradise..ie the Garden.
Abraham SAW Paradise...ie Comfort side/ hell
SAVED souls of dead body's SEE Paradise...
Ie...in Heaven with Jesus.

Men in their body's on earth, with a saved and born again Soul and Spirit.....DO NOT SEE Paradise.....

Until ... their body has been transformed and glorified.

God Bless,
Taken

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I know nothing of the comfort side of hell you are on about.
Hell is hell to me.
Jesus body in Heaven ? Do our body's go to heaven ?
Adam was in the garden, Paradise.

One who is saved is in Paradise spiritually speaking, as such is born again and is of Jesus Life and Jesus said I have come that you shall have life more abundantly, such is Paradise.
No one goes to Heaven until your body is dead and your Soul only goes too Heaven.

Ernest T. Bass said:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad"

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Ernest, 2 Cor 5:1-10 is a message to believers in Christ only. ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.

Ernest T. Bass said:

What I have said is theif was not saved under the NT gospel but under the OT law therefore he is not saved in the same way those under the NT are.

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Ernest, Paradise is for OT and NT saints. You're not making sense bro.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Yet under the NT we do have the shed blood of Christ, we are justifed by faith when one obeys Christ's NT laws in repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

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No, we are justified by faith when one believes. Submitting to H2O baptism is like sacrificing goats for sin. Do we sacrifice animals in 2018?

Ernest T. Bass said:

Major differences under the OT law from the NT gospel.

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Yes, and the difference is the shed blood of Christ. It's one thing to know about it, it's another thing to actually believe in your heart that He died for your sins. Belief is what separates the sheep from the wolves.

BreadOfLife said:

I surrender fully to Hi, when I am obedient to His Church - as HE prescribed (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, Acts 9:4-5).

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And yet you don't believe it is finished at the cross. You're still working for your salvation.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Matt 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

God bless

Heb 13:8 said:

You're still working for your salvation

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Sadly in my 3 decades with the Lord, this is what I find in one form or another, regardless of which fellowship I have attended........I remember when one of my children were quite little and wanting to try to do something I already knew she couldn't do...But it was always better for me to let her give it a go, and then ask :" Are you done?"..Then when SHE came to the realization she couldn't do that herself, she was better at receiving my help.
I think all of us have a bit of that in us, wanting to show our Lord how good we are, or how much we can do, even from a right heart...I also think that He handles it all with His usual good humor and a wide smile........We are like children trying to tell a rocket scientist how to build a rocket to go to Mars, when we think we can speak on Gods behalf, at times when He hasn't instructed us to do so, nor made the Truth plain to us about a certain thing..
We must be so funny to Him at times....

Taken said:

You asking me such questions IS astounding!
I said nothing to the contary.





Bluntly...your argument fails.
Jesus spoke, saying ... "you shall be saved"..
Jesus ALSO spoke, saying ... "you ARE saved"...

IOW - Jesus revealed the "IF".
"IF" one Believes IN the Lord (in ones heart);
Their FAITH saves them.

Even Jesus speaking "as if" it was aleady Accomplished, IT CAME TO PASS for every man WHO believed in his heart, BEFORE Jesus' body died, and His Blood given.

How could Jesus SPEAK in "first present tense", when it had not yet come to pass?
Because He is the TRUTH and KNOWS ALL THINGS!

The thief Confessed Belief TO the Lord.
We KNOW, the Lords Blood had to be spilled, and His bodily death occur.....
As soon as Jesus' Body died, Which was the same day as the thief's body dying....The Lord Himself fulfilled the prophecy THAT DAY, and THAT DAY, the Lords BLOOD covered the sins of the thief, and THAT DAY, the thief's "soul" was present with the Lord's "soul" IN Paradise.

It is the same EXACT thing, that happens to ANY man IN BELIEF, who bodily dies today, that his living soul goes to be with the Lord...in Heaven.

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I have never said the thief was not saved. This issue is this:

How was the thief saved? Under what law was the thief saved?

The thief was saved under the OT law by Christ forgiving his sin in person. Therefore NO ONE today can honestly, Biblically say they are like the thief. Christ is not on earth personally forgiving men their sins. Christ left earth some 2000 years ago and left behind His NT gospel as His authority that we today are under. And His NT gospel requires belief, repentance confession and baptism. So again, no one today can Biblically say they were saved just as the thief. "Belief only" does not save under the NT gospel. The thief was not even saved by belief only.

