The Ascension of Christ

I have considered much more then just a literal view to get my opinion But the fact it has been discussed many times only atests to the fact we dont have a clear cut answer I just can not ignore what I see in scripture in favor of mens discussions I dont trust men and for the translations thats why I go back to the original and take the whole of text and Biblical structure into account.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is the only time we are told we will be gathered (caught up) the one and only time The dead are raised first, All will be changed, flesh can not enter heavenSatan is prince of the air until Christ returns there is no where for anyone to fly away to Lies of men twisting of the word LAST greek word eschatos:1) extremea) last in time or in place last in a series of placesc) last in a temporal succession2) the lasta) last, referring to time of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earthc) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowestThis is what Gods word says what was taught by the apostels Christ return at the last 7th trump to gather his flock only after 1830 did this Pre tribulation trash come into being it is not writtem in Gods Word and I defy anyone to show me a scripture saying it does.

Kirss,is this last post for this thread???

I started a thread sometime back "touch me not" and it was replaced by this one..since then I have been doing some studing and thought I would share it.......It is sometimes argued that the disciples could not have received the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday (the day that Jesus was resurrected) because the Holy Spirit was not able to be permanently received by anyone until after the Ascension (when Jesus physically ascended back up to heaven). This view is based on the following passages: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7) "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever" (John 14:16) "After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight." (Acts 1:3-9) In the first two passages above, it appears that the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) could not permanently come to the disciples until after Jesus had "gone away" to the Father. Then in Acts 1:3-9 (above) we see that Jesus "went away" 40 days after the Resurrection by ascending up to heaven. If the Holy Spirit was not able to be permanently received by anyone until after the Ascension then the disciples could not have received the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday.On the surface, this sounds like a strong argument. However, there is an assumption being made here, and assumptions can easily lead us into error. This argument assumes that Jesus was referring to the Ascension when He said that He had to "go away" before the Holy Spirit could be sent. But is this really what Jesus meant? The only way to know for sure is to prayerfully, honestly, and objectively search for the greatest weight of evidence in Scripture so that we can see the full picture of what Jesus meant in John 16:7 (above).

What we're about to see is that Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and then He came back to the earth later that same day. Watch how several different lines of evidence all lead to that conclusion: According to Acts 1:3-9 (above), the Ascension happened almost a month and a half (40 days) after the Resurrection. But look what happened on the night before Jesus was crucified: "It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father." (John 13:1) Just before the Last Supper, on the night before Jesus was crucified, He knew that the time had come for Him to leave this world and go to the Father. Is this referring to the Ascension, which was still a month and a half away, or did Jesus leave this world and go to the Father at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection? As we will see, He went to the Father on the day He was resurrected. Now look at what He said to the disciples on the night before He was crucified: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe." (John 14:28-29) Jesus said that He was going to the Father and then coming back to the disciples, and then they would believe the things He said about Himself. When did the disciples believe these things? On the day that Jesus was resurrected (John 20:19-31). On Resurrection Sunday, Jesus went to the Father and then returned to the earth, just as He had promised He would. Here's another one: "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:5-7) On the night before Jesus was crucified, He said that now He was going to the Father. He was not referring to the Ascension because that was still a month and a half away. He was referring to the time of His crucifixion and resurrection. Then Jesus said that unless He "goes away," the Counselor could not come. Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and that is why He was able to impart the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit to the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday.

I agree with you setfree I had thought we had come to that same conclusion on the touch me not thread.But maybe not everyone got that.

I did not go back to that thread...I just remembered it was closed and was being discussed here. I thought I would share with everyone my notes since then. I have gathered a lot more information."I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one." (John 17:11) Once again, on the night before He was crucified, Jesus said that He was just about to go to the Father. Here's another one: "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them." (John 17:13) Once again, on the night before He was crucified, Jesus said that He was just about to go to the Father. All of these passages tell us that on the night before Jesus was crucified, He repeatedly said that He was returning to the Father now (not in a month and a half at the Ascension). Jesus went to the Father and then returned to the earth on the day He was resurrected. That's why the disciples were able to receive the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation on the evening of Resurrection Sunday.