Taken said:

Ya, it is. Today, we are well aware Jesus' blood was shed and covers our forgiven sin.

During the time the thief died, it was the exact same day Jesus bodily died...

Jesus' blood covered the Thief's sins, and the thief's soul was WITH the Lord's soul in Paradise. Same thing today with a faithful man.

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This is further reason your argument fails. Hebrews 9:22 says without shedding of blood there is no remission. When Christ promised the thief paradise Christ had NOT shed His blood so there was no way the thief could have all his sins remitted by the shed blood of Christ. When Christ was ON EARTH He had power to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6) as He did with the thief. So once again, Christ is NOT on earth today personally forgiving sins as He did with the thief. Therefore no one can accurately, honestly say they are saved the way the thief was saved.

Taken said:

Well, no kidding.

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Yes, no kidding. It proves characters as the thief or the publican who lived under the OT law are not examples of how men today are saved under the NT gospel.

Taken said:

IF you reject the Lord saving the Thief...that's you. I have no need to convince you otherwise.

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This is a straw man for I have never said the thief was not saved. Again, the issue is HOW was he saved and under WHAT LAW was he saved.
He was saved under the OT law BEFORE Christ shed His blood by having Christ in person forgive His sins while Christ was on earth per Matthew 9:6. Therefore NO ONE today is saved in the same manner as the thief.

Taken said:

What do you mean....."man made teaching of "FAITH ONLY" ?

IT "IS" FAITH ONLY...that saves a man.

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Faith only is generally attributed to Martin Luther, not Christ nor any of His Apostles. Luther perverted God's word by ADDING the word "only" to force the idea of faith only into the Bible. Then he had to attack James who clearly, plainly says one is NOT justified by faith alone.

Christ requires one believe John 8:24; repent Luke 13:3 confession Matthew 10:32-33 and be baptized Mark 16:16.

It is evident from Christ's words that all the belief only in the world will never save the impenitent person. Belief only will not save the one who will not confess Christ. Belief only will not save the one that does not obey the gospel by submitting to baptism. Belief only only leaves one lost.

Taken said:

Man made? Uh...

Luke 7:50
....thy faith HAS SAVED you...

I think you confuse....RECEIVING FAITH...which IS a gift from God.....

WITH a (NATURAL) man FULFILLING, fulfilling the COMMANDS of Jesus.....BEFORE receiving FAITH.

God Bless,
Taken

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sigh.....once again you are running back to a woman (Luke 7:50) who lived under the OT law, before Christ died and shed His blood, before the NT gospel existed and in effect. We see why you run back to the OT law is because you cannot find an example of one being saved by faith only under the NT gospel. It is a fact the gospel was not in effect until some point AFTER Christ died, Hebrews 9:16-17. After Christ died and right before He ascended back to heaven He left His great commission with His disciples and Luke's account of the great commission says "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." So the NT gospel with its teaching requiring repentance and remission of sins did not begin yet, it would begin in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost we have the first recorded gospel sermon as preached by Peter. Per Christ's words of Luke 24:47 Peter was "in Jerusalem" where he preached "repentance" and be baptized in the name of the Lord for "remission of sins" exactly as Christ said. This gospel message was not taught to the thief, the publican or the woman of Luke 7:50 for they were UNDER THE OT LAW NOT THE NT GOSPEL. Therefore they are NOT examples of how we today are saved under the gospel of Christ by "repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins" per the Holy Spirit's words given to Peter by inspiration.

Here is the main point...no where in the Bible can you show anyone in from Acts 2 forward when the gospel was first preached or with its requirement of repentance and remission of sins an example of one single person being saved by faith only. This is why you keep running back to those that lived under the OT law for you cannot prove faith only from the NT gospel. Any and everyone that will be saved today must be saved under the NT gospel and its requirements of belief repentance confession and baptism. No one can be saved by the OT law for it cannot justify Galatians 3:11 as the NT gospel can. Furthermore Christ took the OT law out of the way making it inactive, ineffective nailing it to His cross and replaced it with His NT gospel, Hebrews 10:9


Lastly Romans 10:5-17 shows that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith therefore is not a gift in the sense one can have only have faith if God gives it to him. Such an idea makes God a respecter of persons as to who will or will not be saved. God does not randomly choose certain individuals and unconditionally give them faith separate and apart from the word or separate and apart from man's volition.