Thanks for bringing it back to the front I agree with You and think its an import fact for everyone to have straight in their minds. God Bless

When Jesus said, "Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you" (John 16:7), He was specifically referring to the time of His death and resurrection, not the time of the Ascension. Watch how this fits with the events that happened on Resurrection Sunday. That Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene was at the tomb before dawn: "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance." (John 20:1) The risen Jesus appeared to Mary and told her that He had not yet returned to the Father. Then He told her to tell the disciples, "I am returning to my father": "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"" (John 20:17) On the morning of Resurrection Sunday, Jesus said that He was just about to go to the Father! Now, consider that Bible translators often have to make an interpretation of a passage in order to find the right English words to use. In this passage the NIV says "Do not hold on to me," but several other translations of the Bible (including literal translations) say "Don't touch Me" instead. So which translations are correct? The Greek word that is used in this passage is haptomai, which means: "To apply oneself to, to touch. Refers to such handling of an object as to exert a modifying influence upon it" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.245, emphasis added) It turns out that the NIV never translates this Greek word as "hold on to" except in John 20:17 (above). Why? Because "hold on to" is not the normal meaning of this Greek word. The NIV translates haptomai as "marry" in 1 Corinthians 7:1 and as "harm" in 1 John 5:18, but in all of the other occurrences of haptomai in the New Testament, the NIV always translates it with the word "touch." That is the normal meaning of this Greek word (here are the references: Matthew 8:3, 15, 9:20-21, 29, 14:36, 17:7, 20:34, Mark 1:41, 3:10, 5:27-31, 6:56, 7:33, 8:22, 10:13, Luke 5:13, 6:19, 7:14, 39, 8:44-47, 18:15, 22:51, 2 Corinthians 6:17, and Colossians 2:21).

So for some unexplained reason, Jesus told Mary that morning not to touch Him because He had not yet returned to the Father. But watch! That evening, Jesus specifically told the disciples to touch Him. Something had changed: "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. ... Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me ["Do not touch me"], for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"" (John 20:1,17) "While they [the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday] were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."" (Luke 24:36-39) "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit." If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."" (John 20:19-23) Notice the sequence of events: On Sunday morning, the risen Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet gone to the Father. Then He told Mary to tell the disciples that He was going to the Father. [Then He went to the Father.] That evening, He had returned from the Father and He told the disciples to touch Him! They believed that He had risen from the dead, and they received salvation (see Romans 10:9). Then Jesus breathed the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit into the disciples as an exact parallel of breathing spiritual life into Adam. Notice that Jesus did not say to the disciples what He had said to Mary that morning: "Do not hold on to me ["touch me"], for I have not yet returned to the Father." Why didn't He say this to the disciples? Because He had already gone to the Father and returned back to the earth. When Jesus said that He had to go to the Father before the Holy Spirit could be permanently received by anyone, He wasn't talking about the Ascension. He was talking about Resurrection Sunday. That's why the disciples were able to receive salvation and the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected.

During Jesus' earthly ministry, sometimes the disciples were not able to understand what He was talking about. Here are some examples: "At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him." (John 12:16) "Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."" (John 13:7) "(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)" (John 20:9) However, when Jesus appeared to the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday, He opened their minds so that they could understand the Scriptures: "While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. ... Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures." (Luke 24:36-37,45) Why did Jesus wait until after His death and resurrection before opening their minds to understand the Scriptures? Because the Bible tells us that without the Spirit we cannot discern the things that come from the Spirit of God: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) This means that unsaved people (unregenerate people) cannot understand the spiritual truths in Scripture, as this prominent evangelical Bible commentary points out: "Since only spiritual people are able to receive spiritual truths, it follows that the man without the Spirit, an unregenerate person, would not and could not receive the message of wisdom regardless of his intellectual abilities or accomplishments" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.510) Before Jesus died and was resurrected, the disciples did not have the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit and therefore they sometimes could not understand what Jesus was talking about. But on the evening of Resurrection Sunday, Jesus was able to open their minds so that they could understand the Scriptures. Why? Because they were now saved and they had received the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit, which allowed them to understand these spiritual truths on Resurrection Sunday. We have seen that Scripture is very consistent, and we have seen that various different lines of evidence all point to the same conclusion. The disciples were able to receive salvation and the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit on the evening of Resurrection Sunday because Jesus had already gone to the Father and then returned back to the earth. When Jesus said that He had to "go away" before the Holy Spirit could be received by people (John 14:16 and 16:7), He was not referring to the Ascension.

I don't mean to say that I am right about this, but I used to take it as this."Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father" = do not touch me for my wounds have not yet been fully healed.Later, all the wounds are fully healed that He thus show His hands (nailed), and side (pierced) to His disciples.

Never heard that one, for the wounds to heal.I Think from scriptures is shows that he did go to His father after the ressurrection and before He ascended.But we all have to come to our own conclusions!