Eph.2:

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:

1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Heb 13:8 said:

Ernest, 2 Cor 5:1-10 is a message to believers in Christ only. ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.

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It refers to ALL, EVERY ONE as the WHETHER one did good or bad/wicked/evil. Christian are the ones that do good and be saved while the lost will be those that done bad/wicked/evil.

The NT mentions ONE judgment where all, good and evil will stand before Christ's judgment seat. Here and in Romans 2:6 where "every man" will be judged according to his deeds/works and not according if he had faith only or not.

Heb 13:8 said:

Ernest, Paradise is for OT and NT saints. You're not making sense bro.

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I never said it wasn't so this is yet another straw man. Youself and others are avoiding the issue and the issue is HOW was the thief saved and under WHAT LAW was the thief saved.

He was saved under the OT law by Christ personally forgiving his sins. Therefore it is not possible for anyone today to be saved exactly like the thief. (I give more information in my post to "Taken" on this)

Heb 13:8 said:

No, we are justified by faith when one believes. Submitting to H2O baptism is like sacrificing goats for sin. Do we sacrifice animals in 2018?

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NT faith INCLUDES baptism.
Ephesians 2:8----------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Peter 3:21-------------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is "one faith" Eph 4:4-5, one way to be saved no alternatives then a NT faith must and does include baptism.

Heb 13:8 said:

Yes, and the difference is the shed blood of Christ. It's one thing to know about it, it's another thing to actually believe in your heart that He died for your sins. Belief is what separates the sheep from the wolves.

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And under the OT law the thief did not have the shed blood of Christ to take away his sins as we do under the NT gospel. When Christ promised the thief paradise Christ had not died nor shed His blood nor had been resurrected from the dead therefore the thief could not believe Christ died for His sins or believe in His heart God "hath raised" Christ from the dead as required by Romans 10:9. The thief remains nothing but grasping for straws for those that push the man made teaching of faith only. As in my post to Taken, the faith onlyist must run back to the OT law to attempt to justify faith only for they cannot show one example under the NT gospel (Acts 2 forward) of anyone saved by faith only.

Grams said:

Eph.2:

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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"Not of works" refers to works of merit and not obedience to Christ. Paul said in Romans 6:16-18 that one obeys from the heart that form of doctrine then he is freed from sin/justified. So Paul puts obedience before justification in Rom 6 and would not contradict himself in Eph 2 by eliminating obeying from the heart. In Romans 6;6 Paul said we serve one of two masters, we serve either:

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve #2 obedience unto righteousness. The man made teaching of faith only eliminates #2 for them.....leaving them with a very bad master to serve.

Grams said:

Romans 5:

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Grams said:

1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

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Rom 5:1 says "justified by faith" and NOT justified by faith only. Luther perverted God's word by adding the word "only" to it.

Romans 5:1------------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-----------------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify
Rom 6:16-17---------------------obey from the heart>>>>>justified/freed from sin


The Bible is its own best commentary. Since there is just ONE way to be saved/justified and no alternatives, that must mean faith is a work, faith is obeying from the heart that form of doctrine. Faith is obeying God in doing what God says one must do in to be saved in repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. So a NT faith includes repentance confession and baptism. Forcing the man made idea into the Bible brings contradictions and confusion to scriptures.

were oh were did you get that all from ????????????????????????????????

not true........................

Heb 13:8 said:

And yet you don't believe it is finished at the cross. You're still working for your salvation.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Matt 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

God bless

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WRONG.

I believe Jesus's redemptive work was finished at the cross.
HOWEVER - if YOU believe that anybody was saved at the cross - you don't know Christ.

ALL were REDEEMED (paid for) at the cross. Salvation, however, requires our cooperation with God's redemptive grace.

We must . . .
- Be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

- Pick up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

- Do works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

- Obey his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)

- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)

- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Nope.....

12 REASONS THE BELIEVER

IN THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD

IS ETERNALLY SECURE

This is way to long to post.... so you can go to this and read..

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/12REASONSFORETERNALSECURITY.htm